Mirroring Techniques

[MJS]

ok, now that the thread has moved safely into a discussion of benefits of doing the techs on both sides (the “why”), and away from the tips to enhance learning them (or, the “how”), logic and forum etiquette should now allow the “whens” and “why nots” to be explored.

i’ve already posted upstream why practicing a mirrored tech is very different from practicing a form containing the movements of mirrored tech. i also gave examples of some mirrored techs that seem to be practical in self-defense situations, and others that when mirrored may be redundant with existing techs. not that redundancy is necessarily bad, but time, commitment, and at what expense begs the question “when?”

the kenpo that i practice is based on consistent patterns and principles. those patterns and principles are exemplified in the forms and techniques… and when I say techniques, i speak of base plus extensions. while i’d agree that exploration of mirrors might reveal principles to some students who may not have grasped it first time out, i’d be hard pressed to say that there is anything new to be learned from them. time may better be spent learning the originals with better understanding.

so then, if… i follow with when? i understand from reading this very interesting thread that ed parker said that techs should be learned in left/right mirrored versions… but not when?

i also understand that ed parker was also fascinated with reverse motion, and I’ve heard tales of him training his students to learn forms and techs in reverse motion… but not when?

i’ve also heard that the kenpo techniques can be applied to ground fighting and done from a prone position… but not when?

yes… i would like to train for a headlock with the attacker standing to my right, and a rear bear hug with the attackers left hand on top, but also see the value in applying Thrusting Prongs or Heavenly Ascent from the ground, and maybe a bit curious about reverse motion…. but when?

i’ll safely say that my when will be after I, personally, have a much better understanding and ability with the techniques, extensions, forms, and sets…

pete.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're asking when to begin do the techs. on the opp. side?? If thats the case, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but IMO, I feel that its important to get the base techs. down first, and then go on to doing the opp side. The same can be said for the extensions.

As for doing the techs. from the ground. I've talked with Clyde about this, and after discussing a few, have actually applied them on the ground while grappling. However, slight mods. need to be made, but they can be done.

mike

 

[GAB]

Hi, I see this topic is still going, pretty impressive.

I was reading some of the last posts and it reminded me of when my youngest son (he was in his late 20's at the time) taught a lot and was very good at the ability to mirror while teaching.

He would tell the students to move the way he was moving and not look into the mirrors just to concentrate on him, he would be doing the Kata or tech in front of them, only doing it in the obverse of the kata, when he was teaching in this method his students learned quite rapidly, especially the younger ones.

He was doing it for himself as much as he was to teach the class, it became a challenge to do it just the opposite. He gradually got to where he did everything, that he could do on the one side, as well on the other.

Try it, it is very diffucult and time consuming for most people, so they will make up reasons not to do it. He felt it was a way to assist the students and to keep it enjoyable for himself.
Parents and spectators were always telling him how they respected his teaching abilities, while other practitioners of the various Martial Arts that he taught were (and are) in awe, myself included, talk about going to a different level.

Regards, Gary

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Good job MJ!! Keep up the hard work!! Don't let the negative words of certain people get you down. With time, you'll be flying through the techs. with ease!!

Mike

Thanks Mike!

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Hi, I see this topic is still going, pretty impressive.

I was reading some of the last posts and it reminded me of when my youngest son (he was in his late 20's at the time) taught a lot and was very good at the ability to mirror while teaching.

He would tell the students to move the way he was moving and not look into the mirrors just to concentrate on him, he would be doing the Kata or tech in front of them, only doing it in the obverse of the kata, when he was teaching in this method his students learned quite rapidly, especially the younger ones.

He was doing it for himself as much as he was to teach the class, it became a challenge to do it just the opposite. He gradually got to where he did everything, that he could do on the one side, as well on the other.

Try it, it is very diffucult and time consuming for most people, so they will make up reasons not to do it. He felt it was a way to assist the students and to keep it enjoyable for himself.
Parents and spectators were always telling him how they respected his teaching abilities, while other practitioners of the various Martial Arts that he taught were (and are) in awe, myself included, talk about going to a different level.

