Long Form 3 Question

[tigdra]

http://www.kenponet.com/flame/articles/comparison.html

Comparison list thanks to good old kenponet

 

[jazkiljok]

I have heard that at least some of them, perhaps up to numbers 3 or 4, were developed by Jimmy Woo. I can't back that claim up with certainty, but that is what I have heard.

i recall reading an interview with Jimmy Woo, him, like you said-claiming to have created all the main forms (up to 4) before his break with Ed Parker. can't recall but it was an online interview on some probably now defunct website.

 

[Sigung86]

From a logical point of view, it seems to me that the forms would have been created from existing techniques. The movements are too methodical and specific to believe they were just random movements of some kind, without specific meaning and purpose.

Now it is certainly possible that the existing techniques just did not yet exist in kenpo. COuld be they were taken from elsewhere, put into forms, and then the original techniques were slipped into the kenpo technique curriculum...

Your right, of course, Michael. I was just being silly on tht last post.

On the other hand, if your school doesn't teach book set, say for instance, you will be missing some really "betchin" techniques that the Tracy's did pull out of the form, and not the other way around.

Dan

 

[Flying Crane]

Your right, of course, Michael. I was just being silly on tht last post.

Hi Dan, I realize this, but your comment made me realize suddenly that while the techs in my opinion must have existed prior to creation of the form, (or at the very least were developed simultaneously with the form) they may have simply not yet been incorporated into the kenpo curriculum. Creation of the form then brought the techs into kenpo from elsewhere. I hadn't thought of that, so that was an eye-opener and I appreciate that a lot. This would also seem to be supported by your post indicating that the original system Mr. Parker was teaching had only about 32 techs and a couple forms. If this was true, then where did all the other techs come from? Did Mr. Parker create them himself, or did they get pulled from other sources, or did he learn them from Mr. Chow later? I obviously don't know, but it's interesting to think about.

On the other hand, if your school doesn't teach book set, say for instance, you will be missing some really "betchin" techniques that the Tracy's did pull out of the form, and not the other way around.


I think this is where the kenpo forms really differ from the Japanese and Chinese and other Asian forms. The kenpo forms contain all these specific techniques that also exist independently in the system.

But I have studied the Chinese arts as well, and know a number of forms from Tibetan White Crane and Shaolin and others. These forms don't have such clearly defined and specific techniques that the kenpo forms have. We are not taught a list of SD techs which are then found in a form. Instead, we are taught a form, and we need to analyze the movement and figure out how it is applied. While the movements in these forms definitely have very powerful applications, they are also more open to interpreting and digging around to discover many differnt applications for the same movements. And defining the parameters of the movement is also open to interpretation, allowing the movement to blend together in ways that the Kenpo forms seem to discourage. Where one "movement" or "technique" starts and stops is less clearly defined, which helps to open the door to discovery and exploration.

But the kenpo forms, containing techniques that are clearly defined, have definite "starting" and "stopping" points, where the tech begins and ends. And because the kenpo forms have these very specific techniques within them, it seems that that becomes the one clear and obvious interpretation of the movement, and it sort of discourages any inclination to search for others. It's very easy to say "I know what this move is used for" and then just move on, and not sit down and analyze it and see if it, or a portion of it, could be useful in other circumstances.

I think the Book Set was derived from a Chinese form, if I am not mistaken. I never learned it, but I think I have seen it. Is it also known as Little Tiger, and has a lot of breathing and dynamic tension?

 

[Ray]

Your right, of course, Michael. I was just being silly on tht last post.

Hi Dan, I realize this, but your comment made me realize suddenly that while the techs in my opinion must have existed prior to creation of the form, (or at the very least were developed simultaneously with the form) they may have simply not yet been incorporated into the kenpo curriculum. Creation of the form then brought the techs into kenpo from elsewhere. I hadn't thought of that, so that was an eye-opener and I appreciate that a lot. This would also seem to be supported by your post indicating that the original system Mr. Parker was teaching had only about 32 techs and a couple forms. If this was true, then where did all the other techs come from? Did Mr. Parker create them himself, or did they get pulled from other sources, or did he learn them from Mr. Chow later? I obviously don't know, but it's interesting to think about.

On the other hand, if your school doesn't teach book set, say for instance, you will be missing some really "betchin" techniques that the Tracy's did pull out of the form, and not the other way around.


I think this is where the kenpo forms really differ from the Japanese and Chinese and other Asian forms. The kenpo forms contain all these specific techniques that also exist independently in the system.

But I have studied the Chinese arts as well, and know a number of forms from Tibetan White Crane and Shaolin and others. These forms don't have such clearly defined and specific techniques that the kenpo forms have. We are not taught a list of SD techs which are then found in a form. Instead, we are taught a form, and we need to analyze the movement and figure out how it is applied. While the movements in these forms definitely have very powerful applications, they are also more open to interpreting and digging around to discover many differnt applications for the same movements. And defining the parameters of the movement is also open to interpretation, allowing the movement to blend together in ways that the Kenpo forms seem to discourage. Where one "movement" or "technique" starts and stops is less clearly defined, which helps to open the door to discovery and exploration.

But the kenpo forms, containing techniques that are clearly defined, have definite "starting" and "stopping" points, where the tech begins and ends. And because the kenpo forms have these very specific techniques within them, it seems that that becomes the one clear and obvious interpretation of the movement, and it sort of discourages any inclination to search for others. It's very easy to say "I know what this move is used for" and then just move on, and not sit down and analyze it and see if it, or a portion of it, could be useful in other circumstances.

I think the Book Set was derived from a Chinese form, if I am not mistaken. I never learned it, but I think I have seen it. Is it also known as Little Tiger, and has a lot of breathing and dynamic tension?

Book Set was derived from a Hung Gar (or Hun Ga) Kung Fu set.

As far as the predefined self-defense techs in Kenpo Forms: Yes, we have the SD techs and they are in the forms. However, the same movements can have different applications...we still play around with the different applications that might live in the forms.

Heck, we even "play around" with the SD techs to find other applications for them.

Anyone who thinks that a movement (or series of movments) has one and only one possible application is doing themselves a disservice.

 

[Flying Crane]

Book Set was derived from a Hung Gar (or Hun Ga) Kung Fu set.

As far as the predefined self-defense techs in Kenpo Forms: Yes, we have the SD techs and they are in the forms. However, the same movements can have different applications...we still play around with the different applications that might live in the forms.

Heck, we even "play around" with the SD techs to find other applications for them.

Anyone who thinks that a movement (or series of movments) has one and only one possible application is doing themselves a disservice.

I agree with you. I just think that the way the kenpo forms are structured, with techs that also exist separately, can cause people to be lazy about exploring other options, that's all. In a way, it can be too much like being served all the answers on a silver platter. If you are spoon-fed, you don't learn to explore and figure things out for yourself.

I'm not saying everyone does this. I'm just saying that there is this danger to be wary of.

By the way, if anyone knows specifically which Hung Gar form the Book Set was derived from, I'd be interested in knowing this. I have seen this suggested a couple of times, but nobody has suggested which one in particular. I know some people who trained in Hung Gar, including my Sifu altho he doesn't teach it. I'd like to make a comparison, if possible.