Martial Artists and Spanking

[thardey]

Oh, yeah, the above process is for when they are willfully testing you. If they simply aren't paying attention, then a quick "Pop" (noise more than pain) is all you need.

 

[Bigshadow]

I have a 6 month old son, and my wife and I are deciding how to discipline, and how to be consistent about it, which we believe is extremely important. A lot of it will have to depend on his personality as it develops.

Consistency is very important! But I don't want to get side tracked from the OP.

 

[Sukerkin]

Thanks for letting me rant and remember these are just my views and I make no judgements on anyone else.

You may feel secure in the knowledge that you are certainly not a lonely voice in the wind on this one . I have made substantially similar points a few times ... anyone want a time-share on a soapbox :lol:.

 

[CTKempo Todd]

I have a 6 month old son, and my wife and I are deciding how to discipline, and how to be consistent about it, which we believe is extremely important. A lot of it will have to depend on his personality as it develops.

I have, however been around horses for all of my life, and I grew up in the new "Horse Whisperer" type of mentality. For those who don't know, it's against the idea of "Breaking" a horse's spirit, but instead tries to gain the trust and loyalty of the horse, so that it wants to please you. Instead of a master/slave type of relationship, you want a rider/friend type of relationship.

Something that I learned from that regarding physical force as punishment is that horses can take a lot before they submit, and if you rely on that with a strong-willed horse, then you have to always increase the pain to keep the horse obedient. You have to get harsher bits, meaner spurs, and more and more contraptions to keep the horse in check. This is a bad tack to take. (Whoops, no pun intended).

Instead horses hate to be left out of the herd, that's a more effective punishment for them -- to feed them last, or to cut short a training time and put them in a stall while you are paying attention to a different horse, etc. But if you just ignore them, they never learn what they did wrong.

So, with horses, (and my current plan is to try this with my son, since we're ultimately herd animals ourselves), when they do something wrong, you have to let them know right away that you are displeased. Often this is a quick pop on the neck, or making noise, or sometimes even just waving your hand at their face, but it never is painful or degrading, it's just an instant message that you are unhappy.



Then, after that is when you administer whatever actual punishment is appropriate (for horses, a "time out" works very well). You HAVE to be firm, or the horse learns that you can be manipulated. After the punishment period, you then HAVE to take the time and re-unite with the horse, to "let them back into your herd".

In this way, the horse learns that 1.) What behaviors are appropriate or not, 2.) That you can't be manipulated, and 3.) Even if you are upset, the horse still has your unconditional acceptance in your life not based on performance.

It's a time consuming process, and it's a pain when they test you right as you are about to leave for work, and you have to go through the whole process, but horses are too big and dangerous to just let that stuff go.

If it sounds terrible suggesting that I treat childred like animals, remember that the guy who is the current guru on this subject, John Lyons, also takes in foster kids, usually middle-or-high-school boys, and uses variations of this idea with them, with some very good results.

As kids get older, there are different ways to give them that "instant feedback", which may or may not be spanking -- I think it depends on the kid's temperment. But when they're little, they just don't understand reasoning or consequences yet.

No disrespect intended here but get back to me when you're son is about 7 and spits on his friend's mom after you've alreadty told him once to stop. Then "whisper" into his ear that he will get time out if he does it again...LOL

Sorry man..I couldn't resist. Sincerely though, congratulations and best of luck with the new family.

 

[Bigshadow]

(This is how I was brought up and my parents did a damm good job if I do say so myself LOL)

I really don't disagree with you at all. However, I did want to say this... Just because my parents did something and I turned out OK, doesn't necessarily mean what they did was the best way to achieve that end. I firmly believe that each generation should strive to do things better than the one before. So I tried to improve upon what my parents did tempered with my own experience as a child. Sometimes, parents teach us what NOT to do, rather than what TO do.

In my opinion we are raising kids from a very early age in a consequence free environment. This is translating to having a bunch of punks as teenagers who cannot have anything done to them because again there are no consequences (starting when they were little). Remember when you walked up to a Police office or a Firemen and you had amazing respect and admiration for them? Remember how you would not DARE raise your voice to your mother because you were afraid of CONSEQUENCES..

