Left-Right

[rmcrobertson]

I was curious: what's the logic behind working both sides of the techniques from very early in training kenpo? Wouldn't working the sets and forms do just as well? All the forms and sets deal with both sides--and, they bring out the asymmetrical nature of kenpo.

The second thing I wondered about was whether or not running techniques on both sides was actually possible. Or is it like the start of Short 1--both the right and left inward blocks seem the same, but actually aren't.

Thanks, guys and grils. I'm new to this forum.

Sincerely,
Robert

 

[jfarnsworth]

Robert,
You can teach yourself to do both sides of techniques. It all comes down to practice. The most important thing as far as I'm concerned for doing both sides is POSITION RECOGNITION. When you get into the other 2 phases the muscle memory (the brain) must be there to work for you.
Jason Farnsworth

 

[tshadowchaser]

The main reason I started this thread is that I remembered that the forms do a right sided move then a left sided . So my thoughts where that the defense should also folow the same sequence.
Shadow:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, yeah, I take your points--but I was actually asking something else. Let me try and be clearer.

First, isn't it pretty confusing for beginners (and some of us advanced types) to try and learn, "both sides," of a technique? I haven't seen it on this thread, but I have from time to time seen folks advocate that all techniques, right from the get-go, are to be learned on, "both sides."

So wouldn't it be easier, even perhaps more natural, to slowly introduce the left side via the sets and forms, as these get learned in the already mapped-out course of training? The explanation I got was that first you develop the right side (same thing Clyde got, and from pretty much the same source), then start integrating both sides--so by Long 6, the left is well-emphasized, though it never comes up to the same level entirely.

Second--is it really the same, running (for example) Delayed Sword on the "other side?" For one thing--and the forms/sets might bring this out--isn't the left side the smart side, the dragon hand, the manipulative one? Both sides of Short 1 aren't the same--even the first two blocks aren't--so beyond the practicality of teaching both sides equally from the start, there's the question of whether or not they are identical even if you do both.

Or to raise the same issue another way, I'm not sure I see why it's necessary to run Delayed Sword or Five Swords, "on the other side," against left-sided attacks. Isn't it possible to keep the technique right-sided, and go outside the attacker's arm rather than inside? If that's not such a good idea, why?

Thank you for the discussion. Nice to see folks who actually want to discuss the nuts and bolts of kenpo.

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Kirk



Wow! You sure aren't afraid to post your opinion away from "the
norm" are ya! Kudos for that! Anyways, I admit it was refreshing
to hear ya say that! I've had that opinion myself, although mine
isn't one from experience. I just felt that if Mr Parker wanted the
left side developed, he would've added it to the curriculum. The
first thing my instructor told me on my first day was "this is a
right handed system". It'll be interesting to see if my opinions
change the more experience I get.

Clydes pretty good at that...just get to talking to him sometime hes full of info and facts and good hard brutally honest opinion. It is refreshing to hear someone who isnt a "yes man"

 

[jfarnsworth]

[Well, yeah, I take your points--but I was actually asking something else. Let me try and be clearer.

First, isn't it pretty confusing for beginners (and some of us advanced types) to try and learn, "both sides," of a technique? I haven't seen it on this thread, but I have from time to time seen folks advocate that all techniques, right from the get-go, are to be learned on, "both sides."

So wouldn't it be easier, even perhaps more natural, to slowly introduce the left side via the sets and forms, as these get learned in the already mapped-out course of training? The explanation I got was that first you develop the right side (same thing Clyde got, and from pretty much the same source), then start integrating both sides--so by Long 6, the left is well-emphasized, though it never comes up to the same level entirely.

Second--is it really the same, running (for example) Delayed Sword on the "other side?" For one thing--and the forms/sets might bring this out--isn't the left side the smart side, the dragon hand, the manipulative one? Both sides of Short 1 aren't the same--even the first two blocks aren't--so beyond the practicality of teaching both sides equally from the start, there's the question of whether or not they are identical even if you do both.

