Looking for written sources on TKD

[puunui]

Sir, would you please stop with the veiled personal digs?
You have a lot to contribute and you certainly are knowledgeable. You do not need to take the low shots. Daniel

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to me, it wasn't a "veiled personal dig"; it was the truth. Not only that, it was based on an argument that the Kukkiwon pioneers created the 2000 year old "lie", when in fact it was General Choi who started it in his 1965 book, which Karate Mom has told us repeatedly that it was the first english work on Taekwondo. General Choi was the one who attempted to link Taekwondo to Taekkyon, because President RHEE Syngman saw that 1954 Tang Soo Do demonstration and exclaimed "That's Taekkyon".

The statement by Karatemom is also a "veiled personal dig" because it implies that there has not been any "independent verification" or "proof" of what happened. I quoted General Choi's 1965 book as "verification" and "proof" as to exactly who created the Taekkyon/Taekwondo myth. Do you really think this is still up for debate, that search for the truth is still ongoing on this issue?

The statement by Karatemom is also offensive from the standpoint that she makes the "veiled personal dig" that "military dictators" somehow suppressed the truth about Taekwondo's history and that now that they are gone, freedom of speech and the press has finally allowing the truth to come out. The truth of the matter is that General Choi started the myth with his 1965 book, which karatemom tells us over and over is the first work on Taekwondo in english.

The fact of the matter is that the truth was always out there for anyone to discover and it was out there prior to 1999. I know because I was discussing Taekwondo's history before that book was published and was saying basically the same thing that the Modern History book discusses. The pioneers all discuss openly and frankly the origins of their art and they freely tell the history to anyone who asks.

I think GM LEE Chong Woo says it best about General Choi: "“When he opens his mouth, he tells lies. It is not worth responding to that. He is a bad person under the sky. Some badly informed people think he is someone great, but he is a man without a gall bladder [inconsistent]. I know him well.”

and if you don't like that quote, here's another:

[Reporter’s Comment]: President Choi makes his own point that his relationship
with President Chung Hee Park became uncomfortable due to his opposition to the
revision of the constitution that would allow a third presidential term, and there was an
organized plot in the Taekwondo community that might harm him.

[Chong Woo Lee’s Response]: “That is a lie. That guy is famous for getting
around situations by cooking up different stories. He tells stories one way in one place,
and then when he is asked, 'Isn't this story different from the one you just gave few
minutes ago?' he manages to gloss over it saying, 'That one was a joke and this one is the real story.' During President Chung Hee Park's term when Hong Hi Choi was serving as
Ambassador to Malaysia, he was called home and accused of embezzlement of official
government funds. Meanwhile, Un Yong Kim, who was working for the Presidential
Security Service for the Blue House, was coming into the Taekwondo leadership, and
Choi slipped out and ran away. I can give you a lot of evidence of his lies.”

or another:

[Reporter’s Question]: But, in Hong Hi Choi’s book, he writes that President
Syngman Rhee did write the calligraphy for him.

[Chong Woo Lee’s Response]: “That is a lie. That one was written by Hong Hi
Choi. That was Choi’s calligraphy. President Chung Hee Park later gave the official
calligraphy for 'Taekwondo' to Un Yong Kim. If Choi had received the one from the
President [Syngman Rhee], he would have evidence. He fabricated the story after we
received the calligraphy written by President Chung Hee Park in 1970, because he did not
want to appear inferior to us. Before that, I had never heard Hong Hi Choi bring out the
story of having received the calligraphy. If he had received it, why hadn’t he made it
known to the public by then?”



Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Yes of course we do need to get independent verification of what people said & proof of what happened. This process is now underway & has been in some form or another, since the military dictators have long been gone & freedom of speech & the press is now flourishing is south Korea. This is why you see the Modern History in 1999 & the Yook interview in 2002. The nasty politics that manipulated the truth, hid facts & wrote people out of history for various reasons are now gone, so more of what actually happened in coming to the surface.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have not given an opinion of you, sir, so your comment about my opinion is unwarranted.