Great points!

Nowadays there is none of that..Kids never hear the word NO..they get everything they want..People stand in line at 2 AM and fight over toys at Christmas because it is now the PARENTS fearing the consequences if the child does not get what they want.

That is simply not true! I just don't buy that rationale. People don't go and do that because they FEAR consequences (well some might, but not anyone I know). I, like many parents want to give their children the best they can provide! They want their children to enjoy their childhood and yes, they are still taught choices and consequences. I want my child to have a BETTER childhood than I had. Just because computer games were not invented when I was 12 years old, doesn't mean I am going to supress that from my son. Now, I wouldn't wait in line at 2AM but I know parents that did and I can tell you for a fact, that it WASN'T out of fear of consequences, it was because they loved their child and wanted to surprise them with a christmas gift or birthday gift.

Now if they misbehave they get a 'time out' (what is this a sports contest!!) or get sent to a room packed with TVs and video games.

I don't know about that 'Time out' thing, somehow, after about age 3, I don't think that it is very effective (if at all), just my opinion, being that I never used it. I don't know about alot of parents, but if my son was sent to his room, his games and TV came OUT. Pretty simple eh! There are other ways of dealing with them too, not just sending them to their room. LOL

I also agree with positive reinforcement as well. That is a very good tool.

Very true!

Kids are a running the show these days and parents are no longer parents.

My grandfather (may he rest in peace) said those very words, when I was just a little boy.

 

[CTKempo Todd]

I really don't disagree with you at all. However, I did want to say this... Just because my parents did something and I turned out OK, doesn't necessarily mean what they did was the best way to achieve that end. I firmly believe that each generation should strive to do things better than the one before. So I tried to improve upon what my parents did tempered with my own experience as a child. Sometimes, parents teach us what NOT to do, rather than what TO do.



Great points!



That is simply not true! I just don't buy that rationale. People don't go and do that because they FEAR consequences (well some might, but not anyone I know). I, like many parents want to give their children the best they can provide! They want their children to enjoy their childhood and yes, they are still taught choices and consequences. I want my child to have a BETTER childhood than I had. Just because computer games were not invented when I was 12 years old, doesn't mean I am going to supress that from my son. Now, I wouldn't wait in line at 2AM but I know parents that did and I can tell you for a fact, that it WASN'T out of fear of consequences, it was because they loved their child and wanted to surprise them with a christmas gift or birthday gift.





I don't know about that 'Time out' thing, somehow, after about age 3, I don't think that it is very effective (if at all), just my opinion, being that I never used it. I don't know about alot of parents, but if my son was sent to his room, his games and TV came OUT. Pretty simple eh! There are other ways of dealing with them too, not just sending them to their room. LOL



Very true!




My grandfather (may he rest in peace) said those very words, when I was just a little boy.

As far as doing things better than our parents..I don't simply don't think its happenning. The level of disrespect and disobedience is rampant in this country. Kids misbehave, don't get punished and don't care.
Unfortunately parents who care are more and more becoming the minority..When I got wacked on the rear end by my father as a kid, believe me I deserved it and never repeated the offense. I rarely got spanked, but when I did..I always remembered what I did wrong.

I never said anything about supressing video games..I have no problem with them..Heck I still play them..
However with regard with these people that sit there and 2 Am in Walmart and your going to tell me it is because they love their children? What a front...I simply think its assinine..In my opinion it was the parents who were going to be made happy when the children opened their gift. Its like when a kid is whining and crying and misbehaving and the parents says..If you stop crying I'll buy you a toy...

How about teaching patience? My kids wanted a Nintendo Wii for Christmas..Of course I could not find one so I gave the kids the option..Wait until the were available and I could walk in and buy one or get something else..They decided to wait which I was very proud of there choice. They stuck to there guns about what they wanted but were willing to sacrifice and show patience which I was very proud of..A month and a half later, they were rewarded with a Wii. Did it ruin Christmas? OF COURSE NOT. They got plenty of gifts and had tons to play with and we were together as a family which is what Christmas is for...NOT get what I want WHEN I want it..

