Martial Artists and Spanking

[Ping898]

I think my mom did it well, I was spanked, but the way I was spanked was her basically "clapping" her hands by resting on hand palm up on my butt and hitting it, so I felt some pressure and heard the noise of the slap, but there was never any pain...I think it worked well. I think if you do it right the fear of a spanking can be almost as effective as the spanking itself....I think I was maybe 6 or 7 the last time I was spanked, if not younger....

 

[DavidCC]

Our daughter does not respond to negative reenforcement well. It just makes her worse.

I hope she learns to before she becomes and adult... it's pretty much the way of the world, isn't it?


I try to spank my daughter but her downward blocks are just too good haha

 

[Brother John]

If you practice a martial art where you train to use force only as a last resort, would this apply to using force to discipline your own children? As a martial artist and a parent, how do you rationalize the use of force with spanking? As a martial artist, how do you view spanking in general?

I don't see the issues of being a martial artist and chosing to use corporal/physical punishment on ones children related.

Your Brother
John

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't see the issues of being a martial artist and chosing to use corporal/physical punishment on ones children related.

Your Brother
John

Both regard the use of physical force don't they? Both could be veiwed as a form of pain compliance couldn't they?

 

[Brother John]

Both regard the use of physical force don't they? Both could be veiwed as a form of pain compliance couldn't they?

hmm...
their motives, methods, purposes and means are different.
Pounding a nail into a wall also involves physical force.
Torturing supposed terrorists is also a form of pain compliance.
Neither have much of anything at all to do with martial arts OR the judicious and conscientious use of corpral punishment on ones children.

just don't agree I guess.

Your Brother
John

 

[Makalakumu]

Many martial skills have nothing to do with defending oneself and have everything to do with subduing or making someone else comply with your wishes. If you spank a child for discipline, aren't you using force in order to make them comply with some sort of criterion you have established?

Also, if you strike your child's bottom with your hand, you are essentially applying force to another person's body with a part of your body are you not?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Point that came up in a recent discussion.

I know several moms who are emphatically anti spanking. They say they'd never, ever strike their children.

And yet two of those moms think nothing of using any of the 'mommy jitsu' nerve holds we all know and love. You know, that one at the elbow, or the hand on the shoulder with the thumb on the collarbone. The ones mom would use when you were thinking about acting out in public, to steer you in the right direction.

I don't grok the difference there. Not that I'm anti spanking or against mom-do. I just don't groove on hypocrisy.

 

[Makalakumu]

Point that came up in a recent discussion.

I know several moms who are emphatically anti spanking. They say they'd never, ever strike their children.

And yet two of those moms think nothing of using any of the 'mommy jitsu' nerve holds we all know and love. You know, that one at the elbow, or the hand on the shoulder with the thumb on the collarbone. The ones mom would use when you were thinking about acting out in public, to steer you in the right direction.

I don't grok the difference there. Not that I'm anti spanking or against mom-do. I just don't groove on hypocrisy.

Neither do I. That is why I started this thread. I think that alot of people have alot of unexamined assumptions about spanking and disciplining children and these assumptions, IMHO, just happen to have parellels to some types of training.

And I have totally been the victim of mommy jutsu. My mother had five boys and when we got bigger then her, she develped some joint locking skills that could have you dancing and coming along when nothing else worked.

Funny, some of those locks involved the ears...

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Many martial skills have nothing to do with defending oneself and have everything to do with subduing or making someone else comply with your wishes. If you spank a child for discipline, aren't you using force in order to make them comply with some sort of criterion you have established?

Also, if you strike your child's bottom with your hand, you are essentially applying force to another person's body with a part of your body are you not?

