Learning much higher ranked forms...

[Flying Crane]

Well, if I look at a kata that (as viewed) appears to be mostly about strikes (say, from Shotokan Karate, since their strikes are very close to NGA). Now I can replicate those movements using the closest NGA movements. I don't have to come up with a string of movements to work with - someone else already has. Mind you, the information I'm using if I do that isn't much different than if you suggested I use "straight punch, pivot left to low block, front kick, pivot and step right to high cross block..." It's a superficial read either way. So, why use an existing list? Because I'm almost certain to run into a transition I don't like and wouldn't have thought to put in. A different challenge than stringing together bits I consciously choose to work on (either because I like them or because I suck at them).

This is actually not difficult to do (it is actually a shortcut). It's what I did when developing the single-stick, double-stick, and staff kata I use. I took the movement pattern from my Classical kata and simply fit new techniques to the same movements, as closely as possible.

But you had learned your Classical kata first, yes? You didn’t learn it from a video and then sort of recreate it to fit your material?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But you had learned your Classical kata first, yes? You didn’t learn it from a video and then sort of recreate it to fit your material?

I created the Classical kata, but that's irrelevant. I only used the basic movement pattern - the most superficial of information. I literally just wanted the direction of foot movement and (where possible) some of the hand movement to mimic what was in the Classical kata to make them easier to learn. I had a diagram of the Classical kata out, and just walked through the movements, substituting in weapon use, instead. I didn't necessarily repeat any of the principles or focus of that kata in the others.

I could have found any other kata and done the same. For instance if my German student was still studying (he had a Shotokan background and still practiced his Shotokan kata), I could take a Shotokan kata and use the movement pattern as a template for making him a weapon kata he could learn more quickly. Since I wouldn't be trying to actually understand or use what Shotokan meant from it, it doesn't matter that I don't understand the depth of the kata.

 

[Flying Crane]

I created the Classical kata, but that's irrelevant. I only used the basic movement pattern - the most superficial of information. I literally just wanted the direction of foot movement and (where possible) some of the hand movement to mimic what was in the Classical kata to make them easier to learn. I had a diagram of the Classical kata out, and just walked through the movements, substituting in weapon use, instead. I didn't necessarily repeat any of the principles or focus of that kata in the others.

I could have found any other kata and done the same. For instance if my German student was still studying (he had a Shotokan background and still practiced his Shotokan kata), I could take a Shotokan kata and use the movement pattern as a template for making him a weapon kata he could learn more quickly. Since I wouldn't be trying to actually understand or use what Shotokan meant from it, it doesn't matter that I don't understand the depth of the kata.

Well, I guess I disagree with you. What you describe strikes me as a method that would likely yield poorer results than simply developing your own, from your own material.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, I guess I disagree with you. What you describe strikes me as a method that would likely yield poorer results than simply developing your own, from your own material.

I suspect that would be more true of someone with expertise in forms from long experience.

 

[Headhunter]

Also ill add to this. Forms aren't just a bunch of moves thrown together there's always concept behind it and application which you need to learn when doing the form. If you learn a form online sure you can do the moves and look good but you don't understand /what/ you're doing that's where forms become ineffective there's way to forms than just kicking and punching. For example I could go teach myself a form online using a samurai sword and I could wave that sword around just as the video shows me. But if I have a sword fight against another person I wouldn't have a clue what to do I wouldn't understand how to block with the sword or counter because I wouldn't know that the moves in the form I was practicing were teaching defence

 

[drop bear]

Also ill add to this. Forms aren't just a bunch of moves thrown together there's always concept behind it and application which you need to learn when doing the form. If you learn a form online sure you can do the moves and look good but you don't understand /what/ you're doing that's where forms become ineffective there's way to forms than just kicking and punching. For example I could go teach myself a form online using a samurai sword and I could wave that sword around just as the video shows me. But if I have a sword fight against another person I wouldn't have a clue what to do I wouldn't understand how to block with the sword or counter because I wouldn't know that the moves in the form I was practicing were teaching defence

