Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

[Rich Parsons]

You will never hear me say that kata is not a training tool. The question is that if a martial art can be successful without kata practice, why does kata exist in some styles? Is it simply because of tradition? Is karate somehow more difficult to learn without kata practice?

. . .

Hanzou,

In many a FMA there are drills that are nothing more than a two man kata or form or what ever name one applies to them.

I have also see straight kata for FMA's as well.

Do I personally like them? Not really.

Do I teach them? Yes.


Why? I have seen some not able to get their hips into a strike until they did a simple Block / Strike Kata over and over and got better at it.
It is a tool that can be done alone to give repetition a chance to build upon. (* of course one can argue that if they practice wrong - different topic - different discussion *)

 

[drop bear]

Boxing body shot.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j03-Bhh5anA

The common fault is breaking at the hip. And not developing your comfort in a deep stance.
Fixing boxing structure.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YSfJ6abYtFE

This is where all that deep stance training and over emphasised moment can come into play. Get low move around low. And then when you have to do it right for that split second your body does not force yourself to cheat.

You are training a greater range of motion than just training out of a fighting stance.

 

[drop bear]

Wrestling stance. Low and deep and what can't we do?

Break at the hip.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wji1jm_kEM

Double leg movement in a deep stance.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X3xKwQcDKM0
Random karate kata. Low and deep movement that does not break at the hip.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Scs8v4qto

If all kata did was teach that it is a worthwhile training aid.

 

[Tez3]

who did? Chojun Miyagi founder of Goju died in the 1953, Tatsuo Shimabuku founder of Isshin Ryu died in 1975, Masutatsu Oyama founder of Kyokushin died in the 1990s. All believed in the benefits of Kata

Not if they are still effective and work. Also that would depend on what you want out of Karate

Sport based schools do The Judo I was taught didnt remove anything.
Again it also depends on what you want out of Karate. And Judo isnt Karate its Judo


I dont follow? In every sense I need it to

Your arguing a point nobody made. Nobody said you must train Kata or else your a faliure. Id argue your not learning the Karate the way it was designed by its founder but again it all depends on what you want out of Karate. You also speak of Karate like its one thing and its not

Again your opinion is Kata doesnt develop overall fighting ability and I disagree


Look you came into the Karate section of this forum to tell Karate guys the bedrock of what they do some here for decades is basically crap. Its not going to fly here in the Karate section. Try that nonsense in a different section you may get a better response. You dont like Kata great dont do it. Your not going to change anyones mind here

The founder of Wado Ryu karate, Hironori Ōtsuka Sensei lived until 1982, he was teaching right up to then so we have plenty of people who know how the kata's should be done, what they are for etc. having been taught by the master himself.

 

[Cirdan]

I must say denying that drills can produce results is a very weird line of thought for me.

 

[drop bear]

I must say denying that drills can produce results is a very weird line of thought for me.

It is a bigger subject than that though.

It is solo drills vs partner drills vs compliant vs non compliant and how much time and focus should be spent to get the best results. They all have their pros and cons.

And that is before we even get to the idea that if somone does not like kata they are being mean or something.

 

[Tez3]

It is a bigger subject than that though.

It is solo drills vs partner drills vs compliant vs non compliant and how much time and focus should be spent to get the best results. They all have their pros and cons.

And that is before we even get to the idea that if somone does not like kata they are being mean or something.

No one here has said not liking kata is mean 'or something', what we don't understand is someone who clearly doesn't like kata moaning about doing it, why would you? Yet again the answer is simple, don't do kata is you don't like it. We get that there's people who don't like it, what we don't get is why those people who don't like it disrespect those who do by saying it's rubbish. It seems to be the fashion now to disrespect those whose views don't agree with yours. Kata is what it is, something you love, hate or have not much of an opinion on. fine but why do those who dislike kata feel the need to rubbish it? It doesn't float your boat fine it doesn't, but why try so hard to prove it 'doesn't work' or that it's 'pointless' to those who are happy with how it works for them.
I don't think everyone should be training kata and Bunkai, it might be useful if they understood it better and stopped using what they think it is against those who do use it though. Arguments like this aren't ever going to be resolved and go around and round in circles getting increasingly more bitter.