I dont think so. Spanking isnt "forcing compliance" because its administered after a bad action has been completed. The child still has the choice to continue the bad behavior in the future and face the punishment. "Forced compliance" , by definition forces someone to do something, it is like a cop batoning your arms to get you to put your arms behind your back. Spanking is immediate feedback/punishment. Spanking, when done as a disciplinary act sends the message that actions have consequences. My daughter last got spanked when she had a tantrum, refused to hold hands in a parking lot, pulled away and ran into the lot. Fortunately there were no cars passing by. She got an immediate and firm swat on the backside. Both for the refusal to hold hands when told and for willfully running off into a dangerous situation. I didnt "force compliance", she ran into traffic. And she had the choice to do it again. Its been her decision to not do it again. I am the parent, I DO SET THE CRITERION FOR BEHAVIOR. Full stop, period.

 

[Brother John]

Many martial skills have nothing to do with defending oneself and have everything to do with subduing or making someone else comply with your wishes. If you spank a child for discipline, aren't you using force in order to make them comply with some sort of criterion you have established?

Also, if you strike your child's bottom with your hand, you are essentially applying force to another person's body with a part of your body are you not?

I guess I'm just saying that defeding oneself and subduing a person in combat is very different than using corpral punishment on your child.

If I use an arm-bar and affect the nerve behind your elbow in order to cause the immediate pain shock that will get you to step forward and perhaps go to one knee...putting me at a more advantageous position to your disempowered position; then I've used pain compliance to control your body in combat.
If my son tells me that he's stollen something from the store, I tell him to sit on the edge of his bed....that I will come back in 5 minutes to give him his punishment. Then five minutes later I come in, talk to him about what he did, why it's bad, why I can't let something like that go on without consequences that get and keep his attention (putting it in terms HE could understand though, I don't talk like this to my little boy)...then I give him five swats on his rump, then set him on the bed next to me while we discuss what he should have done. Later I tell him that I love him and believe he'll do better next time....
These two instances are very different and bare no similarities other than bodily contact was made and there was some pain involved in each. That's pretty much it, and its a shallow correlation.
Combat situation = A
Parenting situation = B

In A my life and well being was in danger, that's why I caused pain. I did it immediately and in a sense of urgency. My regard for this person was LOW and I didn't care that he 'understand' why I was causing him pain. In fact, the less he knows while I'm taking over control of his body through pain....the better. My objective was to mete out pain in order control the position of his body.

In B my life wasn't in danger. It was important that I NOT do it "Immediately"...but that I put a gap between my decision to use corpral punishment and the act itself, in order to ensure that I didn't use any kind of 'emotion' behind it. So NO urgency. My regard for my son is as HIGH as I could ever dream humanly possible!! THAT was my reason for doing this at all, so that I could better raise him to be a MAN that cares about right and wrong because he's had, from a young age....consistently.....the difference taught to him and impressed upon his conscience (By MUCH more than just this one form of discipline). I did it FOR his benefit, not mine. In A I did it for ME....to hell with HIM......this one, B, is the reverse of it. I HATE to have my son suffer pain or fear of being 'disciplined'. But I HATE HATE HATE the thought of him growing up without discipline, without having a father that teaches him in everyway the need and reason for being a "Good Man". So I do it. In B I did it NOT to control his physical body...but to impress upon his deep mind the Wrongness of his actions. I draw for him a strong correlation between what he did, it's nature....and what's happened to him as a result.

Yes; I use corpral punishment in raising my two kids. They're young: my son is 8 and my daughter is 6........and they ARE my life. I use it Sparingly, but I do use it. The PAIN itself isn't even the real punishment, the fear of it....those FIVE minutes of waiting and knowing that daddy completely disaproves of what you've done.....that's the anguish my kids feel. I'm glad they do too, because it tells my that I matter to them, that what others think of thim matters....and that goes a long way toward building a conscience that extends past our societies common message of "It's ONLY wrong if you get caught."

Currently I don't recall how long it's been since I've had to 'spank', but I think I've done it twice since his last birthday (Sept) for my son and once for my daughter in that time, so it's NOT often..... partly because, well..... I've been BLESSED with Good kids! ...and partly because they're getting raised well... and then again.....becuase NOT every circumstance warrants it.

