Mirroring Techniques

[Kenpodoc]

As a requirement for second black, I am challenged to begin mirroring my techniques. I went back here on MT and read an interesting thread by tshadowchaser entitled - left-right? and the thread debated the necessity of doing this. There were some interesting arguments on both sides. However, as this is a requirement for me I don't have the luxury of deciding whether or not it's something I'd like to do, or personally find necessary, although I'm hoping I will find benefits to doing this.

For years now I've been training these techniques one sided and now have to rethink how I do them. To help me prepare for this I mirrored a few techniques in my personal form for my black belt. It was simply confusing - a major brain drain! This is something that we are expected to learn on our own, and right now I think I'm dreading the process, and am already putting off starting it. I'm wondering if anyone who teaches this or has self taught technique mirroring has any insights, ideas, suggestions, or recommendations on how to make this process a little less painful.

Thanks,
MJ :asian:

Unfortunately, I don't think that there is an easy way to do this. I wouldn't call it painful to learn new movements, I just remind myself that we learn everything in little bits. Our brain is not symmetrical and so we do not learn symmetrically. Enjoy the process and do not worry about the destination.

I took a seminar with Paul Dye which helped me a lot with this process. In the seminar he talked about regulating techniques and changing the majors and the minors. When mirroring a technique remember that your skills are not symetrical and that the mirror version will have similar movements but different feel and effect. (Sort of like finding different Bunkai in Kata.) Thus when a technique is mirrored, frequently the Minors become majors and visa versa.

Respectfully,

Jeff

PS This is a good question. I'm embarassed I responded so late.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Unfortunately, I don't think that there is an easy way to do this. I wouldn't call it painful to learn new movements, I just remind myself that we learn everything in little bits. Our brain is not symmetrical and so we do not learn symmetrically. Enjoy the process and do not worry about the destination.

I took a seminar with Paul Dye which helped me a lot with this process. In the seminar he talked about regulating techniques and changing the majors and the minors. When mirroring a technique remember that your skills are not symetrical and that the mirror version will have similar movements but different feel and effect. (Sort of like finding different Bunkai in Kata.) Thus when a technique is mirrored, frequently the Minors become majors and visa versa.

Respectfully,

Jeff

PS This is a good question. I'm embarassed I responded so late.

Thanks Kenpodoc I'll keep this all in mind. This is the first time I've seen reference to majors and minors. It's an interesting way to view it all really! Also you're not too late I haven't even started. I'll make my first attempt tomorrow. My usual motto for everything btw is to enjoy the journey :boing1: so I'll remind myself of that again here!


Thanks,
MJ :asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

:wavey: Just wanted to let you know I'm off to a great start! During my private lesson today I went over the first five techniques with my instructor. He had me do them regular first and then the off side, and it went very well! Yeah!!! The hardest one was Sword of Destruction. I had to think about it a bit, but doing the regular way first and breaking it down into smaller pieces as some of you suggested really helped.

Thanks!

MJ

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

:wavey: Just wanted to let you know I'm off to a great start! During my private lesson today I went over the first five techniques with my instructor. He had me do them regular first and then the off side, and it went very well! Yeah!!! The hardest one was Sword of Destruction. I had to think about it a bit, but doing the regular way first and breaking it down into smaller pieces as some of you suggested really helped.

Thanks!

MJ

One of the blessings and curses of dyslexia...mirroring. My early kenpo classes always consisted of learning & drilling both sides of a SD technique, which I personally believe set the stage for good globalization of application...generally. The disadvantage was this: I have a hard enough time remembering technique names (they remain for me, mostly, "the one against a 2-hand lapel grab with the hoopdy thingy at the end")...mirroring added the problem of not knowing which side was the correct "regular" side. Made tests a bit hard. Mirroring, however, was an integral part of testing in my particular vein of Chinese Kenpo: Each technique had to be demonstrated 4 times on each side...once slow speed, articulating the moves as you go; once medium speed putting it together in motion; once at break-neck speed to show "combat readiness", and then again at break-neck speed on a human to show placement and control...both of self, and uke.

It was hard for me to go back to doing techs on one side, but now it's certainly easier to not get tripped up during foot maneuvers.

D.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

(they remain for me, mostly, "the one against a 2-hand lapel grab with the hoopdy thingy at the end")...

LOL :lol: I sympathize with you on the tech names! :erg: We could probably start a thread on the different mnemonics we use as memory hooks to try and discriminate between them all.

mirroring added the problem of not knowing which side was the correct "regular" side.