Is the OP coming back or having put the cat among the pigeons is not going to comment any more?

 

[drop bear]

No one here has said not liking kata is mean 'or something', what we don't understand is someone who clearly doesn't like kata moaning about doing it, why would you? Yet again the answer is simple, don't do kata is you don't like it. We get that there's people who don't like it, what we don't get is why those people who don't like it disrespect those who do by saying it's rubbish. It seems to be the fashion now to disrespect those whose views don't agree with yours. Kata is what it is, something you love, hate or have not much of an opinion on. fine but why do those who dislike kata feel the need to rubbish it? It doesn't float your boat fine it doesn't, but why try so hard to prove it 'doesn't work' or that it's 'pointless' to those who are happy with how it works for them.
I don't think everyone should be training kata and Bunkai, it might be useful if they understood it better and stopped using what they think it is against those who do use it though. Arguments like this aren't ever going to be resolved and go around and round in circles getting increasingly more bitter.

Is the OP coming back or having put the cat among the pigeons is not going to comment any more?

You don't understand somone who doesn't like kata moaning about having to do it? He likes karate doesn't like kata. Thinks karate would be better without it. That is not really rubbishing kata just stating a personal opinion.

I don't like kata and don't do it and yet could still find reasons why people would do kata. It is a discussion on training techniques. Simple as that. So those who don't like kata can have discussion on why they don't like it. Just like you can say why you do like it.

And believe it or not we can do this with out getting all emotional.

Accusing people of not understanding kata is a cop out by the way. If they don't understand explain it. If you disagree counter argue. Attacking the poster is what leads to bitter threads. And where I do it on purpose. Yo do it as well and I don't think you realise it.

Why isn't OP here?
He was getting attacked. Maybe he was chased off this forum for a friendlier one.

 

[ballen0351]

Why isn't OP here?
He was getting attacked. Maybe he was chased off this forum for a friendlier one.

Or his accounts under review because there was something shady going on

 

[Tez3]

You don't understand somone who doesn't like kata moaning about having to do it? He likes karate doesn't like kata. Thinks karate would be better without it. That is not really rubbishing kata just stating a personal opinion.

I don't like kata and don't do it and yet could still find reasons why people would do kata. It is a discussion on training techniques. Simple as that. So those who don't like kata can have discussion on why they don't like it. Just like you can say why you do like it.

And believe it or not we can do this with out getting all emotional.

Accusing people of not understanding kata is a cop out by the way. If they don't understand explain it. If you disagree counter argue. Attacking the poster is what leads to bitter threads. And where I do it on purpose. Yo do it as well and I don't think you realise it.

Why isn't OP here?
He was getting attacked. Maybe he was chased off this forum for a friendlier one.

No I don't understand someone doing kata when they don't like it. why would you do something you don't like? I don't like breaking boards, I don't see the point in it so I don't do it but I don't whinge about how it's a waste of time, it's not my waste of time, I don't do it! Others get a lot out of doing it so it's great for them. ( oh I can btw and have done only it was roof tiles)

A very new beginner doing a style and finding certain parts of it pointless and thinking the style would be better off without it certainly is moaning.

I'm not 'accusing' people of not understanding it, and why you think people are getting 'emotional' puzzles me. If you are aiming that at me because you think women get emotional, that would make me laugh big style.

People who don't understand kata and then moan about it being useless aren't wanting to understand it they want to moan and say they get on fine without it. If they want to understand it they will, they still don't have to use it. There has been enough links on here and explanations of people's various understanding of kata and it's uses so telling us to explain is a tad patronising.

The OP set the tone of the debate, he can't then complain if a. he receives robust rebuttals or b. doesn't post again.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Or his accounts under review because there was something shady going on

I don't know what the mods are investigating his account for. Maybe he was a troll, maybe not. If not, maybe he will come back and add something to the conversation. That said ...

It's not particularly unusual for someone to appreciate some aspects of a martial art they are practicing, but not care for others.

This might be because they haven't spent enough time in the art to understand the value of the part they don't appreciate or it might be that they understand it well enough but will never care for it anyway.