This is not the first shot you've taken since coming onto this board. A personal dig is one that is applied directly to another individual on this board. Karatemom's comments about the KKW promoting a 2000 year old lie is not a personal dig. Statements made about SK presidents, pioneers, or statements that 'past military dictators somehow suppressed the truth about Taekwondo's history and that now that they are gone, freedom of speech and the press has finally allowing the truth to come out' are not personal digs.

I read your post, but nowhere do I find that you demonstrate that she has made personal digs against you.

You may feel very personally about the subject matter, but that does not make her comments personal digs. If she were calling you a liar or making comments about 'the koolade' or things along those lines, I would have made the same suggestion to her.

Your comment, however applied directly to her. You have made other veiled personal digs here as well, such as suggesting to a longtime member that he would fit in on Ray Terry's board after saying rather scathing things about Ray Terry (whoever he is/was) and his board.

You are an educated man and you are highly knowdedgeable about the subject at hand. By and large, I enjoy your posts, sir, and I do feel that your presence here has been a benefit to the TKD section (if you really want my opinion of you). You have brought a fresh perspective and you support your statements very, very well (something that I personally like quite a bit). The quality of your posts is certainly high and you have no need to resort to snyde comments, low shots or personal digs.

I'm not a moderator here, nor do I play one on TV. But there has already been a general mod warning about the recent tenor of the TKD section. I figured that I'd address the issue directly and politely so as to avoid threadlock.

You seem like a reasonable gent, so hopefully, you will see where I'm coming from. Believe me when I say that I do not dislike you nor am I picking on you. Actually, I think fairly highly of you, as the many thanks I have given to you in posts, as well as positive reputation, should indicate.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

I read your post, but nowhere do I find that you demonstrate that she has made personal digs against you.

It is a personal dig to the pioneers, that they were somehow part of a huge conspiracy to deny General Choi his exalted place in Taekwondo history and the point was made by repeating the same lies that General Choi has told for decades.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It is a personal dig to the pioneers, that they were somehow part of a huge conspiracy to deny General Choi his exalted place in Taekwondo history and the point was made by repeating the same lies that General Choi has told for decades.

That does not qualify as a personal dig to you, sir.

Look, the pioneers probably don't care what some nobodies say about them on the internet. And with very few exceptions, we're all essentially nobodies on the internet.

There people who come on here and slam taekwondo, the Kukkiwon, traditional arts in general, Korean arts, etc. So long as they do not attack me personally, I am content to respond to them with facts. If the discussion seems to be going nowhere, I bow out. If they attack me personally, I ignore them or point a moderator to the offending post and refrain from further response, no fuss, no muss.

I reiterate, I have a high degree of respect for you, sir.

I do not always agree with you, but your opinions and perspectives are ones that I consider to be of value. You are the first person to ever get me to start thinking of the sport and the art as part of a contiguous whole rather than as two separate entities, and that's saying something! While I haven't quite come around to your way of thinking on that subject (still mulling that over), I found your thoughts on the subject to be quite compelling.

Thank you,

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I guess if you say it enough times, maybe some people will believe you. The General Choi approach.
I think you believe you can do that, but I don't believe you can.

Yes I am very consistent in my approach, but also very open to learning more. I seek more info & am happy when you share it. I appreciate that & your perspective. To understand Gen Choi & his approach, you have to understand the nasty Korean politics. Gen Choi simply did not acknowledge that Kukki TKD was TKD, as it was not his TKD or original TKD. That I think is wrong. However it seems that many in Kukki TKD do not want to acknowledge his many contributions, especially with Chang Hon TKD. That I think is wrong.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Which may very well be, but it seemed his novice knowledge still trumped Gen. Choi's "expert" knowledge. That says a lot right there.

