Looking for written sources on TKD

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have to say that either you do not know many martial artists outside of TKD or that your definition of accomplishment and mine are quite different.

People often have different criteria. Depends on what is important to them or what standard they go by. Some consider Bruce Lee to be the greatest martial artist of all time. Others do not. Different criteria.

So again I submit the following Koreans who have accomplished what Choi did: Mas Oyama, Hwang Ki, Cho, Hee-il, Kim, Joeng-ho.

I would add Jhoon Rhee to that list as well.

Now the following non-Korean martial artists: Fumio Demura, Morei-Ueshiba, Gichin Funakoshi, Bruce Lee, William Cheung, Yip Man, Remy Presas, the Gracies...The list goes on.

Lets not forget Chuck Norris, lest he read this thread and realize he was slighted.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

I would add Jhoon Rhee to that list as well.

I thought about him as well, but wasn't sure if he had a world wide following. Definetly a leader in the US.

Lets not forget Chuck Norris, lest he read this thread and realize he was slighted.l

Let's face it Chuck Norris is the John Wayne of our time.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I thought about him as well, but wasn't sure if he had a world wide following. Definetly a leader in the US.

True. I don't know what degree of international following he has either.

Let's face it Chuck Norris is the John Wayne of our time.

Maybe he should have played Rooster Cogburn in the new True Grit film.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

No I simply pointed you to the words of GM Lee Chong Woo who said he made it up. So who is lying? Did GM Lee lie, because he stole this idea from Gen Choi?

Here is the translation is that you are talking about:

*

[Reporter’s Question]: Many Taekwondo textbooks set the time of Taekwondo’s
beginnings as the pre- Three-Kingdoms Period. Even with all the historical assumptions,
it seems somewhat extreme.

[Chong Woo Lee’s Response]: “I am one of those who wrote that in a book. To
be frank, we did not have much to come out with. At an early stage in the course of our
introducing Taekwondo to foreign countries, when we said ‘Taekwondo was a Korean
traditional martial art’, it was well justified and accepted. However, although there was a
resemblance, it is in fact different. Should we consult [Taekwondo’s] historical origins, it
could be persuasive to say that Japan adopted their martial arts form from the Chinese
martial arts, and it flowed into Korea later. Japanese people scientifically developed
them by making many modifications from the Chinese martial arts. It seems that there
remained a problem. Japanese people put emphasis on muscle strength rather than on
flexibility in the course of developing the form of exercise. Accordingly, you cannot
avoid the body movement being stiff.”

“With this, we started competitions in order to make Taekwondo a combative
sport. On the other hand, the Japanese kept Karate as an exercise form to be done by
oneself without competition. The Chinese developed a flexible exercise with interacting
[with a partner] hand movements. In this context, Taekwondo is not inclined to either
side, but lies somewhere in the middle. To make it easy to understand, it is neither right
nor left. Neither this nor that. Meanwhile, because we held competitions, we were able
to improve drastically. As a result, China and Japan are learning from us now.
Furthermore, their martial arts did not gain popularity, whereas in Taekwondo, young
children enjoy hitting and getting hit rather than fighting by themselves.”

***

"I am one of those that wrote that in a book." I was looking through my older english Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do books and they all have that same one or two page blurb in the introduction of their 500 or 700 page book. If you have a problem with that, then your problem isn't with the pioneers, or with GM LEE Chong Woo, it's with everyone who wrote a book, because they all do it. And frankly, no one takes that stuff seriously. I know I don't. But if you wish to give credit for this "lie", then credit General Choi. Afterall, you did tell us repeatedly that he wrote the first Taekwondo book in english, right?

Gen Choi attempted to link TKD to Taek Kyon, as that would save face for Koreans as the biggest influence on TKD was karate from Japan. Or at least the 7 Koreans that learned martial arts abroad & took it back to Korea starting the 6 early kwans all studied karate, with some Chinese influnce as well. Linking his TKD to Taek Kyon simply shows that Korea had some form a indigenous martial art at some point in time prior to the occupation. Well then I guess this is another contribution by Gen Choi, no?

So if General Choi does it, it's ok, but if others do it, it's not. Got it.

Gen Choi always made clear that he came up with his system from karate. He never hide those roots at all.

He didn't do that in his 1965 book.

 

[puunui]

Maybe he should have played Rooster Cogburn in the new True Grit film.