If this aspect is central to the art as the instructor understands it, then the student has the choice of either sucking it up and practicing the parts they don't like along for the sake of the parts they do like or else moving on to a different art or school. If they do stick with the art, perhaps down the line they will become an instructor and leave out the parts they don't think are useful or important. This is part of how we get new systems.

If a student does choose to stay in a given art, despite the presence of certain aspects they don't care for, there's nothing too terrible about occasionally venting, wishing things were different, or seeing if anyone else feels the same way.

The key word there is occasionally. More than that and you're just being an annoying whiner. Besides, if you're going to stay in the art anyway for the parts you like, you're going to have to practice the other parts anyway. You might as well listen to the folks who have studied the parts you don't like in depth. Maybe they'll have some insight that will allow you to get more value out of those aspects of your training.

 

[EddieCyrax]

....I don't know why we even bother with Kata?.......For self defence purposes its asinine to waste time .........Why can't karate just do away with Kata and teach the moves within kata in an alive manner?.........There is 0 logic in having a solo training method as part of a class group, it just wastes time.

Karate seems to be built on lineage and instructors seem terrified to deviate from the path that their teachers laid out and their teachers teacher before them. Just because your teacher taught you to do kata doesn't make it right. If karate has elements of all ranges of combat inherent in its kata, then it must be treated as such properly and trained in a modern alive way. Much like the striking segment of Kyokushin is, in competition format.

I would love it if Kyokushin just stuck to stand up and competition rules stuff as it would have a strong identity doing so. But when it is watered down with Kata and those elements are not elaborated upon, it just becomes weaker due to tradition. Why can't Karate grow up like other modern arts? Its self defence applications are severely weakened by these lazy training methods.

Does anyone else share these gripes?

I agree with Tez that the OP set the tone of this discussion. His lack of understanding lead to his thoughts.....Ideally he should of had this conversation with his instructors (terrified to discuss topics in person?!?). I believe the community attempted to educate the kata training method.

Success.....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the school environment, you should take advantage on the availability of partners. You should spend your training time mainly in "partner training" and not in "solo training". After your instructor has taught you the Kata/form, he should help you to polish it through "partner training" and let you to work on your "solo" at home when partner is not available.

 

[Chris Parker]

This has been a fun one…

Tori isn't the corresponding word, it's the opposite word. Uke = receive, tori = 'give'. usually used in relation to demos or teaching one person is the tori the other the uke.

Small point here, but no, "tori" (&#21462 doesn't mean "to give"… it's actually the opposite, and means "to take", or "catch/capture"… and, in this instance, refers to the person "taking/performing" the technique. The term has achieved prominence from Judo, where Kano derived it from the terms "ukemi" (受け&#36523, meaning "receiving body", the person who has the technique performed on them (those that "receive" the technique), and "torimi" (取り&#35211, meaning "catching body", the person who "catches" the enemy. For the record, the usage of "uke/tori" is not universal by any means… a range of older systems use quite different terminology, for a range of reasons… Aikido uses "uke" and "nage" instead of "tori"… and then you have the weapon arts, who have similar, or completely different terms.

You will never hear me say that kata is not a training tool. The question is that if a martial art can be successful without kata practice, why does kata exist in some styles? Is it simply because of tradition? Is karate somehow more difficult to learn without kata practice?

I think it's about time to take this in another direction… rather than explain (again and again) what kata are, perhaps we can start with your understanding and expectation of what it is… and go from there. So, with that in mind, can you say what you personally think kata is actually for? You note that it is a training tool… what do you think it's actually training and teaching?

When it comes to the idea of a martial art being successful without kata, sure… but I have to say, so what? Different arts have different aims, different contexts, different methodologies, different ideals, and more… it's like saying that some cultures cuisines work well without having pasta in their menus… that doesn't invalidate the cuisines, nor does it prove anything about pasta… of course, the first question comes back to what you think kata is actually for… before you can say whether or not it's "needed"...

A person who lived over 100 years ago. Shouldn't the art evolve over time?

No. You're not looking at the art, you're looking at your personal values and beliefs… which might be applicable, or might have nothing at all to do with it. For instance, if you walk into my classes with that idea, you'll be told fairly quickly that you're missing the point.

For example, judoka revere Kano, but that hasn't stopped judo coaches from removing kata from its syllabus.