Regards, Gary

Wow GAB I see you have a lot of experience - 44+ years :asian: I'm glad to see your son was so successful! It's good to know that the results of his hard work in this area paid off. Thanks for sharing your story!

MJ :asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

.
I get my best training in the park at 1-2 AM, because there are no distractions, and I can tinker with reversing a form or mirroring techs, taking my time, thoughtfully picking my way through the daisies. Class time in a studio doesn't really afford that, but there is no good reason Snapping Twig can't be drilled on both sides during class.

An important point you make here Dr. Dave. I agree you really have to make the time to do this. Class time really does not afford this, especially when you factor in the teaching time as well which cuts into your own training time a bit. I'm not sure 2 am in the park will work for me zzzzzzzzzz, but it certainly is creative! Certain techniques could be drilled this way in class.

Thanks for sharing all of your thoughts on this!

MJ :asian:

 

[cblaze230]

MJ.

another fantastic challenge after the shodan test!!! I was fortunate enough that during my review phase before my BB test my instructor had me mirroring everything at brown belt working backwards and up to my current ikkyu level on the techs, katas, forms, etc. I wish i could have seen the look on my face when he suggested that i begin doing it RIGHT NOW before my next test so that i was capable of defending from any attack on any line or angle during the test and in the street. after months of feeling like i couldn't walk let alone actually do delayed sword on both sides like i meant it the extra practice paid off big time during teaching and the test. stick with it..like someone mentioned earlier your brain already has been wired for the motion you just have to flick the switches in a different order. you will get it and recall it correctly. in a few months you'll be just as good on the weak side as the strong side and you'll find the flow gets better. cheers good luck, have fun. CB

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I was fortunate enough that during my review phase before my BB test my instructor had me mirroring everything at brown belt working backwards and up to my current ikkyu level on the techs, katas, forms, etc. I wish i could have seen the look on my face when he suggested that i begin doing it RIGHT NOW before my next test so that i was capable of defending from any attack on any line or angle during the test and in the street.

LOL I would like to have seen that look on your face too!

after months of feeling like i couldn't walk let alone actually do delayed sword on both sides like i meant it the extra practice paid off big time during teaching and the test.

That's excellent to hear!

stick with it..like someone mentioned earlier your brain already has been wired for the motion you just have to flick the switches in a different order. you will get it and recall it correctly. in a few months you'll be just as good on the weak side as the strong side and you'll find the flow gets better. cheers good luck, have fun.

Yes the part about being wired for the motion is interesting. I think there is some truth to that. I find that to be true even of new moves I learn, as many of them are extensions of things I've already learned. They do come easier.

Thanks for the encouragement CB!

MJ :asian:

 

[pete]

I feel that its important to get the base techs. down first, and then go on to doing the opp side. The same can be said for the extensions.

yep, dats what i'm thinking, mike... get a full understanding and ability to execute the techniques with their extensions first, be able to move within the principles, graft, activate, insert, delete, prefix, suffix... plus invest time and energy into the internal aspects of the forms to benefit from what solo practice has to offer... then move on to exploring mirrors, ground applications, and reverse motion.

or, is this too close to what robert was saying?

Thrusting prongs from under a mount? Good luck.

ahh, you see i am not there yet, but can see how this might be a good candidate for ground application, as might Heavenly Ascent. Your 5-Swords sounds good too...

If you train both sides of a tech everytime you learn them, you will already have an answer for the headlock.

i used that as a specific example, 'cause i do secretly play with grip o' death, spiraling wrist, and flight to freedom, and maybe a coupla more. same as i'd like to play with a coupla techs from the ground, but can't say i'd want to do all of them until i explore other things, like...

chin-na stuff is built in if you've an eye as to where to look for it, and some have a better eye for it than others

.. developing that eye, and "feel" for it. i wouldn't feel complete with my techniques until i can develop that feel for where the control points are in each application. learning tai chi under Master William Ting, and Chin Na in seminars with Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming to develop the sensitivity and feel for it.

but, heck this is just me and what i am looking to get out of my training at this point in time.