I liked the remake much more than the original, which was pretty good. Jeff Bridges was a terrific Rooster. The girl who played Mattie should win an Oscar for her performance.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I liked the remake much more than the original, which was pretty good. Jeff Bridges was a terrific Rooster. The girl who played Mattie should win an Oscar for her performance.

Thanks for the heads up! I'm hoping to see it this weekend.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

I liked the remake much more than the original, which was pretty good. Jeff Bridges was a terrific Rooster. The girl who played Mattie should win an Oscar for her performance.

I'm looking forward to seeing it too. Thanks for the info.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Making people feel welcome is one thing, but compromising their own established history is another. If the Kukkiwon leaders do not feel that the General's accomplishments were relevant outside of the ITF, then there really is no reason for them to acknowledge them. Why should a non KKW member require this in order to feel welcomed? It isn't as if the Kukkiwon is dictating to them what history to believe or to tell their students. If you came into the Kukkiwon, they aren't going to give you a history test and fail you for acknowledging General Choi.

I have heard this arguement before. I'm not going to weigh in on it, but I will say that I wouldn't hold my breath on any major revisions to what is on the Kukkiwon website. The history presented there is meant as a working history and an overview. It is by no means comprehensive and the only name mentioned is Song Duk Ki, and he is mentioned as a master of Taekkyeondo. Needless to say, hardly anyone is getting acknowledgement.

The history makes no mention of specific kwans, their leaders, or any of the pioneers who founded the Kukkiwon. If they are not being acknowledged, why should General Choi be acknowledged? And why would an ITF person trying to join the Kukkiwon see this as a problem?

I own a copy of the Kukkiwon textbook, and there isn't exactly a detailed history there either. Unless you go looking to open up a heated topic, the subject isn't going to come up.

Funny thing is that KKW folks don't go demanding that the ITF recognize the accomplishments of KKW pioneers. The demand is pretty much one sided.

Daniel

This is exactly my point. The KTA, KKW & WTF do not make mention of any of them. I am not speaking only of Gen Choi, but all 7 Koreans who went abroad & returned opening the 5 original kwans or 6 early kwans or the 9 major kwans etc. I never meant that the KKW should mention only Gen Choi, but all of them, much like the Modern History does. My complaint is that the 2,000 year old story is disrespectful to these Koreans who did so much for Korea, teaching the world about Korea, putting a friendly face on Korea, a face that had a man behind it that they looked up to as their TKD instructor that actually put or showed people where on the world map Korea was!
Far too many people have simply been ignored by the official version of history put out by these south Korean TKD entities, basically for the national pride. This to me is an outrage, as these great Koreans & all the 2nd generation men who made Kukki TKD did more for Korean national pride than anyone!
They all need to be credited!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

People often have different criteria. Depends on what is important to them or what standard they go by. Some consider Bruce Lee to be the greatest martial artist of all time. Others do not. Different criteria.

I would add Jhoon Rhee to that list as well.

No, while GM Jhoon Rhee is an icon, he simply does not measure up to the arbitrary criteria I set up. of course I used that criteria because I knew no one that would measure up.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I liked the remake much more than the original, which was pretty good. Jeff Bridges was a terrific Rooster. The girl who played Mattie should win an Oscar for her performance.

See we can agree
While she was great, I think Amy Adams in "The Fighter" might beat her out. I guess it will depend on what category if they are nominated, supporting or leading actress.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I have to say that either you do not know many martial artists outside of TKD or that your definition of accomplishment and mine are quite different. So again I submit the following Koreans who have accomplished what Choi did: Mas Oyama, Hwang Ki, Cho, Hee-il, Kim, Joeng-ho. Now the following non-Korean martial artists: Fumio Demura, Morei-Ueshiba, Gichin Funakoshi, Bruce Lee, William Cheung, Yip Man, Remy Presas, the Gracies...The list goes on.

Again I am not trying to say that Gen choi was a better martial artist than any of these other greats. I simply listed criteria, arbitrary I know, but selected for the reason that I do not think any can match all of that criteria.