Or to raise the same issue another way, I'm not sure I see why it's necessary to run Delayed Sword or Five Swords, "on the other side," against left-sided attacks. Isn't it possible to keep the technique right-sided, and go outside the attacker's arm rather than inside? If that's not such a good idea, why?

Thank you for the discussion. Nice to see folks who actually want to discuss the nuts and bolts of kenpo.QUOTE]

Robert,
Sure it's confusing to a point, I still get messed up from time to time. I believe self-discovery plays a big part into learning the kenpo system. When I went to Mr. C's seminar a couple of months ago he had a 7yr. old girl doing things on both sides with no problems. He has an excellent way of teaching kenpo. At that time I decided that I needed to incorporating techniques taught to the opposite side.

I understand your point on the forms and sets. After long 3 we repeat specific tech.'s on both sides. I personally only know through 5 and have heard that saying many numerous, numerous times about everything being there already you just need to look at it deeper. Look at book 5 Mr. Parker has material listed right & left sides from the beginning. Now my instructor hs adopted to start at 2nd black to train each technique on the opposite side it was taught. He thought this would be a good place to start to relearn the system w/extensions and opposite side techniques.

Let me give you an example of what happened to me last night. I was teaching Dance of Death to some newer students. It was the next tech. they were to learn. One of the male students asked a question about (what if, already) if you hit the attacker in the side of the leg because he was moving and threw a left roundhouse because he could. Put me on the spot in front of everyone in the class that's only been there for about 3-5 months. Having only been to 1 seminar with Mr. Conatser it took me about 2 seconds to say well from here it looks like a good place to execute Delayed Sword on the opposite side. This came to mind because the position of right to left, my right hand low w/the left hand high. I blocked the right but didn't hit the groin & immediately the left hook. Once again I believe it came down to just plain old practice.

Here comes one more answer of what works on the outside of a right will work on the inside of a left and vice versa. Everone attacker will have his own "style" persay. We all won't always get attacked by a right handed fighter. Some people are left handed. Why not just have a little extra knowledge in the bag for any situation?

Mr. Planas has a great Five Swords technique for the outside of a left. There's no way I can put that into typed words one must feel how the technique works, and feels.

Lastly, I personally believe you can't move up in rank without self-discovery, trianing, learning, seminars, etc. A kenpoist can't sit idle and practice the same things over and over again. We must learn how to graft or take a technique and disect it, make it work for other attacks, break it down, come up with our own techniques for situations. OK I'm done rambling for now.

Robert send me a private message about your lineage or instructor the questions and thoughts you have seem just waaaaay too familiar. If you would? For all I know you could be in the same class I am!
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth

 

[Michael Billings]

I like the idea of teaching techniques on both sides. This works well when you have beginners doing that from the time that they step on the mat. There is no question then about having a "Bad" or "Weak" side. It also allow us to focus on some principles of motion in a mirrored opposite fashion e.g. rotation Counter-Clockwise then clockwise, say in Delayed Sword; on the opposite side you get the Clockwise first then counter-clockwise. Starting this early provides a tool for later introduction of techniques requiring similar rotation (just an example.)

There may also be some benefit to students who are left-handed, even though my experience is that they are more bilateral to start with.

I have taught both sides then just one side and expected the deficit to be made up at Brown. Another option is that for Orange you learn Yellow on the left and Orange on the Right. Purple belt would require Orange on the left and Purple on the right. There is something to be said for less material earlier in terms of student retention, which is what I am doing now. The student is more hooked in and less overwhelmed with material if I use this model.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Man, ya'll just can't get over using the left side of techniques can you? Let me give an example.