No GM Nam was a super talented martial artist. I am sure that he had more physical talent than Gen Choi did. However GM Nam says it was Gen Choi that made the patterns & GM Nam, among others worked out the moves for him.
Again there has never been any Korean or martial artists that i know of that was able to accomplish what Gen Choi did & have such a world-wide following, that was moving so standard around the globe to his exact direction.

 

[puunui]

That does not qualify as a personal dig to you, sir.

Maybe not to you, but it is to me.

 

[puunui]

Gen Choi simply did not acknowledge that Kukki TKD was TKD, as it was not his TKD or original TKD. That I think is wrong. However it seems that many in Kukki TKD do not want to acknowledge his many contributions, especially with Chang Hon TKD. That I think is wrong.

General Choi doesn't need to acknowledge Kukki Taekwondo; no one from Kukki Taekwondo has ever asked General Choi to do such a thing. In the same light, the pioneers or anyone else does not need to acknowledge General Choi, or his contributions, especially when those contributions apply only to his own private organization. If you wish to recognize General Choi's contributions, then you are free to do so but attempting to force General Choi to acknowledge Kukki Taekwondo or have Kukki Taekwondo acknowledge General Choi, that I think is wrong.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Maybe not to you, but it is to me.

Fair enough. I trust you have your reasons.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes I am very consistent in my approach, but also very open to learning more. I seek more info & am happy when you share it. I appreciate that & your perspective. To understand Gen Choi & his approach, you have to understand the nasty Korean politics. Gen Choi simply did not acknowledge that Kukki TKD was TKD, as it was not his TKD or original TKD. That I think is wrong. However it seems that many in Kukki TKD do not want to acknowledge his many contributions, especially with Chang Hon TKD. That I think is wrong.

No offense, but why would they? It isn't as if the General's parting with those who formed the Kukkiwon was all warm and fuzzy. Each system is a fine system and can be appreciated for their merits. But I certainly don't expect them to pat each other on the back and go out of their way to give acknowledgments to each other. The Kukkiwon did what it set out to do and has its position secured. They really don't need to acknowledge Gen. Choi. The General and his people put together their own system and organization and went their own way. They probably do not see it as beneficial to acknowledge the Kukkiwon either.

I rather liked the Rashamon analogy made in another thread. Really kind of fits.

As for the politics, all politics have a degree of nastiness.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to me, it wasn't a "veiled personal dig"; it was the truth. Not only that, it was based on an argument that the Kukkiwon pioneers created the 2000 year old "lie", when in fact it was General Choi who started it in his 1965 book, which Karate Mom has told us repeatedly that it was the first english work on Taekwondo. General Choi was the one who attempted to link Taekwondo to Taekkyon, because President RHEE Syngman saw that 1954 Tang Soo Do demonstration and exclaimed "That's Taekkyon".
The statement by Karatemom is also a "veiled personal dig" because it implies that there has not been any "independent verification" or "proof" of what happened. I quoted General Choi's 1965 book as "verification" and "proof" as to exactly who created the Taekkyon/Taekwondo myth. Do you really think this is still up for debate, that search for the truth is still ongoing on this issue?

No I simply pointed you to the words of GM Lee Chong Woo who said he made it up. So who is lying? Did GM Lee lie, because he stole this idea from Gen Choi?
Gen Choi attempted to link TKD to Taek Kyon, as that would save face for Koreans as the biggest influence on TKD was karate from Japan. Or at least the 7 Koreans that learned martial arts abroad & took it back to Korea starting the 6 early kwans all studied karate, with some Chinese influnce as well. Linking his TKD to Taek Kyon simply shows that Korea had some form a indigenous martial art at some point in time prior to the occupation. Well then I guess this is another contribution by Gen Choi, no?
Gen Choi always made clear that he came up with his system from karate. He never hide those roots at all.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The statement by Karatemom is also offensive from the standpoint that she makes the "veiled personal dig" that "military dictators" somehow suppressed the truth about Taekwondo's history and that now that they are gone, freedom of speech and the press has finally allowing the truth to come out. The truth of the matter is that General Choi started the myth with his 1965 book, which karatemom tells us over and over is the first work on Taekwondo in english.
The fact of the matter is that the truth was always out there for anyone to discover and it was out there prior to 1999. I know because I was discussing Taekwondo's history before that book was published and was saying basically the same thing that the Modern History book discusses. The pioneers all discuss openly and frankly the origins of their art and they freely tell the history to anyone who asks.