Some coaches (sport/Olympic) might not teach kata… but I haven't heard of any actually being removed from the syllabus (which is the Kodokan syllabus, not a personal coaches…).

It "works" in what sense?

That's the question… for a moment, I'd like to invite you to leave off your personal expectations of what a martial art is about, and look to what kata is actually designed for.

Again, we have other styles, even some karate styles, that have abandoned kata completely and turn out just fine.

Look at what their context is, and what they're "just fine" for… for instance, all the "karate" systems I've seen that have abandoned kata have, to my mind, completely missed the point, and are deeply lacking in a large number of ways… so I'd question what you mean by "just fine"…

If we're spending a good portion of class time on kata just because of tradition, shouldn't that class time be spent on something a bit more applicable to the development of overall fighting ability?

Why? The issue here is that you're expecting all martial arts to be what you think they should be… and that all aspects should address that (false) ideal. You train karate to learn karate… part of that is, or can be, fighting ability… but that's far from the whole story.

Oh, and just because I noted you didn't answer earlier, can you say what "high rank" you achieved in under a decade training in Shotokan?

 

[Tez3]

Ah well 'tori' still isn't the same as'uke' though LOL! Very good post, it is getting very tiring going over the same things without any result.

I tried Judo kata once, my instructor's first style was Judo, far too hard on the knees for me, vey interesting though all the same. Not what you imagine it to be either when you say Judo.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, well, that's going to depend on which kata from Judo's rather large list… I recently took my guys through the Kime no Kata… that has 8 kata from seiza, and 12 standing… other sets, such as the Koshiki no Kata are all standing, although they often finish in a half-kneeling position… same with the Itsutsu no Kata… the katame no kata are all on the ground… the nage no kata all start standing, and often remain there… and so on and so forth…

 

[Hanzou]

A large part of why I've stopped responding to this thread is because Tez made the earlier point that if you don't like kata, you shouldn't be training in arts that practice kata. I thought that was a good point, and re-reading some of my posts in this thread, I realized that my stance was pretty selfish and one-sided. I left karate because I didn't like how it was taught among other things. That certainly doesn't apply to everyone, and I shouldn't act like it does.

So I do apologize for arguing in that fashion, it wasn't necessary or justified. I got a bit carried away with my own distaste for kata and my personal anger regarding my time spent in Shotokan. Karate isn't going to change, nor does it need to change. If you enjoy kata and/or how your art is taught, by all means keep doing it. If not, you should find another art that better fits your needs and desires.

Thanks for the post Tez, I know we don't agree on much, but I did appreciate your post.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if you don't like kata, you shouldn't be training in arts that practice kata.

I don't think kata should prevent you from training a certain system.

I don't like form but I have trained my long fist system all my life which has many forms. I don't train the long fist form any more but I still train the long fist system. It gives me all the kicking/punching tools that I need.

IMO, you are the master and your style is you slave. You should train your system "the way that you want to train" and not allowing your system to force you to train the system wants you to train.

In the following clip, the "groin kick, face punch combo" should work both in the ring and also in the street. It should have nothing to do with "style" but just a logical kick/punch combo. It's the information inside the form that's important and not the form itself.

Of course you don't need to train form to learn this kick/punch combo. But it doesn't hurt to have it "recorded" in the form so people would know this combo existed in the ancient time.

 

[Tez3]

A large part of why I've stopped responding to this thread is because Tez made the earlier point that if you don't like kata, you shouldn't be training in arts that practice kata. I thought that was a good point, and re-reading some of my posts in this thread, I realized that my stance was pretty selfish and one-sided. I left karate because I didn't like how it was taught among other things. That certainly doesn't apply to everyone, and I shouldn't act like it does.

So I do apologize for arguing in that fashion, it wasn't necessary or justified. I got a bit carried away with my own distaste for kata and my personal anger regarding my time spent in Shotokan. Karate isn't going to change, nor does it need to change. If you enjoy kata and/or how your art is taught, by all means keep doing it. If not, you should find another art that better fits your needs and desires.

Thanks for the post Tez, I know we don't agree on much, but I did appreciate your post.

