Learning much higher ranked forms...

[Flying Crane]

I agree with what you’re saying. But consider the OP’s experience...

He has trained in Kyokushin karate. Kyokushin comes from Shotokan karate and Goju Ryu karate. The kata he’s interested in is an advanced Goju Ryu kata which isn’t taught in the Kyokushin syllabus. So rather it being an entirely new way of doing things, it would be more of an extension of things. He’s not looking to learn a Chinese internal form to mesh it with what he knows; he’s looking to expand the syllabus in a sense. Kind of along the lines of a Tang Soo Do practitioner looking to learn a Shotokan kata that’s not taught in TSD.

Sure, it’s not ideal to learn a kata from a video or a book. Sure, it’s best to improve what he already knows. But sometimes learning something new is fun. Sometimes learning something similar yet different helps gives a fresh perspective on what you already know.

The version of Yantsu kata I’ve learned as taught in my organization is different than the version it came from. Not night and day different, but easily recognizably different. Learning the other version of it would be interesting to me, and might help me make more sense of it in the long run.

For reference...
Yantsu practiced as I learned it...

Ansan (alternate pronunciation of Yantsu) as it’s done in Shito Ryu...

The first video is done to a count while the second isn’t. When done without a count, both versions are a lot closer in timing/flow than they appear in the videos.

Good points and yes there is a continuum on which this issue can lie. However, I will never encourage someone to learn from a video. I just do not believe in it.

 

[_Simon_]

Here is the thing. Or rather, one of the several things...

Different systems can have very different approaches in how they structure their foundation and fundamentals. And their forms are built in a way to take that into account.

If you don’t train that system and do not understand how the foundation and fundamentals are structured, then attempting to practice the form, especially if done with a video and without a teacher who could give you proper instruction, can actually be a waste of your time.

Believe it or not, there are actually things that you are better to NOT add to your training because it is inconsistent with what you do, and you do not understand how to do it correctly.

Here is another thing. A form is not a commodity to be collected, and not even something to be perfected. It is never perfect, and that’s is ok because making it perfect is not the point. Rather, it is a training exercise, meant to be done over and over as a way to improve the quality of your skills. The practice itself, if done properly and with good understanding, gives you a certain outcome. It isn’t meant to be turned into another shiny object. It takes a little mental flip to be able to see it in this way.

Very true, thanks for mentioning. Yeah I am for sure aware of the differences in how styles differ in foundation and structure. It would be detrimental to try something without any sort of background into the way the style operates. The forms I'd be interested in learning aren't too far a departure from what I'm used to and trained in. It would be silly for me to train a Wing Chin form coming from a karate foundation. Would be fun to try though XD but something that may not be fruitful.

And again, I'm certainly not professing any master status in anything to say that I have the authority to be able to train anything, and also not using kata as hitches or medals to put on my 'kata knowledge' post. That is what I would train them for, to enhance my skill and knowledge.

 

[_Simon_]

One other pro for learning a kata ahead of time...

There are kata that are somewhat acrobatic in nature. I’m not talking XMA or made up stuff, I’m talking traditional stuff - Unsu comes to mind...

We have a kata in Seido Juku called Seido Empi No Kata Sho...

Unsu is I believe a 3rd dan kata, possibly 4th (it’s not in our syllabus). Seido Empi No Kata Sho is taught at 4th dan. Being 41 and a 3rd kyu, if all goes well ( ), I’ll be a 4th dan at, what, 60 years old? I’ll probably be more broken down at 60 than I am currently at 41, making that one a bit harder to do.

There’s a 4th dan in our dojo who’s 65. A few weeks ago he was laughing about why he’s learning a college aged guy’s kata after he retired. The he said something along the lines of you look forward to doing the advanced rank stuff, but by the time you actually get there you’re pretty much too old to be able to actually do it, or at least to make it look good.

No ones getting any younger. I guess if you have the chance to do a kata like those, do them now???

Hehe true, whilst one can jump and spin etc it makes sense to learn those when you are physically capable XD

I agree with what you’re saying. But consider the OP’s experience...

He has trained in Kyokushin karate. Kyokushin comes from Shotokan karate and Goju Ryu karate. The kata he’s interested in is an advanced Goju Ryu kata which isn’t taught in the Kyokushin syllabus. So rather it being an entirely new way of doing things, it would be more of an extension of things. He’s not looking to learn a Chinese internal form to mesh it with what he knows; he’s looking to expand the syllabus in a sense. Kind of along the lines of a Tang Soo Do practitioner looking to learn a Shotokan kata that’s not taught in TSD.