I get my best training in the park at 1-2 AM

do you use actual muggers...

pete

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

do you use actual muggers...

Most midnite muggers leave alone the crazy karate guys beating on trees well after the bars close.

 

[GAB]

Dr. Dave,

Sounds like a story I heard about about "Uncle Bill" a Dutch Indonesian Silat practitioner. Beating bark with his bare hands and denting large trash containers in the early morning hours... Everytime I hear a story like you are talking about I think of him, Tough to the bone. I always laugh and chuckle. Regards, Gary

 

[Doc]

It's all busy work and has nothing to do with proficiency in a well taught system.

 

[GAB]

Hi Doc,
I see we are on the same topic but a different page (I am on 10 you are on 11).
I am now a supporting member and am much more inclined to have a good informative talk, have you been dodging me? Or are you just very busy?
I have posted a few times with questions in mind for you. As you have said, "was up"?

I figured since our last time talking on the board, you were not so inclined.
I have posted my profile so maybe we can have a good disscussion? What do you think.

I am not as narrow minded as some have said, (other board) I am not as gullible as others, who seek wisdom without proper guidence.

I do believe hard work and proficiency go hand in glove. I would think any system has its good, bad and ugly techniques. Some just have more of one then the other.

Lots of choreography out in the schools, not that it is all bad in the earlier teachings, but it sure looks bad when in the higher learning aspects we still feel like explaining, how someone will act to a certain punch based on all the mysterious positions they have got to be in to move the way we feel they should...

If you are inclined to observe the actual combat of the art of fighting, it will quickly dispel much of the aguements.

I feel the real test is the person who has been there and done it. We both fall into that pot. I enjoy your posts, most of them anyway, rhetoric sure turns people into someone seeking office.

How about it Doc are you going to answer some of my threads or just skirt them?

Regards, Gary

 

[ReturningThunder]

i like mirroring techniques beacuse that way you can work out both sides of your body

 

[tsunami]

For several years now my intructor has had us doing all forms through six on both sides. It was tough at first but now we do it quite naturaly. Sometimes we run the line lefty also. I feel it is good to work the muscle memory on both sides makes flowing easier and cuts down on brain lock during spontainous attack drills.

works for me, George

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh--the forms already ARE always done on both sides. By everybody who learns them.

 

[tsunami]

O.K. you got me, I should have stated that we do all the forms starting normaly and then continue form to do the opposite side starting. Mirroring the entire form not just each tech within. If this is how everybody learns all of the forms, than I have been missing out on something. Also, you do not mirror techs when doing short 3 without doing left side starting to pick up the missing angle of 9:00.

Take it easy, George

 

[rmcrobertson]

Man, I dunno how you're doing Short 3, but I'm doing both sides since about 1997, and so is everybody else I know who's got that far.

As for the 9 o'clock deal, well, there's orientation of the hands and then there's orientation of stances.

 

[Seig]

Robert,
Quite simple what he is talking about is the same thing we do in the IKKO, once you have done the form, you come back to the beginning and do it opposite side of how it started.

 

[John Bishop]

Just a small reminder for some of the members. Not all of our members read all the posts here. If you direct a question to a particular member, please do not be offended if you don't get an immediate answer. In fact you may not get any answer at all, if that member misses your post or has no opinion he/she wishes to share on it. And please, do not bait any members in a attempt to bring them into the discussion. Constant participation is not required of any members here.

Back to the discussion

 

[Hand Sword]

Does training the weaker side to try to do the tech's as the stronger side does really accomplish anything. I 've seen people try relentlessly to do so, but, never reach proficiency with the weaker side. Should the weaker side have the focus of performing speacialized tech's, such as the function of a jab, hook, etc.? From my experiences, that seems to get better results, or as some of my kali/escrima friends said when they brought up the use of the stick with both hands to instructors, and got the answer: better to be 100% effective in one side, than to be 50/50.