That could be explained on the video though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Also ill add to this. Forms aren't just a bunch of moves thrown together there's always concept behind it and application which you need to learn when doing the form. If you learn a form online sure you can do the moves and look good but you don't understand /what/ you're doing that's where forms become ineffective there's way to forms than just kicking and punching. For example I could go teach myself a form online using a samurai sword and I could wave that sword around just as the video shows me. But if I have a sword fight against another person I wouldn't have a clue what to do I wouldn't understand how to block with the sword or counter because I wouldn't know that the moves in the form I was practicing were teaching defence

This is part of my comments earlier, HH. I'd argue it's possible do know what they ARE doing, though they may not know what the creator of the kata INTENDED them to do. A kata doesn't have to follow the original intent and principles to be useful, so long as the person doing it applies useful principles and meaning. How do I know this? That's what the creator of the kata did. And, as information is inevitably lost over time, that's what people continue to do to keep the kata meaningful.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That could be explained on the video though.

It could be, though it can be difficult to explain some principles to someone who doesn't know the vocabulary. Different arts (indeed, different instructors within an art) use terms somewhat differently at times. And the easiest way to explain them is to refer back to the technique closest to what's in the kata, which only has meaning if the viewer knows that technique and performs it the same way. And from what I've heard some folks discuss about some kata, there are layers of depth in some of them. Explaining layers in a single video would get confusing.

But even a superficial overview of some of that would be enough to give the kata some meaning. At worst, the person would be getting a little physical exercise working through some new movements and figuring out how to make the balance transitions smooth.

 

[Flying Crane]

But even a superficial overview of some of that would be enough to give the kata some meaning. At worst, the person would be getting a little physical exercise working through some new movements and figuring out how to make the balance transitions smooth.

I would argue that it can actually be the opposite. Perhaps not in every case, but it certainly can be.

In my system, if you learned our forms through mimicry and without an understanding of the fundamentals, you can actually be injured by it.

Our physical techniques are done in a way that most people find unusual. They actually make perfect sense when you understand the foundation and the principles, but if you don’t, then you are very likely to make mistakes in how you execute, that can actually hurt you. When done incorrectly, our techniques can injure your shoulders.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is part of my comments earlier, HH. I'd argue it's possible do know what they ARE doing, though they may not know what the creator of the kata INTENDED them to do. A kata doesn't have to follow the original intent and principles to be useful, so long as the person doing it applies useful principles and meaning. How do I know this? That's what the creator of the kata did. And, as information is inevitably lost over time, that's what people continue to do to keep the kata meaningful.

I agree that one can find many applications for the same movement in a kata. And those interpretations may or may not match what the founder had in mind.

However, this is still dependent on understanding the fundamentals of the system, in order to develop reasonable and realistic applications from the kata.

These things are built upon an assumed base of knowledge. If that base is missing, or if you have a base that is significantly different, I really think you will get minimal benefit from the exercise. And as I mentioned earlier, it can actually be injurious.

I have no problem with people developing their own kata or kata-like exercise based on the material from the system in which they train. That is where the kata practiced today came from. These things were simply developed by people as a practice tool. These kata were not handed down from the gods, they are not divine or sacred, the folks who developed them were not divinely inspired to do so. They can be changed and new ones can be created.

Some people are better at creating them than others, and some kata were better designed by others, so all kata are not equal in my opinion. But it certainly can be done.

My advice: if you want kata and kata does not exist in your system, then develop some from the material and the concepts found in your system. Maybe get some guidance from a knowledgeable person who does practice kata; that could help you see possibilities in how you create your own. But dont poach them from other systems. It becomes a mis-match and it’s doesnt work. I’ve see it happen.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would argue that it can actually be the opposite. Perhaps not in every case, but it certainly can be.