Sure, it’s not ideal to learn a kata from a video or a book. Sure, it’s best to improve what he already knows. But sometimes learning something new is fun. Sometimes learning something similar yet different helps gives a fresh perspective on what you already know.

The version of Yantsu kata I’ve learned as taught in my organization is different than the version it came from. Not night and day different, but easily recognizably different. Learning the other version of it would be interesting to me, and might help me make more sense of it in the long run.

For reference...
Yantsu practiced as I learned it...

Ansan (alternate pronunciation of Yantsu) as it’s done in Shito Ryu...

The first video is done to a count while the second isn’t. When done without a count, both versions are a lot closer in timing/flow than they appear in the videos.

Yeah that's it, it would be a great practice in order to extend my understanding and perspective. Along with it being exciting to learn something new that keeps one engaged and interrested. Of course not optimal learning just from descriptions and videos, but as a training tool rather than getting this kata absolutely 100% perfect.

One more thing...

The kata @_Simon_ is contemplating learning isn’t much of a departure from his Kyokushin background. From what I see, there’s more open hand strikes and techniques than the various typical Kyokushin kata, there’s more emphasis on hip movement (especially in the beginning), and more turns than the norm, but if I didn’t know better and I watched someone in a Kyokushin uniform doing Kururunfa along with the kata that are actually in the syllabus, I’d easily assume it was part of the syllabus as it fits in relatively well. It definitely wouldn’t raise any red flags. Here’s the kata, for reference...

That's how it makes sense to me, as it isn't really much of a departure. Going to learn a completely different type of form from a different style altogether would interesting hehe.

 

[_Simon_]

Good points and yes there is a continuum on which this issue can lie. However, I will never encourage someone to learn from a video. I just do not believe in it.

Absolutely, and that's totally fair enough. Same here, I think it lacks something important to learn just from videos. I guess I see it in a way that whatever my instructor has instilled within me still comes out to guide me while I train, and it's like that knowledge kicks in to help guide the process. Sounds a bit airy fairy haha, but moreso like the experience can guide one in learning, and you sort of learn to trust yourself more.

The principles are instilled in me, and there are times when I feel like I can trust those. Sort of like in sparring, sometimes you just have to go out and spar to learn some things, and no matter what sort of instruction you get, certain things just can't be taught unless through experience. There's a certain trust that can be tapped into. And of course I say this as a generality and not absolute. You really do need guidance and a foundation. I do think it seems more of a grey issue rather than black and white.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well a word of caution at least: don’t fall into the trap of acquiring more material than you have time to practice in a reasonable and realistic way.

I’ve done that, and training can become a burden and you can burn out from it. When I became focused and threw away all the extra stuff I had acquired, it was like a weight was lifted from my shoulders.

Sometimes you just do not need all that additional stuff. But I guess we all need to follow our own path to that realization.

 

[_Simon_]

Well a word of caution at least: don’t fall into the trap of acquiring more material than you have time to practice in a reasonable and realistic way.

I’ve done that, and training can become a burden and you can burn out from it. When I became focused and threw away all the extra stuff I had acquired, it was like a weight was lifted from my shoulders.

Sometimes you just do not need all that additional stuff. But I guess we all need to follow our own path to that realization.

Appreciate that Flying Crane, and something I will remember for sure. Yeah I'm done with trying to do too much and burning out, this seems definitely born from a real willingness to learn. Great point and much respected

 

[JR 137]

Well a word of caution at least: don’t fall into the trap of acquiring more material than you have time to practice in a reasonable and realistic way.

I’ve done that, and training can become a burden and you can burn out from it. When I became focused and threw away all the extra stuff I had acquired, it was like a weight was lifted from my shoulders.

Sometimes you just do not need all that additional stuff. But I guess we all need to follow our own path to that realization.

I’m pretty sure we’re a lot closer to each other’s thinking in reality than can be conveyed on a forum. I agree with everything you’re saying in principle. I have the same feelings, but I’m just offering exceptions to my rules due to the OP’s specific circumstances.

One other circumstance to keep in mind is that the OP isn’t training at a dojo at the moment. Or if he is, he is in the trial period and hasn’t made a commitment to the system yet. When he does, all bets are off IMO and diligently train what you’re taught IMO.