So to restate the criteria that I am asking people to weigh in on specifically is:
1) Wrote the amount of books that Gen Choi did, along with in-depth
or comprehensive nature of some, ie 15 volume set of Encyclopedias, the 1st ever books on TKD
2) Taught all around the world directly to students
3) A travel schedule that had him cross the world several times a year
4) Presiding over world championships for 28 years
5) Having an exact technical standard that he personally set & taught, so that when a world championship was held some 60 nations would show up & the pattern competition was judged by who came closest to the exact standard he set

I have to be honest as I do not know much about the non-Koreans, but still have never seen anyone who could match this specific criteria that I purposely set as I knew it would be hard to match!
So is there anyone 1 martial artist that can exceed Gen Choi in all 5 of these categories that he accomplished over his lifetime?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I was looking through my older english Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do books and they all have that same one or two page blurb in the introduction of their 500 or 700 page book. If you have a problem with that, then your problem isn't with the pioneers, or with GM LEE Chong Woo, it's with everyone who wrote a book, because they all do it. And frankly, no one takes that stuff seriously. I know I don't. But if you wish to give credit for this "lie", then credit General Choi. Afterall, you did tell us repeatedly that he wrote the first Taekwondo book in english, right?

So if General Choi does it, it's ok, but if others do it, it's not. Got it.

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Gen Choi always made clear that he came up with his system from karate. He never hide those roots at all.


He didn't do that in his 1965 book.

No sir I am sorry but he does make reference to this throughout the 1965 book. Check the flaps, both inside front & back, along with notes on the author etc. he makes it clear that it was a fusion that included karate. He always spoke about his karate roots.
Now please direct me to any place where these other publications list their karate training or the link to karate.
The official KTA, KKW & WTF simply do not do this.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Can we get back on topic? I'm tired of reading the same pissing contest about Gen. Choi in multiple threads.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No, while GM Jhoon Rhee is an icon, he simply does not measure up to the arbitrary criteria I set up. of course I used that criteria because I knew no one that would measure up.

If you take a single individual and make their specific accomplishments the criteria, nobody other than them will measure up. If I took Steven Seagal's specific accomplishment and made those the standard, only Seagal would measure up. Same for Chuck Norris. The general cannot match Chuck Norris' accomplishments, partly because the General was not a competitor and didn't make movies.

Rhee and Norris are icons. Choi is not. Do being icons make Rhee's and Norris' accomplishment better than Choi's? No. But being icons means that they can do things that the general could not. Just as his being a general allowed him to do things that they could not.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Again I am not trying to say that Gen choi was a better martial artist than any of these other greats. I simply listed criteria, arbitrary I know, but selected for the reason that I do not think any can match all of that criteria.

So to restate the criteria that I am asking people to weigh in on specifically is:
1) Wrote the amount of books that Gen Choi did, along with in-depth
or comprehensive nature of some, ie 15 volume set of Encyclopedias, the 1st ever books on TKD

This is probably the only one I can give you. Though I do believe Cho, Hee-il has several books that have been followed closely.

2) Taught all around the world directly to students

For Koreans you should have to take into account that Ji, Han-jae as well as Cho, Hee-il and Sik, Kwang-myong, Mas Oyama. Non-Koreans- Fumios Demura (which, btw, we will be hosting in September) & the Late Remy Presas.

3) A travel schedule that had him cross the world several times a year

See above.

4) Presiding over world championships for 28 years

Mas Oyama I believe did this as well.

5) Having an exact technical standard that he personally set & taught, so that when a world championship was held some 60 nations would show up & the pattern competition was judged by who came closest to the exact standard he set

Again, there have been many who have done this which I have stated before

I have to be honest as I do not know much about the non-Koreans, but still have never seen anyone who could match this specific criteria that I purposely set as I knew it would be hard to match!

Yes hard to match, but has been matched before

So is there anyone 1 martial artist that can exceed Gen Choi in all 5 of these categories that he accomplished over his lifetime?

Again, Mas Oyama, comes to mind. Professor Gino Kano as well. I am not saying that Choi did not achieve a lot based on your criteria. I am just saying he was not the only one.

 

[chrispillertkd]

If you take a single individual and make their specific accomplishments the criteria, nobody other than them will measure up. If I took Steven Seagal's specific accomplishment and made those the standard, only Seagal would measure up. Same for Chuck Norris. The general cannot match Chuck Norris' accomplishments, partly because the General was not a competitor and didn't make movies.

Regarding the bolded part, this is only partially true. IIRC, karatemomusa was talking about Gen. Choi being unparalleled in spreading TKD and teaching the number of people he personally taught. Travel, holding WC's, running seminars, etc. were the criteria karatemomusa listed (personally I would not call them arbitrary).