This was my first question to my instructor today. How do you distinguish between them once you learn them? He assures me I will not get tripped up, and he's always right but I still have that concern. I think I might actively say in my mind Delayed Sword off side...etc., I think ones like Alternating Mace will be confusing eventually because OMG I already sometimes forget which side steps back. It's just one of those things for me I think.

Made tests a bit hard. Mirroring, however, was an integral part of testing in my particular vein of Chinese Kenpo: Each technique had to be demonstrated 4 times on each side...once slow speed, articulating the moves as you go; once medium speed putting it together in motion; once at break-neck speed to show "combat readiness", and then again at break-neck speed on a human to show placement and control...both of self, and uke.

Sounds like a really long test!

It was hard for me to go back to doing techs on one side,

I think I'm concerned more from a teaching standpoint. I'd hate to confuse someone else...

but now it's certainly easier to not get tripped up during foot maneuvers.

Good to hear there are benefits! Thanks Dr. Dave!

 

[Rob Broad]

Actually learning your off side will make you a better instructor. You will now know it iwll be like for a left handed student to learn the art. You will also have a greater understanding of the mechanics of motion.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Actually learning your off side will make you a better instructor. You will now know it iwll be like for a left handed student to learn the art. You will also have a greater understanding of the mechanics of motion.

Robert had an interesting quote earlier in the thread about losing some of the subtleties (okuden?) by switching to off-sides too soon. What are your thoughts on the idea that most folks probably never even catch the subtleties the first time around, much less miss them on the second pass?

D

 

[Rob Broad]

Actually I think that by exploring the off side that practioner might pick up some the subtleties that they had previously missed. Especially if they are trying to figure out how and why things work on one side and not on the other.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Actually I think that by exploring the off side that practioner might pick up some the subtleties that they had previously missed. Especially if they are trying to figure out how and why things work on one side and not on the other.

I think this is a good point. Sometimes we will work a technique for an entire class and really tear the technique apart, and during these times I learn the most and always seem to come away with a deeper understanding. In working the off side today especially say for Sword of Destruction, I had to really engage in the process of breaking the technique down and be able to think about the technique in order to execute it on the other side. If nothing else, it forced me to check my form, and helped reinforce the positioning on the "regular" side as well. I am also beginning to see now that doing this will give me options that I had not considered using before. :asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

When we work a technique for an entire class and really tear the technique apart, I learn the most and always seem to come away with a deeper understanding.

Well, see there..... another testimonial with a positive reason to support the practice!!! Keep it up!

In working the off side say for Sword of Destruction, I had to really engage in the process of breaking the technique down and be able to think about the technique in order to execute it on the other side.

Yes, very good, I call this isolation training, where you have to focus down on particular sections of the technique to study the movements.

If nothing else, it forced me to check my form, and helped reinforce the positioning on the "regular" side as well.

Another good benefit!!

I am also beginning to see now that doing this will give me options that I had not considered using before.

Bravo.... mission accomplished! Now all you have to do is continue to participat in what I call "The Process"

:asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Well, see there..... another testimonial with a positive reason to support the practice!!! Keep it up!

Yes, very good, I call this isolation training, where you have to focus down on particular sections of the technique to study the movements.


Another good benefit!!


Bravo.... mission accomplished! Now all you have to do is continue to participat in what I call "The Process"

:asian:

Thanks Goldendragon! I'll stick with it, because...... :rofl: I think The Force may be rubbing off on me!!! :jedi1: I like your terminology too! Thanks! MJ:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Thanks Goldendragon!

:lookie:
:wink2:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

:lookie:
:wink2:

:lol:

 

[pete]

ok, now that the thread has moved safely into a discussion of benefits of doing the techs on both sides (the “why”), and away from the tips to enhance learning them (or, the “how”), logic and forum etiquette should now allow the “whens” and “why nots” to be explored.

i’ve already posted upstream why practicing a mirrored tech is very different from practicing a form containing the movements of mirrored tech. i also gave examples of some mirrored techs that seem to be practical in self-defense situations, and others that when mirrored may be redundant with existing techs. not that redundancy is necessarily bad, but time, commitment, and at what expense begs the question “when?”

the kenpo that i practice is based on consistent patterns and principles. those patterns and principles are exemplified in the forms and techniques… and when I say techniques, i speak of base plus extensions. while i’d agree that exploration of mirrors might reveal principles to some students who may not have grasped it first time out, i’d be hard pressed to say that there is anything new to be learned from them. time may better be spent learning the originals with better understanding.