It bares NO relationship or semblance to the pain I'd invoke in combat when defending my life, or the pain I train to doll out through the martial arts.

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

I dont think so. Spanking isnt "forcing compliance" because its administered after a bad action has been completed. The child still has the choice to continue the bad behavior in the future and face the punishment. "Forced compliance" , by definition forces someone to do something, it is like a cop batoning your arms to get you to put your arms behind your back. Spanking is immediate feedback/punishment. Spanking, when done as a disciplinary act sends the message that actions have consequences. My daughter last got spanked when she had a tantrum, refused to hold hands in a parking lot, pulled away and ran into the lot. Fortunately there were no cars passing by. She got an immediate and firm swat on the backside. Both for the refusal to hold hands when told and for willfully running off into a dangerous situation. I didnt "force compliance", she ran into traffic. And she had the choice to do it again. Its been her decision to not do it again. I am the parent, I DO SET THE CRITERION FOR BEHAVIOR. Full stop, period.

:tantrum::whip1:
:highfive:

silly pics!
Just thought I'd use them to be cute....

But Blotan-
VERY appropriate use of the one pop swat!! And GOOD way to put it.

I am the parent, I DO SET THE CRITERION FOR BEHAVIOR. Full stop, period

...as a correctional officer for troubled teens, I deal with LOTS of boys who NEEEEEEDed discipline at the right stage in life....and NEVER got it.

Discipline MUST BE Disciplined!!!!!! I think my brother Blotan would agree. You don't do it willy-nilly. (WOw....I actually used "willy-nilly" in a sentence) It's used for the proper reasons at the proper times and to the proper extent.
It's not abuse!
But it's absence, I think, can be negligence and neglect.

Your Brother
John

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I believe that in the desire to fight child abuse (and a righteous cause that is) we have branded any sort of corporal punishment as "abuse". A swat on the backside or even a slap to the face of a kid that calls you a mother****er (hope the built in censor works) is not abuse. I believe most state laws allow the use of physical force in child rearing. But it absolutely had to be done as discipline, not out of anger and restrained. The old days of switches, belts, paddles, yardsticks, wooden spoons etc. IS going too far by todays standards. Even though I may have tasted a few of those in my time . Like any discipline, it must be sure, immediate and appropriate. The sickos who injure, break, bind, burn etc. kids in the name of discipline belong behind bars.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

. But it absolutely had to be done as discipline, not out of anger and restrained.

I believe this is the key. Wanting to strike a child is the surest sign that you shouldn't. Corporal discipline administered calmly and appropriately is more effective anyway.

Getting mad and smacking your kid teaches them that the strongest dude in the room gets to smack the weaker ones. Calm, appropriate, consistent discipline (physical and otherwise) teaches that decisions carry consequences.

 

[Makalakumu]

I dont think so. Spanking isnt "forcing compliance" because its administered after a bad action has been completed. The child still has the choice to continue the bad behavior in the future and face the punishment. "Forced compliance" , by definition forces someone to do something, it is like a cop batoning your arms to get you to put your arms behind your back. Spanking is immediate feedback/punishment. Spanking, when done as a disciplinary act sends the message that actions have consequences. My daughter last got spanked when she had a tantrum, refused to hold hands in a parking lot, pulled away and ran into the lot. Fortunately there were no cars passing by. She got an immediate and firm swat on the backside. Both for the refusal to hold hands when told and for willfully running off into a dangerous situation. I didnt "force compliance", she ran into traffic. And she had the choice to do it again. Its been her decision to not do it again. I am the parent, I DO SET THE CRITERION FOR BEHAVIOR. Full stop, period.

I see your point about consequences, however, I still think that this is also an example of pain compliance. Did your daughter hold your hand after her swat? Was your feedback strong enough to get her to comply with your criterion for proper behavior? I have given my daughter a swat for the same reasons, the behavioral consequence and for the fact that what she was doing at the time was very unsafe and I needed her to cooperate RIGHT NOW because it was unsafe.