I learned to drive right here in the good ole USA, on the right side of the road. I'd spent my entire life on that side as a passenger, then driver, and as a pedestrian. Then I'm uprooted from my homeland and sent to Jolly ole England. WOW, this was a shock for driving and being a pedestrian as I'd only known one side all my life. Driving from the right side is a little odd to get used to but the pedals were the same, but shifting with the left hand proved to be a problem, to this day. I eventually learned with enough concentration to handle London traffic on the Motroways (The A-1, A-5), driving thru small villages with roads not much wider than the car I was in, etc. Hell, I even got pretty good at it, but what happened one day just scared the living S*** out of me. I had just woken up, late for work and was 45 miles from the base at my girlfriends place. In my early morning primitive state, guess what, I was driving on the right side of the road again, and causing a big problem with oncoming traffic to say the least, and I didn't even realize that I was the one in error. I was flashing my lights and horn and everything else to tell people get the hell out of my way until after a couple of minutes, I remembered where I was and quickly got back in my own lane, never to loose concentration like that again (fortuately for them). I shows that no matter how hard you concentrate, you can't get the subconscious brain functioning out of normal from a primitive state, no matter how hard you try. Kenpo is a strongsided system, period, so get used to it. Enhance the primitive state of your brain (the fight or flight reflexes) and engraine your Kenpo to stay in that area for the crisis situation. You'll find you'll react without a thought, but an action of consequence, and a trained one if you've done it well enough.

If you suddenly find yourself in a position to do Delayed Sword on the Left side, you could just as easily do an extension of a technique learned on the right side (If you've learned the extensions) and not fight yourself trying to do something from the weak side. PLEASSEE, Stop the madness.

BTW, Scott, you really have so many answers you should be the Professor, spot on 99% of the time, good on ya!!!!.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Goldendragon7]

Mr. Parker and I have had many talks about our system and different training methods... and after 25 years in the studio with a multitude of fine students practicing techniques both the original and opposite sides.... I have seen the success.

That is not to say that many of the statements made are wrong.... the system is directed at the "norm" or right hand attacks most of the time, and yes, uniquely the system (one sided) does duplicate and produce opposite techniques normally. So, that is ONE Method of training. Everyone is free to maintain that if they like.

I on the other hand during my early months of training didn't do the opposite sides... then was asked at purple belt to "go back" and start working on the opposites. I found this a little difficult since I had got into a comfort zone with only one side. I did manage to learn the stuff but resisted as many of you are now showing.

I wasn't until after I started with Mr. Parker that the opposite and reverse Kenpo Tool really hit me. While converting over to exactly what Mr. Parker wanted the topic came up as to doing "both sides".... he said...... "sure, why not"?..... I thought about this and developed a "jingle" so that the students would have a format to do both sides on while practicing the material.

In our discussions (with Mr. Parker) it was determined that we teach the beginner to punch with the right hand...... right!? as well as the Left hand. We teach to kick with the right foot ...... as well as the left foot....... Well if an opponent could attack with a right lapel grab or right punch...... then he could also attack with the opposite........ SO WHY NOT PRACTICE BOTH. Well, we do, all basics, forms, sets, techniques and drills.

When you really get down to it, all you are doing is practicing the art in its fullness and at the same time working all your body parts like a body builder for symmetry and excellence. What will it hurt?....... You ARE TRAINING KENPO! ....... What do you have to do the rest of your life but train Kenpo....... lol.

Now, I'm NOT saying that other "METHODS" of training the Art do not work ..... just that this is as valid as any other and "I personally" see many additional benefits on top of just training the "base side", and I have watched several generations of students do quite well also, that's all.

:asian:

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


When you really get down to it, all you are doing is practicing the art in its fullness and at the same time working all your body parts like a body builder for symmetry and excellence. What will it hurt?....... You ARE TRAINING KENPO! ....... What do you have to do the rest of your life but train Kenpo....... lol.

Now, I'm NOT saying that other "METHODS" of training the Art do not work ..... just that this is as valid as any other and "I personally" see many additional benefits on top of just training the "base side", and I have watched several generations of students do quite well also, that's all.

:asian:

And what other ADDITIONAL BENEFITS?


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Zoran]

I have a question. For those that teach EPAK techs from one side, and it is supposed to be the strong side. Do you teach left handers the tech from the opposite side?