In my system, if you learned our forms through mimicry and without an understanding of the fundamentals, you can actually be injured by it.

Our physical techniques are done in a way that most people find unusual. They actually make perfect sense when you understand the foundation and the principles, but if you don’t, then you are very likely to make mistakes in how you execute, that can actually hurt you. When done incorrectly, our techniques can injure your shoulders.

I don't doubt there are examples like that. If I went through them (without your training), I'd likely end up changing movements subtly (perhaps less than subtly in some cases) to make them make more sense to me, after tinkering with them and finding them too awkward to be usable. I was trying to say that (sort of) in a previous post. That's why it's important the person borrowing kata movements has a reasonable base for working with movement in general. I'm unlikely to injure myself with the kata movements, because I'd just adjust them to something that makes sense with the principles I understand. That's part of the adoption/adaptation of the superficial movement, rather than recreation of the kata, I was talking about.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree that one can find many applications for the same movement in a kata. And those interpretations may or may not match what the founder had in mind.

However, this is still dependent on understanding the fundamentals of the system, in order to develop reasonable and realistic applications from the kata.

That is true if I'm trying to find interpretation that is fitting to the original art. If I borrow movements from Goju-ryu kata, I won't be looking for Goju-ryu principles in them. I'll be looking for principles from what I know that work with the movements (as I see them).

You make a good point in this post, that's not entirely at odd with what I'm saying, FC. You and I are degrees apart, rather than at odds on this. If I tried to understand a Wing Chun form, for instance, I'd be crazy (and probably learning bad information) trying to understand it on my own. But if I use the basic movements (as I see them) to dig into principles from NGA, it'd just be an intellectual exercise that might be useful but is unlikely to cause harm. For instance, the stance (which name I've forgotten) that is throughout Siu Lim Tao is wrong for what I do - it simply wouldn't make sense. But there is a stance that's visually a bit similar, which is traditionally used when teaching a straight punch. It's close enough that I could substitute it. Some of the hand movements seem odd, but are close to movements I might use in hand-fighting or grip transitions, so I substitute the visually similar movement I know. In the end, my "Siu Lim Tao" isn't really Siu Lim Tao. It's an approximation using movements from what I actually know. And it makes me examine some transitions between movement that I might not choose to look at on my own.

Mind you, it's entirely an intellectual/physical exercise, not a real training exercise that would make sense in the long term. It'd be something to tinker with and get me thinking differently. A bit like when I go to a seminar in a style I don't have experience in. I won't really learn those techniques properly (as defined by the art in question), either, but I pretty much always come away with a new thought or understanding about one of the arts or techniques I already knew.

 

[Flying Crane]

That is true if I'm trying to find interpretation that is fitting to the original art. If I borrow movements from Goju-ryu kata, I won't be looking for Goju-ryu principles in them. I'll be looking for principles from what I know that work with the movements (as I see them).

You make a good point in this post, that's not entirely at odd with what I'm saying, FC. You and I are degrees apart, rather than at odds on this. If I tried to understand a Wing Chun form, for instance, I'd be crazy (and probably learning bad information) trying to understand it on my own. But if I use the basic movements (as I see them) to dig into principles from NGA, it'd just be an intellectual exercise that might be useful but is unlikely to cause harm. For instance, the stance (which name I've forgotten) that is throughout Siu Lim Tao is wrong for what I do - it simply wouldn't make sense. But there is a stance that's visually a bit similar, which is traditionally used when teaching a straight punch. It's close enough that I could substitute it. Some of the hand movements seem odd, but are close to movements I might use in hand-fighting or grip transitions, so I substitute the visually similar movement I know. In the end, my "Siu Lim Tao" isn't really Siu Lim Tao. It's an approximation using movements from what I actually know. And it makes me examine some transitions between movement that I might not choose to look at on my own.