Can you see the similarities with situation and what would normally be termed as pain compliance?

 

[Makalakumu]

Currently I don't recall how long it's been since I've had to 'spank', but I think I've done it twice since his last birthday (Sept) for my son and once for my daughter in that time, so it's NOT often..... partly because, well..... I've been BLESSED with Good kids! ...and partly because they're getting raised well... and then again.....becuase NOT every circumstance warrants it.

My youngest is really too young to be spanked and he really doesn't need it anyway because he is so easy to redirect. My eldest is willful and stubborn but usually susceptible to reason and is all around a good kid. Almost all disciplinary situations have been solved with other means.

It bares NO relationship or semblance to the pain I'd invoke in combat when defending my life, or the pain I train to doll out through the martial arts.

For most of us who train in self defense arts, this is going to be true. The intent is totally different. However, sometimes the means aren't as different as we think. Mommy-do "come along" holds, pressure points, and controlled swats are tools. Sure, they are tools used for a different purpose, but they are tools none the less.

This may be a bit of a stretch for a lot of people and thats fine. I can understand if you don't think they are related AT ALL. However, I see a relationship and I feel that ethos I've developed as a martial artist can inform how I use these tools.

 

[Makalakumu]

Getting mad and smacking your kid teaches them that the strongest dude in the room gets to smack the weaker ones. Calm, appropriate, consistent discipline (physical and otherwise) teaches that decisions carry consequences.

I agree and I think that if you think about when using force is appropriate and how to control your mind so that you are in the correct mindset to use this, then I think you might see a parellel that I'm trying to address.

 

[CTKempo Todd]

Good topic
I thing the two items have NOTHING to do with each other..

One is teaching and learning the art/s of self defense and the other is the art of parenting. (if you have ever spanked your child when was the last time you did it with a spinning backfist?? The 2 are just not related)

As a parent, whether you decide to use spanking as a tool to bring up your child is your own business and yet another topic. (aside from being a martial artist and a parent).

My personal view...
As a parent of 2 girls (God Help me), one is going on 14 and of course challenges everything I say and the other is 8..I have in the past spanked each one when they needed a wake up call..(This is how I was brought up and my parents did a damm good job if I do say so myself LOL)

Those that are against spanking should not get on any soapbox and try to tell me its wrong. (Not saying anyone here is doing that so please no one take this personally). It is frankly none of your business. In my opinion we are raising kids from a very early age in a consequence free environment. This is translating to having a bunch of punks as teenagers who cannot have anything done to them because again there are no consequences (starting when they were little). Remember when you walked up to a Police office or a Firemen and you had amazing respect and admiration for them? Remember how you would not DARE raise your voice to your mother because you were afraid of CONSEQUENCES..

Nowadays there is none of that..Kids never hear the word NO..they get everything they want..People stand in line at 2 AM and fight over toys at Christmas because it is now the PARENTS fearing the consequences if the child does not get what they want. Now if they misbehave they get a 'time out' (what is this a sports contest!!) or get sent to a room packed with TVs and video games.

I also agree with positive reinforcement as well. That is a very good tool. However there are times discipline needs to be enforced.

Kids are a running the show these days and parents are no longer parents.

Thanks for letting me rant and remember these are just my views and I make no judgements on anyone else.

I feel better..

 

[Bigshadow]

If you practice a martial art where you train to use force only as a last resort, would this apply to using force to discipline your own children? As a martial artist and a parent, how do you rationalize the use of force with spanking? As a martial artist, how do you view spanking in general?

Wow, great question!

My thoughts about spanking has been formed from my childhood where my parents did do that and some other bits of research, but I am not sure just how much my martial arts training has affected. I really don't think spanking is useful. It seems to me to be an excuse for the parent to vent their anger. There are much better methods of punishment.