Again Sir you are inaccurate with your response to my points. Gen Choi's life & that of his followers in the ITF was made miserable by the military dictators Gens Park & Chun. This was done to silence him, as he had become a leading & vocal overseas critic of the brutality of those dicatorships. The campaign they waged on him & his innocent instructors, as they did not engage in any "anti-nationalist activity", was what must be understood, if we are to comprehend the context of these turbulent times.
Plus as I already pointed out, but do not recall you responding to, if the Kukki TKD leaders did say the history all along, they were not vocal, they did not write about it & that template that was fabricated was simply the company line & still is. So while it may be wonderful that they may have always spoke the truth, very few ever heard it or read about it, as their websites still have the 2,000 year old myth still there for the millions of TKDin & the general public to be mislead!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I think GM LEE Chong Woo says it best about General Choi: "“When he opens his mouth, he tells lies. It is not worth responding to that. He is a bad person under the sky. Some badly informed people think he is someone great, but he is a man without a gall bladder [inconsistent]. I know him well.”

Yes I am aware that GM Lee, a govt official, working foru south Korea to promote their national sport, did not like Gen Choi at all. I believe the feeling with them was mutual. I also think that understanding this anomosity & the context of those times, especially when the military dictators, Gens Park & Chun were trying to silence his political opposition voice & global network that he had in place, via the ITF. Readers also must evaluate motive when weighing whatever evidence is out forth. GM Lee was after all involved via his own admission in cheating for Korean players in what his own words call "branch trimming".
Bottom line is GM Lee did great things for Kukki TKD, as did Gen Choi with his original TKD. It is a shame that these 2 martial artists could not appreciate the contributions they made to some many around the world.
It is also a shame in my view for fellow martial artists to continue to ignore these great accomplishments. I for one thank them both. I still do not think that any Korean martial artist had the impact that Gen Choi did with his teachings.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

[Reporter’s Question]: But, in Hong Hi Choi’s book, he writes that President Syngman Rhee did write the calligraphy for him.

[Chong Woo Lee’s Response]: “That is a lie. That one was written by Hong Hi
Choi. That was Choi’s calligraphy. President Chung Hee Park later gave the official
calligraphy for 'Taekwondo' to Un Yong Kim. If Choi had received the one from the
President [Syngman Rhee], he would have evidence. He fabricated the story after we
received the calligraphy written by President Chung Hee Park in 1970, because he did not
want to appear inferior to us. Before that, I had never heard Hong Hi Choi bring out the
story of having received the calligraphy. If he had received it, why hadn’t he made it
known to the public by then?”

OK here is where I respectfully suggest that we evaluate this more fully, than just taking the words of someone who had such great dislike for Gen Choi.
Now we know Gen Choi submitted the name. We know the panel wanted to seek approval from President Rhee, the puppet president who Puuunui says was no saint.
Then GM Lee says:
"He (Gen Choi) fabricated the story after we received the calligraphy written by President Chung Hee Park in 1970, because he did not want to appear inferior to us. Before that, I had never heard Hong Hi Choi bring out the story of having received the calligraphy."
So I ask you, what about the 1959 book of Gen Choi, the 1st book ever written on TKD? in it, there is the caligraphy of President Rhee writing it in Chinese. So Gen Choi didn't make up the story in 1970, as the evidence predates that by 11 years. I am sure that GM Lee just did not realize that it was in the book.
See, these things are not so easy to sort out. But of course if we only listen to 1 side, a side that admits outright their lack of respect & refusal to acknowledge anything the other side does, we also can be misled or miss out on more of the complete story.