Mind you, it's entirely an intellectual/physical exercise, not a real training exercise that would make sense in the long term. It'd be something to tinker with and get me thinking differently. A bit like when I go to a seminar in a style I don't have experience in. I won't really learn those techniques properly (as defined by the art in question), either, but I pretty much always come away with a new thought or understanding about one of the arts or techniques I already knew.

I understand your reasoning behind this, but I see it like taking a VW Rabbit and deciding to drive it down a train track because you think there might be some intellectual exercise buried in there that might help you better understand how to drive. All it will do is wreck your car before you get very far down the track.

If you are driving a VW Rabbit, stick to the pavement. If you are a train engineer, stick to the tracks. Trying to mix them in this manner just is a waste of time and energy and doesn’t teach you anything that you didn’t already know: a VW Rabbit doesn’t drive well on train tracks.

Now it does depend on how closely the fundamentals of your system match the fundamentals of the system whose kata you are trying to poach. That might be like taking the Rabbit and doing some off-road driving with it. You can drive it on a gravel road without any trouble and you could probably drive it across your lawn without any damage. But the more rugged the terrain, the more likely you are to get stuck and damage the car. If you take it to the desert and try to drive it over the dunes, you’ve got trouble. If you take it to some rough off-road area with deep ruts and lots of rocks and boulders, you’ve got trouble.

So I recognize the existence of a continuum here.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I understand your reasoning behind this, but I see it like taking a VW Rabbit and deciding to drive it down a train track because you think there might be some intellectual exercise buried in there that might help you better understand how to drive. All it will do is wreck your car before you get very far down the track.

If you are driving a VW Rabbit, stick to the pavement. If you are a train engineer, stick to the tracks. Trying to mix them in this manner just is a waste of time and energy and doesn’t teach you anything that you didn’t already know: a VW Rabbit doesn’t drive well on train tracks.

Now it does depend on how closely the fundamentals of your system match the fundamentals of the system whose kata you are trying to poach. That might be like taking the Rabbit and doing some off-road driving with it. You can drive it on a gravel road without any trouble and you could probably drive it across your lawn without any damage. But the more rugged the terrain, the more likely you are to get stuck and damage the car. If you take it to the desert and try to drive it over the dunes, you’ve got trouble. If you take it to some rough off-road area with deep ruts and lots of rocks and boulders, you’ve got trouble.

So I recognize the existence of a continuum here.

I just don't see the analogy of a Rabbit on a train track, Michael. To me, it's a bit more like finding an engine and putting it in a spare Rabbit frame. It might not be meant for that, and it might or might not be any good there. Trying it will answer that second point.

 

[Flying Crane]

I just don't see the analogy of a Rabbit on a train track, Michael. To me, it's a bit more like finding an engine and putting it in a spare Rabbit frame. It might not be meant for that, and it might or might not be any good there. Trying it will answer that second point.

That’s alright, it’s just a point in which we differ. I’m giving you my thoughts, based on many years of heavy forms practice. You may not see it in the same way, but you also don’t have a lot of experience with form/kata based training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That’s alright, it’s just a point in which we differ. I’m giving you my thoughts, based on many years of heavy forms practice. You may not see it in the same way, but you also don’t have a lot of experience with form/kata based training.

Agreed. I think it's probably at least partly a vast difference in view of the use of forms.

 

[_Simon_]

This discussion has been very informative however, got a lot out of it, cheers guys

 

[JR 137]

This discussion has been very informative however, got a lot out of it, cheers guys

So you’re saying you’re practicing the Quart of Blood Technique? How’s it going? Ready to compare videos of us doing it yet?

 

[JR 137]

If you’re going to learn a kata from video, might as well go all out and do this one...

Just when it was cool to do karate again.

 

[_Simon_]

So you’re saying you’re practicing the Quart of Blood Technique? How’s it going? Ready to compare videos of us doing it yet?

Ah it's gonna take aLOT of hours put in to reach that standard... especially getting that breathing right... XD