If someone thinks there are better criteria to measure one's spreading of TKD or any other MA they could list what these would be and offer a reason why.

Rhee and Norris are icons. Choi is not. Do being icons make Rhee's and Norris' accomplishment better than Choi's? No. But being icons means that they can do things that the general could not. Just as his being a general allowed him to do things that they could not.

Daniel

I guess this will depend on what you mean by "icon." I know plenty of people who think Gen. Choi was an icon in Taekwon-Do. Heck, I've read an interview with GM Hwang, Kwang Sung who talks about meeting Gen. Choi while he was still in the Army. His comment was "He [Gen. Choi] was God to me." GM J.R. West also mentioned that while training in Viet Nam all his ROK instructors spoke about Gen. Choi "as if he were the second coming." You don't get much more "icon-y" than those types of comments IMNSHO :lol:

Gen. Choi being a General and later an Ambassador absolutely allowed him to do things others couldn't, go places they didn't, and spread Taekwon-Do in manners they were unable to. That in no way detracts from his accomplishments, however. It's what made them possible (kind of like Un Yong Kim's government and KCIA connections allowed him to push TKD into the Olympics).

Pax,

Chris

 

[miguksaram]

Regarding the bolded part, this is only partially true. IIRC, karatemomusa was talking about Gen. Choi being unparalleled in spreading TKD and teaching the number of people he personally taught. Travel, holding WC's, running seminars, etc. were the criteria karatemomusa listed (personally I would not call them arbitrary).

While this may be true for TKD, he is not the only martial artist to achieve this type of accomplishment. Which she said that she did not know of any martial artist who has accomplished these items.

If someone thinks there are better criteria to measure one's spreading of TKD or any other MA they could list what these would be and offer a reason why.

It is a good criteria, though I would take out reisiding over world championships. Not all MA's have a sport aspect to them.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

If you take a single individual and make their specific accomplishments the criteria, nobody other than them will measure up. If I took Steven Seagal's specific accomplishment and made those the standard, only Seagal would measure up. Same for Chuck Norris. The general cannot match Chuck Norris' accomplishments, partly because the General was not a competitor and didn't make movies.

of course & Sir there is no doubt about that. Gen Choi can not compare to GM Norris, but he did promote him to 8th Dan black belt. I did make up or compile this specific set of criteria as I do not know anyone that can compare to those 5 accomplishments of Gen Choi. So far no one has given me a name of someone who did all 5 & did them to a greater extent than Gen Choi. It was done on purpose to highlight his contributions. It is a given that Gen Choi can not & does not match the accomplishments of Seagal or GM Norris.

Rhee and Norris are icons. Choi is not. Do being icons make Rhee's and Norris' accomplishment better than Choi's? No. But being icons means that they can do things that the general could not. Just as his being a general allowed him to do things that they could not.
Daniel

I guess it depends on your definition of an icon. If you mean that GMs Rhee & Norris were Icons because they made movies or a lot of money, then of course Gen Choi doesn't measure up as he did not make movies, but he did oversee the production of several training films that helped spread the standard that he set & taught world-wide.
I do think that as a martial art leader, pioneer, founder etc, Gen Choi was held in an iconic stature by countless students in over 100 countries around the world.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Again, Mas Oyama, comes to mind. Professor Gino Kano as well. I am not saying that Choi did not achieve a lot based on your criteria. I am just saying he was not the only one.

I am not sure any of them had the travel schedule that Gen Choi did, especially Prof Kano as he lived pre-airplanes.
You give some good examples for each in each category, but I am not sure that they can match or beat him on all 5. But I am willing to be corrected.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

IIRC, karatemomusa was talking about Gen. Choi being unparalleled in spreading TKD and teaching the number of people he personally taught. Travel, holding WC's, running seminars, etc. were the criteria karatemomusa listed (personally I would not call them arbitrary).
If someone thinks there are better criteria to measure one's spreading of TKD or any other MA they could list what these would be and offer a reason why.

Exactly! It really gets to the point of how standard he made his martial art. Which by the way is what the KKW & WTF are now trying to do with their Poomsae world championship. Gen Choi accomplished this decades ago, almost single handedly. That really is a big deal. He standardized his martial art & made his unique movements the same around the world, where the gold medal went to the one who performed the closest to the standard he set & taught.
Now I only used the term arbitrary because I arbitrarily picked these 5 criteria. As stated I did so as I do not know of anyone that surpassed all 5 of these categories.