The truth of the matter is that Gen Choi came up with the name TKD in 1954. He offered it out as an umbrella term & it was rejected. However his followers used the name from that time, till today. It was the TaeSuDo guys that finally started to accept it, after Gen Choi's insistence in 1965. After that, others starting to apply the name TKD as well, with the Kwans being numbered & retired in 1978.
Do you think that this may be a reason that this info is left out of the mix?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

You are an educated man and you are highly knowdedgeable about the subject at hand. By and large, I enjoy your posts, sir, and I do feel that your presence here has been a benefit to the TKD section (if you really want my opinion of you). You have brought a fresh perspective and you support your statements very, very well (something that I personally like quite a bit). The quality of your posts is certainly high........

I agree totally. I also try my best to refrain from anything not in line with the 5 Tenets of TKD as outlined by Gen Choi. If anything I have ever posted in accordance to these Tenets, please direct me to it & I will make amends.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

It is a personal dig to the pioneers, that they were somehow part of a huge conspiracy to deny General Choi his exalted place in Taekwondo history and the point was made by repeating the same lies that General Choi has told for decades.

I am sorry that you feel this way. I have no anomosity to no man. I value the contributions of the Kukki TKD leaders very much, as I do the contributions that Gen Choi & his team made as well. I for one find no problem at all in saying thanks & crediting people that have done good.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Gen Choi simply did not acknowledge that Kukki TKD was TKD, as it was not his TKD or original TKD. That I think is wrong. However it seems that many in Kukki TKD do not want to acknowledge his many contributions, especially with Chang Hon TKD. That I think is wrong.

General Choi doesn't need to acknowledge Kukki Taekwondo; no one from Kukki Taekwondo has ever asked General Choi to do such a thing. In the same light, the pioneers or anyone else does not need to acknowledge General Choi, or his contributions, especially when those contributions apply only to his own private organization. If you wish to recognize General Choi's contributions, then you are free to do so but attempting to force General Choi to acknowledge Kukki Taekwondo or have Kukki Taekwondo acknowledge General Choi, that I think is wrong.

Of course I can't force Gen Choi to acknowlege Kukki TKD, as he has passed a better place. I do think it was wrong for him to take the approach that he did. I think the time for those battles are gone. I am glad that the TKD Park will credit him. I also think that "his own private organization" was not so private, with some 100 plus countries that fielded world championships with 50-70 nations showing up & doing his patterns in such a standardized fashion, that spectators might think that they were from the same school, same teacher. Of course they were from his ITF. I am glad that the WTF is now holding world poomsae championships, as I think that will help their standardization. I do know from personal experience that it is hard to do & am amzed that Gen Choi was able to accomplish that so well.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote: Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA Yes I am very consistent in my approach, but also very open to learning more. I seek more info & am happy when you share it. I appreciate that & your perspective. To understand Gen Choi & his approach, you have to understand the nasty Korean politics. Gen Choi simply did not acknowledge that Kukki TKD was TKD, as it was not his TKD or original TKD. That I think is wrong. However it seems that many in Kukki TKD do not want to acknowledge his many contributions, especially with Chang Hon TKD. That I think is wrong.

No offense, but why would they? It isn't as if the General's parting with those who formed the Kukkiwon was all warm and fuzzy. Each system is a fine system and can be appreciated for their merits. But I certainly don't expect them to pat each other on the back and go out of their way to give acknowledgments to each other. The Kukkiwon did what it set out to do and has its position secured. They really don't need to acknowledge Gen. Choi. The General and his people put together their own system and organization and went their own way. They probably do not see it as beneficial to acknowledge the Kukkiwon either.