Agree about sending to their room...However neither of my daughters have a TV or Phone in their room..Of course mhy 13 year old wants it but its unnecessary. The kids have a separate room for a TV.

Fun topic and its all good.. At least we care!

 

[Bigshadow]

Unfortunately parents who care are more and more becoming the minority..

That certainly seems to be happening. No doubt.

I never said anything about supressing video games..I have no problem with them..Heck I still play them..

I know you didn't. I was just using that as an example. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Sorry if it seemed that way.

However with regard with these people that sit there and 2 Am in Walmart and your going to tell me it is because they love their children? What a front...I simply think its assinine..In my opinion it was the parents who were going to be made happy when the children opened their gift. Its like when a kid is whining and crying and misbehaving and the parents says..If you stop crying I'll buy you a toy...

It isn't that cut and dried. I know parents that waited in line, because they wanted to get it in time for christmas. It wasn't because the child was pitching a tantrum for it. In fact, the kids never knew they were getting them. I personally think that is stupid to go wait in line. In fact, I prefer shopping online whenever possible.

How about teaching patience? My kids wanted a Nintendo Wii for Christmas..Of course I could not find one so I gave the kids the option..Wait until the were available and I could walk in and buy one or get something else..They decided to wait which I was very proud of there choice. They stuck to there guns about what they wanted but were willing to sacrifice and show patience which I was very proud of..A month and a half later, they were rewarded with a Wii. Did it ruin Christmas? OF COURSE NOT. They got plenty of gifts and had tons to play with and we were together as a family which is what Christmas is for...NOT get what I want WHEN I want it..

The kids made a good choice, that is an important lesson. However, if they don't know they are getting it and haven't asked for it, then they tend to be quite patient. LOL But, yes, they must learn patience.

Fun topic and its all good.. At least we care!

True! These sorts of issues tend to be very fuzzy and it is difficult to put everyone in one box or the other, there is a spectrum of opinion from the polar opposites. I think a good many folks fall somewhere in the middle, at least I try to be optimistic about the number, as it seems to be forever dwindling.

 

[thardey]

No disrespect intended here but get back to me when you're son is about 7 and spits on his friend's mom after you've alreadty told him once to stop. Then "whisper" into his ear that he will get time out if he does it again...LOL

Sorry man..I couldn't resist. Sincerely though, congratulations and best of luck with the new family.

Whisper?????? At 7 he's still in range for a good "POP"! And I don't know what we'll do for the "punishment" phase yet, I guess it will depend on what will affect him the most. I just know the "time out" works for most horses. When I was a kid, I loved to have time alone, but I got grounded from certain toys or pastimes instead.

I guess my point was that I don't intend to use the spanking itself as the punishment, just a primer for it. That's more or less how I was raised, and I never felt abused or belittled, or was pushed to violence because of it.

It's like the old Louisiana Mule Story: A farmer loaned his mule to his neighbor, telling him that it was the easiest mule to work with, and he'd do anything you asked him.
So the neighbor hook the mule up to his wagon and says "go". The mule just stood there. So he smacks it -- the mule just stood there. Tries all kinds of stuff -- the mule just stood there. Finally he gets the farmer, who grabs a 2x4 and whacks the mule right between the eyes. The mule stumbles, shakes it off, and stands back up. The neighbor was stunned. "I thought you said he'd do anything you asked!!!"
"He will, you just gotta get his attention first!"

But as far as the Original Topic goes, I learned that there was a difference between spanking and bullying, and I knew the difference the instant some of my friend's dads would come around.

I saw that my Dad "administered" spankings because he was in control -- it was a stark contrast to some other dads I saw who threatened to spank in order to regain control -- does that make sense? I guess I could sense that they were on the verge of losing control of the situation, which made me want to push them over the edge, so to speak.

Now I can instantly pick out someone who uses force to bolster their own insecurities, and someone who is already secure, and the proper use of force flows naturally out of it.

I lerned not to mess with the secure ones.

 

[CTKempo Todd]

Whisper?????? At 7 he's still in range for a good "POP"! And I don't know what we'll do for the "punishment" phase yet, I guess it will depend on what will affect him the most. I just know the "time out" works for most horses. When I was a kid, I loved to have time alone, but I got grounded from certain toys or pastimes instead.