so then, if… i follow with when? i understand from reading this very interesting thread that ed parker said that techs should be learned in left/right mirrored versions… but not when?

i also understand that ed parker was also fascinated with reverse motion, and I’ve heard tales of him training his students to learn forms and techs in reverse motion… but not when?

i’ve also heard that the kenpo techniques can be applied to ground fighting and done from a prone position… but not when?

yes… i would like to train for a headlock with the attacker standing to my right, and a rear bear hug with the attackers left hand on top, but also see the value in applying Thrusting Prongs or Heavenly Ascent from the ground, and maybe a bit curious about reverse motion…. but when?

i’ll safely say that my when will be after I, personally, have a much better understanding and ability with the techniques, extensions, forms, and sets…

pete.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Interesting questions Pete I'll leave it to the experienced...

 

[Rob Broad]

Those are great questions Pete. They will have my brain playing for hours now. I alomst see this as the point where a new post should be started, because we are branching off into other territorries with such great questions.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Those are great questions Pete. They will have my brain playing for hours now. I alomst see this as the point where a new post should be started, because we are branching off into other territorries with such great questions.

Go for it Rob!

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Pete:

I'll bite. Take the 1st coupla moves from 5-swords. I was taught that the inward block has a raking/sliding movement along the radial edge of the attacking/offending limb, which is then looped like a figure-8 immediately into the outward handsword, then palm heel or 2-finger spear to eyes (depending on level), the uppercut, etc. Say you are mounted on top of a guy, and he is trying to press you off by applying pressure to the chest. If it's with his right hand, standard side 5/7 swords (at least the first coupla moves). If with the opposite side, sam ting, just mirrored.

Thrusting prongs from under a mount? Good luck. I think you'll just piss the guy off whose mounted you, and invite a tantrum of downward thrusting punches to a head with nowhere to go.

If you train both sides of a tech everytime you learn them, you will already have an answer for the headlock.

The kenpo I practiced contained Universal elements of motion, indicating application from a number of positions. I was taught that SD techs did not so much represent a pre-programmed response to an attack, as much as introductions to applications of the vocabulary of motion from any odd number of positions. I (and any kenpo practitioner with a mind to) can pop a guy with pretty much any part of my body from any number of funky positions, whether the guy is in front of me, off to the side, behind me, etc....I don't need him to be located directly in front of me so I can assail him from my front stance with a reverse punch. Of course, not so big a deal for a forum full of kenpoka. 25 years ago, however, this was all but unheard of in the world of karate. Karate was Shotokan, Wado-Ryu, Shito-Tyu, TKD, Hapkido, etc., much of which contend with attacks from the front, most of which were other karate or classic budo attacks (lotsa defenses against reverse punches, not that many against side club attacks or 2-hand lapel grabs).

When to train mirrors? In my mind, ALWAYS!. I get my best training in the park at 1-2 AM, because there are no distractions, and I can tinker with reversing a form or mirroring techs, taking my time, thoughtfully picking my way through the daisies. Class time in a studio doesn't really afford that, but there is no good reason Snapping Twig can't be drilled on both sides during class.

Kenpo grappling...some of the jujutsu/chin-na stuff is built in if you've an eye as to where to look for it, and some have a better eye for it than others (ref: Doc, and his uncanny ability to identify and twist things in directions they shouldn't oughtta be twisted). That being said, I still have not discovered a "how to side-pass the guard while maintaining the opponent in a pinned position and not get sucked into a heel-lock, triangle, collar choke, sleeve-wheel choke, or arm-bar" tech in reverse of a form or tech. Some stuff is just "different animal". Anybody in the forum see an upa dismount hidden in Short 3 somewhere?

Excellent questions, though. Look forward to seeing others' responses.

D.

 

[MJS]

:wavey: Just wanted to let you know I'm off to a great start! During my private lesson today I went over the first five techniques with my instructor. He had me do them regular first and then the off side, and it went very well! Yeah!!! The hardest one was Sword of Destruction. I had to think about it a bit, but doing the regular way first and breaking it down into smaller pieces as some of you suggested really helped.

Thanks!

MJ

Good job MJ!! Keep up the hard work!! Don't let the negative words of certain people get you down. With time, you'll be flying through the techs. with ease!!

Mike

 

[Rob Broad]

Go for it Rob!

I will let someone else post these questions. Possibly Pete or yourself could start appropriate threads.