 

[jeffkyle]

See a problem with practicing a technique both sides, it helps in several ways. But i think the techniques were designed for right hand dominance but there were also many options with other techniques as well for "what if's".
How practicing anything on the right or left side is good for anyone, I don't believe I would make it manditory to learn this system that way.

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by jeffkyle

Is.....When we are talking about performing the technique on the opposite side, we talking about us doing it with the other side, i.e Delayed sword with a left inward block, left kick, and left chop?
And now that the defense has changed does the attack change as well. Because there are some techniques that won't work with the same attack, and you performing that technique on the opposite side as intended. Any one else confused yet?

Well yes, the attack would be from the other side too. Delayed Sword would be a defense from an attack with the left hand and Sword of Desruction would be a defense from an attack with the right hand.

 

[jeffkyle]

I didn't get through the whole thread before i replied...once i read through i saw that was part of it too. I guess i was too anxious to talk.

 

[Michael Billings]

Don't be disparaging of other's practicing it! When you are talking "primitive" or "hind" brain, that too depends on what you have been exposed to and for how long you trained. When we run Black Belt technique lines and one of the Seniors yells "Left Side", I found it in my best interest to be able to do it on that side. I was greatful to an instructor who had insisted we learn it on both sides from the get go.

We do what we are trained to do, hopefully spontaineously, certainly very fast mechanically for Brown Belts.

Additional benefits - for a beginner, hmmm? They have a more limited repertoire, say the opponent's friends are on your right; Delayed Sword on the left would keep you facing his friends rather than Sword of Destruction or Alternating Maces where your back is toward your opponents friends (allies.) It also assists in teaching the beginner to be "active" with both hands as verses an "active" and "passive" hand. A good drill is running a technique line against a right grab / left grap, right push / left push, right punch / left punch ... then alternate to left first the right throughout the series. Nice brisk workout to warm up and think about using both hands.

Nope, don't guess I will give it up. When I did Tracy stuff I was much more one-handed and you could plainly see how the system was implemented in the early 60's. I see it as adding another layer of sophistication to our training. But there is room for you and others to do it anyway you want. Just don't try to convince me your way is "better".

-Michael
UKS-Texas

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, thanks, Jason, but I don't do private messages when I'm on a public forum. At present, I'm one of Larry Tatum's students out here in Pasadena; my first instructor was (and is) Toni Wasserberger, who got her BB from Larry around '86--she got kicked by him and by Mr. Parker, so I'd guess that counts.

I am sorry, but I still haven't seen any responses to what I asked. For example, if a left-hander throws a left punch, what--other than a hypothetical attack, when other sorts of hypothesis can easily be offered to show that stepping forward left is a bad idea too--is the objection to either a) using a right-sided tech against a left punch, or b) stepping to the outside of the punch and using Delayed Sword or 5 Swords? It seems simpler to me, but I'm used to it.

Next: what's best for beginners to learn? I learned right side first, but what specifically are the arguments for both sides? beyond generalizations about ambidexterity, that is.

Then: why not let the sets and forms introduce the left side in their own good time? Wouldn't that be easier for students--at least, if they're doofusses such as I?

Last: there are a number of unanalyzed claims in kenpo. The privilege of the right side is one of them--it may be linked to the idea of, "fatherliness," in kenpo, but I'll spare y'all that. For now.

I guess we all get used to what we're used to, though.-

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Zoran

I have a question. For those that teach EPAK techs from one side, and it is supposed to be the strong side. Do you teach left handers the tech from the opposite side?

If they're having a hard time adjusting to it, then yes, but I've only had one that did. I've found most people may be left handed or left footed, but are dominant right when it comes to techniques for some odd reason (and I'm hoping Scott Bonner knows the answer to this, it would be really interesting to know why).