To be fair you did give it a go, it's a shame you didn't get the training in kata that would give you a different perspective on it but that doesn't mean you would have liked it more! The problem with many instructors perhaps is that aren't teaching what is really the style, many reasons for this with money probably being the foremost one. Belt promotions are often seem as a money maker, so performing katas is done for the tests, just learning the movements and nothing else. I would hate that as well. Others don't like kata because they weren't taught what you could do with it or they preferred to just teach the 'exciting' stuff which many people want, the sparring.

The OP as a beginner would have been better asking if what he was doing in class was what was expected, whether other classes did this. The answer may well have been no. The class he is in may have concentrated too much on kata, e don't really know because it was a rant about kata, something he didn't know about though he claimed he knew many styles well. Instead what we got was how he thought kata should be thrown out. Imagine if it had been mostly sparring he hated and wanted that thrown out!
The best thing is to be happy in what style you do, life is too short to train anything you aren't progressing in, don't enjoy and is probably costing too much money.
thank you Hanzou, I'm betting we can agree on a lot more. x

 

[Chris Parker]

A large part of why I've stopped responding to this thread is because Tez made the earlier point that if you don't like kata, you shouldn't be training in arts that practice kata. I thought that was a good point, and re-reading some of my posts in this thread, I realized that my stance was pretty selfish and one-sided. I left karate because I didn't like how it was taught among other things. That certainly doesn't apply to everyone, and I shouldn't act like it does.

So I do apologize for arguing in that fashion, it wasn't necessary or justified. I got a bit carried away with my own distaste for kata and my personal anger regarding my time spent in Shotokan. Karate isn't going to change, nor does it need to change. If you enjoy kata and/or how your art is taught, by all means keep doing it. If not, you should find another art that better fits your needs and desires.

Thanks for the post Tez, I know we don't agree on much, but I did appreciate your post.

That'd be fine if that's what you were actually saying (just that you didn't like kata)… except it wasn't. What you were saying was that kata "didn't work"… "wasn't what you saw in sparring"… there was the constant rhetoric of kata not being "needed" in other arts (which denied the structure, history, ideals, beliefs, values, reasons, perspectives, and realities of both kata-based and non-kata systems on a huge number of levels)… lot's of implications that it was contrary to the skills, and so on… all of which while abjectly refusing to look at what kata actually is, or what it's designed to do.

Look, not liking kata is fine… no-one here has an issue with that as a personal opinion. You don't do kata based systems, you don't have to like it… you don't have to do it… and that's not a problem at all. You don't like it? Great. You have an opinion of it's worth for you? No issue. But, again, that's not what you were actually saying.

That said, are you able to go back and answer my questions from my previous post to you? It may help avoid such issues in the future… on both sides.

I don't think kata should prevent you from training a certain system.

I don't like form but I have trained my long fist system all my life which has many forms. I don't train the long fist form any more but I still train the long fist system. It gives me all the kicking/punching tools that I need.

Are you really training in Long Fist if you're not training Long Fist forms, though? I'll put to you the same question as I posited to Hanzou… what do you think forms/kata actually are teaching? Is it just kicking and punching methods?

IMO, you are the master and your style is you slave. You should train your system "the way that you want to train" and not allowing your system to force you to train the system wants you to train.

That I completely disagree with… if you can just do it however you like, what's the point of learning a particular system? You're there to learn that art… not to just do what you think is good. To be honest, I'd regard that attitude as one of arrogance.

In the following clip, the "groin kick, face punch combo" should work both in the ring and also in the street. It should have nothing to do with "style" but just a logical kick/punch combo. It's the information inside the form that's important and not the form itself.

Hmm… and what information do you think is there? Oh, and for the record, while I can see a form of application of what is seen in the video, I really wouldn't say that it is really equally applicable in each context… there's a fair amount that needs to change in both cases… and the form has everything to do with "style"… there's a reason it's done there, as well as why it's done the way it is… which is all about the particular style itself.

Of course you don't need to train form to learn this kick/punch combo. But it doesn't hurt to have it "recorded" in the form so people would know this combo existed in the ancient time.

It's got nothing to do with the "combo"… and yes, to do it the way that system does it, you do need to train that form. It's really not as simple as you're making it out to be...