I guess my point was that I don't intend to use the spanking itself as the punishment, just a primer for it. That's more or less how I was raised, and I never felt abused or belittled, or was pushed to violence because of it.

It's like the old Louisiana Mule Story: A farmer loaned his mule to his neighbor, telling him that it was the easiest mule to work with, and he'd do anything you asked him.
So the neighbor hook the mule up to his wagon and says "go". The mule just stood there. So he smacks it -- the mule just stood there. Tries all kinds of stuff -- the mule just stood there. Finally he gets the farmer, who grabs a 2x4 and whacks the mule right between the eyes. The mule stumbles, shakes it off, and stands back up. The neighbor was stunned. "I thought you said he'd do anything you asked!!!"
"He will, you just gotta get his attention first!"

But as far as the Original Topic goes, I learned that there was a difference between spanking and bullying, and I knew the difference the instant some of my friend's dads would come around.

I saw that my Dad "administered" spankings because he was in control -- it was a stark contrast to some other dads I saw who threatened to spank in order to regain control -- does that make sense? I guess I could sense that they were on the verge of losing control of the situation, which made me want to push them over the edge, so to speak.

Now I can instantly pick out someone who uses force to bolster their own insecurities, and someone who is already secure, and the proper use of force flows naturally out of it.

I lerned not to mess with the secure ones.

I hear you bro...
I couldn't resist giving you a shot in the arm and agree with everything you said...and David as well for that matter...

 

[thardey]

I hear you bro...
I couldn't resist giving you a shot in the arm and agree with everything you said...and David as well for that matter...

It's all good - I know I don't know what I'm doing yet, and my wife knows that better than anyone!

 

[Bigshadow]

If only children came with instruction manuals!

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I wonder if chuck norris ever spanked his kids? I'm guessing he's dead against it.

 

[RED]

I wonder if chuck norris ever spanked his kids? I'm guessing he's dead against it.

Chuck Norris' kids come out fully developed adults that can bench press a truck.

 

[Dave Leverich]

I think it's the people who worry about what kind of discipline... that don't have the kids we worry about. The fact that you care about your children will come through, granted some will have much different approaches, I guess that's why we all come out so differently heh.

Myself, I've maybe spanked my kids 4-5 times ever (between both), and it's almost always as a very real consequence for not heeding direction into something that is dangerous or life threatening.

Aka, the 4th time he ran into the street without looking and the car screeched to a stop.. if he didn't learn that lesson... well I'm not going there, but my first job is to protect my children. He looks now.

I do find that I tend to reason much more than I remember Dad doing, but it's hard to say as I'm on the other side of that fence now. Maybe I just glazed eyed those times as a kid.

I fully agree that everyone needs to learn that we have consequences for our actions, that you can't simply reason and explain your way out of every situation... Some things, have inescapable results. I do feel if _every_ time a parent deals with the child, it's simply explaining, the child will learn that basically you can talk your way out of any situation. Unfortunately, not true in this world.

Anyway, great points on both sides, I know that we all do our absolute best to make our children the best people we can figure out how to.

As far as being a martial artist and spanking... I think I have a better understanding of force and damage, and therefor spank MUCH more safely than someone without that physical understanding. Given, they are exceedingly rare moments. Call it a 'speed swat' if you will, sting but no damage, the entire intent is to break through to them (often that 'dad' voice is enough, in fact 99+% of the time it is).

Ramble ramble, great posts all.

 

[Brother John]

I think it's the people who worry about what kind of discipline... that don't have the kids we worry about. The fact that you care about your children will come through, granted some will have much different approaches, I guess that's why we all come out so differently heh.


As far as being a martial artist and spanking... I think I have a better understanding of force and damage, and therefor spank MUCH more safely than someone without that physical understanding. Given, they are exceedingly rare moments. Call it a 'speed swat' if you will, sting but no damage, the entire intent is to break through to them (often that 'dad' voice is enough, in fact 99+% of the time it is).

Ramble ramble, great posts all.

GREAT REPLY!!!!!!!!
Excellent points there Dave!
Thanks

Your Brother
John