Forms and sets give you more than enough symmetry in the art to function with both sides simultaneously (and yes I'm a firm advocate of Left and Right side forms for that reason, especially Short 3), I'm not going to waste time doing and teaching all techniques and extensions on the left side when I can use that time to explore what's happening in the technique on the right side knowing it's happening exactly the same on the left side (I'm sure some will argue about the meridians and they're placement that aren't symmetrical). The system has (the complete one) a built in left mode, especially thru the extensions. There's all sorts of things happening in those that aren't introduced in the base technique but plenty happening in the base to get a good grasp of it. Believe me, I don't think it's wrong to teach it, just a waste of time. The right side will teach the left side to move, maybe not as fluidly (I can sign my name with my left hand but it sure doesn't look the same) but it will function just fine, just like typing teaches you dual hand coordination.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[jfarnsworth]

[First off, thanks, Jason, but I don't do private messages when I'm on a public forum. At present, I'm one of Larry Tatum's students out here in Pasadena; my first instructor was (and is) Toni Wasserberger, who got her BB from Larry around '86--she got kicked by him and by Mr. Parker, so I'd guess that counts.
QUOTE]

Robert,
The reason why I asked about the private message was because I didn't know if you wanted your info. all over the internet. Some people are funny that way. As far as my comment about your thoughts and ideas, I thought you had the same instructor I did!!!When reading your post it seemed you took the words right directly from my brain and posted it here. I just couldn't believe that almost exactly word for word was right in front of me. After being with Mr.C once he changed my mind about drills, techniques, and overall knowledge of kenpo. I happen to like his way of teaching, and his many numerous drills to keep practicing kenpo both sides, opposites, and reverses without seeming like your doing the same old ho hum things.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth

 

[D.Cobb]

When I was training in EPAK, we were taught the ideal, then told to practice it on the left almost exclusively and to do it right side for reference only, (this was only in the beginning stages of learning each technique). The theory put forth was that, what ever we taught our weak side, our strong side would learn automatically. So if we were good on our left side, then we'd be great on our right.

It seemed to work for us....
--Dave

:asian:

 

[Scott Bonner]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
I've found most people may be left handed or left footed, but are dominant right when it comes to techniques for some odd reason (and I'm hoping Scott Bonner knows the answer to this, it would be really interesting to know why). Clyde [/B]

I wish I could have thrown out some brilliant answer to meet expectations, but I don't have a clue!

So, I do the next best thing and consult with my wife. Since she's the one in grad school, she is much more up-to-date on psych stuff.

The old ideas about the brain working in hemispheres and hemisphere dominance (the cause of handedness) is proving too simplistic to explain everything. Handedness isn't simple or straightforward. Following brain dominance is the "lazy" way for the brain to figure out how to do things -- it's not a "preference" so much as a default pathway. Training can quickly override hemisphere dominance, and neural connections will be made for the "off" side that are just as strong as the ones for the "dominant" side -- just as fast and effective, more so if the off side is used more.

This is more true for gross motor functions than fine motor functions, and in martial arts we do gross motor functions. Also, different people have different degrees of handedness. Training can and often does override handedness. For most people, handedness is only a factor for fine motor functions (like writing). Then, gross motor functions (like throwing a baseball) are taught on the same hand that we write with, so we feel like we are "right handed throwers" when, if we had been taught lefty from the start, we would feel like "left handed throwers".

Martial arts taught from the right for most people will make them "right handed" even if they are lefty for fine motor skills. With few exceptions, people are no-handed when learning new gross motor skills. It's just them thinking "I can't do it as well 'cause I'm left handed" that may get in the way.

So, in conclusion, for gross motor skills, handedness is nearly illusory for most people. Few actually have brain dominance so hard-wired that it significantly affects gross motor skills. In any case, training overrides hand dominance quickly, so that almost immediately handedness is no longer a factor -- except in one's head.

On the other hand, I've heard of people who claim they are completely unable to do anything with their "off" hand no matter how hard they try, which means either that they are really good at psyching themselves out or they are among the very few that are so hard-wired for hand dominance that it continues to be a factor in even gross motor functions.

Peace,
Scott