No offense taken. This is not personal for me. If TKD is to be one, all TKDin should feel welcomed, should they not?
Kukki TKD does not have to do anything at all. There are different from the original TKD. They are bigger & the world has come to know TKD as Kukki TKD, the Olympis sport. The KTA, KKW & WTF do not need the ITF. However since the Kukki TKD leaders had a plan & a vision of bringing all TKDin together, then it may be helpful to be seen as somewhat respectful for outside TKDin, would it not?
In any event, once the World TKD Academy gets around to updating the history of TKD, they should make it more complete, they are after all the driving force behind TKD.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Quote: Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA Yes I am very consistent in my approach, but also very open to learning more. I seek more info & am happy when you share it. I appreciate that & your perspective. To understand Gen Choi & his approach, you have to understand the nasty Korean politics. Gen Choi simply did not acknowledge that Kukki TKD was TKD, as it was not his TKD or original TKD. That I think is wrong. However it seems that many in Kukki TKD do not want to acknowledge his many contributions, especially with Chang Hon TKD. That I think is wrong.


No offense taken. This is not personal for me. If TKD is to be one, all TKDin should feel welcomed, should they not?

Making people feel welcome is one thing, but compromising their own established history is another. If the Kukkiwon leaders do not feel that the General's accomplishments were relevant outside of the ITF, then there really is no reason for them to acknowledge them. Why should a non KKW member require this in order to feel welcomed? It isn't as if the Kukkiwon is dictating to them what history to believe or to tell their students. If you came into the Kukkiwon, they aren't going to give you a history test and fail you for acknowledging General Choi.

Kukki TKD does not have to do anything at all. There are different from the original TKD. They are bigger & the world has come to know TKD as Kukki TKD, the Olympis sport. The KTA, KKW & WTF do not need the ITF.

So again, why go back and make acknowledgements that they not only do not want to make, but do not feel are valid?

However since the Kukki TKD leaders had a plan & a vision of bringing all TKDin together, then it may be helpful to be seen as somewhat respectful for outside TKDin, would it not?

Being respectful does not mean changing one's established history.

In any event, once the World TKD Academy gets around to updating the history of TKD, they should make it more complete, they are after all the driving force behind TKD.

I have heard this arguement before. I'm not going to weigh in on it, but I will say that I wouldn't hold my breath on any major revisions to what is on the Kukkiwon website. The history presented there is meant as a working history and an overview. It is by no means comprehensive and the only name mentioned is Song Duk Ki, and he is mentioned as a master of Taekkyeondo. Needless to say, hardly anyone is getting acknowledgement.

The history makes no mention of specific kwans, their leaders, or any of the pioneers who founded the Kukkiwon. If they are not being acknowledged, why should General Choi be acknowledged? And why would an ITF person trying to join the Kukkiwon see this as a problem?

I own a copy of the Kukkiwon textbook, and there isn't exactly a detailed history there either. Unless you go looking to open up a heated topic, the subject isn't going to come up.

Funny thing is that KKW folks don't go demanding that the ITF recognize the accomplishments of KKW pioneers. The demand is pretty much one sided.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

No GM Nam was a super talented martial artist. I am sure that he had more physical talent than Gen Choi did. However GM Nam says it was Gen Choi that made the patterns & GM Nam, among others worked out the moves for him.

Cool...so Choi had an imagination.

Again there has never been any Korean or martial artists that i know of that was able to accomplish what Gen Choi did & have such a world-wide following, that was moving so standard around the globe to his exact direction.

I have to say that either you do not know many martial artists outside of TKD or that your definition of accomplishment and mine are quite different. So again I submit the following Koreans who have accomplished what Choi did: Mas Oyama, Hwang Ki, Cho, Hee-il, Kim, Joeng-ho. Now the following non-Korean martial artists: Fumio Demura, Morei-Ueshiba, Gichin Funakoshi, Bruce Lee, William Cheung, Yip Man, Remy Presas, the Gracies...The list goes on.