Anyway, I have rarely spanked my son in 12 years, maybe once or twice max. However, a pop on butt is not out the question when they are young. When a child is very young they have a very short attention span. At that age, a quick pop (not a spanking) on the hind end is an extremely effective way to get their immediate undivided attention! I have always reserved this for situations where disobeying would cause my son or someone harm and anything along that line. As they get older, I don't think this is an effective tool. I believe as they get older and understand concepts and values, other methods are more effective in achieving the desired outcome.

Nowadays, I can talk to my 12 year old son and have him understand the gravity of the situation without resorting to spanking. Worst case, he gets something taken from him or is punished in other ways that he can rationalize and understand the consequences of his actions.

However there are two things I have seen parents do that I refuse to do as I believe is psychologically damaging and that is slapping the face and belittling the child. Regardless of what my son does, I do not do these things. It is important for him to understand what he did wrong but not at the expense of his esteem.

 

[CTKempo Todd]

However there are two things I have seen parents do that I refuse to do as I believe is psychologically damaging and that is slapping the face and belittling the child. Regardless of what my son does, I do not do these things. It is important for him to understand what he did wrong but not at the expense of his esteem.

I absolutely agree with David with this comment as well. Spanking can't be done out of frustration or anger (maybe being calm in the face of a storm as a trained martial artist relates here) and yes, like David there comes a point and an age where spanking is pointless and creates rage and anger.

 

[thardey]

I have a 6 month old son, and my wife and I are deciding how to discipline, and how to be consistent about it, which we believe is extremely important. A lot of it will have to depend on his personality as it develops.

I have, however been around horses for all of my life, and I grew up in the new "Horse Whisperer" type of mentality. For those who don't know, it's against the idea of "Breaking" a horse's spirit, but instead tries to gain the trust and loyalty of the horse, so that it wants to please you. Instead of a master/slave type of relationship, you want a rider/friend type of relationship.

Something that I learned from that regarding physical force as punishment is that horses can take a lot before they submit, and if you rely on that with a strong-willed horse, then you have to always increase the pain to keep the horse obedient. You have to get harsher bits, meaner spurs, and more and more contraptions to keep the horse in check. This is a bad tack to take. (Whoops, no pun intended).

Instead horses hate to be left out of the herd, that's a more effective punishment for them -- to feed them last, or to cut short a training time and put them in a stall while you are paying attention to a different horse, etc. But if you just ignore them, they never learn what they did wrong.

So, with horses, (and my current plan is to try this with my son, since we're ultimately herd animals ourselves), when they do something wrong, you have to let them know right away that you are displeased. Often this is a quick pop on the neck, or making noise, or sometimes even just waving your hand at their face, but it never is painful or degrading, it's just an instant message that you are unhappy.

Anyway, I have rarely spanked my son in 12 years, maybe once or twice max. However, a pop on butt is not out the question when they are young. When a child is very young they have a very short attention span. At that age, a quick pop (not a spanking) on the hind end is an extremely effective way to get their immediate undivided attention!

Then, after that is when you administer whatever actual punishment is appropriate (for horses, a "time out" works very well). You HAVE to be firm, or the horse learns that you can be manipulated. After the punishment period, you then HAVE to take the time and re-unite with the horse, to "let them back into your herd".

In this way, the horse learns that 1.) What behaviors are appropriate or not, 2.) That you can't be manipulated, and 3.) Even if you are upset, the horse still has your unconditional acceptance in your life not based on performance.

It's a time consuming process, and it's a pain when they test you right as you are about to leave for work, and you have to go through the whole process, but horses are too big and dangerous to just let that stuff go.

If it sounds terrible suggesting that I treat childred like animals, remember that the guy who is the current guru on this subject, John Lyons, also takes in foster kids, usually middle-or-high-school boys, and uses variations of this idea with them, with some very good results.

As kids get older, there are different ways to give them that "instant feedback", which may or may not be spanking -- I think it depends on the kid's temperment. But when they're little, they just don't understand reasoning or consequences yet.