Being “in between” systems gives some time to explore things you’d personally like to explore. If it’s something similar to what he’s been taught, have fun with it. There’s plenty of time to get serious when you’ve committed to learning a specific curriculum/system.

Had his situation been different, I’d be far more hesitant to voice what I’ve said here.

While I’d love to learn the alternative form of the kata I linked to earlier, I’ve got far higher priorities. I’m testing for 2nd kyu in two weeks. There’s several things I could easily improve on far more of I used the time working on them instead of learning a an alternative way of doing a kata I already know. After that test and pretty much every subsequent test, I’ll feel the same way. I highly doubt I’ll be bored enough or good enough with my required material to feel like teaching myself something outside my system is the best use of my free time. Cross-training under an actual teacher at the appropriate time is a different matter though.

 

[jks9199]

I think there are 2 different issues, and various posters have hit on both of them.

The first is "looking ahead" in your own (or closely related) systems, working on material that's from a bit deeper into the curriculum than you're working on. This has good and bad parts. Sometimes, jumping ahead can help you understand material you're working on now; it may illuminate a principle or technique that you might have been having trouble with. I've often found, for example, that working the long stick helps students understand how both their hands work together -- even if that student isn't really quite at the stage to introduce the weapon. And it can give a frustrated student a glimpse of "bigger things to come..." But that's also the first problem... it can frustrate a student who really can't do the techniques because they haven't trained long enough to have the coordination or fundamentals integrated into their bodies to do the form. Another risk is that a student may pick up the advanced form well, and get distracted or focus too much on it too soon in their training... leading them to neglect important earlier pieces.

The other issue is looking outside your system, learning form from other styles. Honestly, if it's done for fun and to get a taste of something different -- I don't see any major downsides, assuming you don't get hurt or get too caught up in the "new" thing. Say a karate student decided to pick up a few djurus (I hope I spelled that right) from some form of silat... Cool, they're getting a taste and learning some pieces that might even be useful. But learning them from videos or posters (maybe I'm dating myself...) means you may well miss some crucial pieces or transitional elements... so there's a frustration problem that might crop up again. And you still have the concern of focusing too much on the wrong stuff...

 

[_Simon_]

I think there are 2 different issues, and various posters have hit on both of them.

The first is "looking ahead" in your own (or closely related) systems, working on material that's from a bit deeper into the curriculum than you're working on. This has good and bad parts. Sometimes, jumping ahead can help you understand material you're working on now; it may illuminate a principle or technique that you might have been having trouble with. I've often found, for example, that working the long stick helps students understand how both their hands work together -- even if that student isn't really quite at the stage to introduce the weapon. And it can give a frustrated student a glimpse of "bigger things to come..." But that's also the first problem... it can frustrate a student who really can't do the techniques because they haven't trained long enough to have the coordination or fundamentals integrated into their bodies to do the form. Another risk is that a student may pick up the advanced form well, and get distracted or focus too much on it too soon in their training... leading them to neglect important earlier pieces.

The other issue is looking outside your system, learning form from other styles. Honestly, if it's done for fun and to get a taste of something different -- I don't see any major downsides, assuming you don't get hurt or get too caught up in the "new" thing. Say a karate student decided to pick up a few djurus (I hope I spelled that right) from some form of silat... Cool, they're getting a taste and learning some pieces that might even be useful. But learning them from videos or posters (maybe I'm dating myself...) means you may well miss some crucial pieces or transitional elements... so there's a frustration problem that might crop up again. And you still have the concern of focusing too much on the wrong stuff...

Thanks jks9199, that's exactly it, and a really good summary . I'll certainly be smart about it regardless (well aim to)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not specific to karate, but to all folk I reckon .

I was wondering what you guys thought of wanting to learn higher level forms/kata whilst at a lower level. Whether it's a good idea? A very bad idea?

I can see both sides I guess...

Pros: expand your learning, understanding, motivation and enthusiasm for training.

Cons: potentially teach yourself bad habits and inefficient movement patterns, learning advanced concepts that need prior training and development in lower grade kata, can develop a 'jack of all trades and master of none' mindset etc..


There are alot of kata that I am just so drawn to when I watch them; ones I really want to learn. For example today I worked on Yantsu (which is around where I'm at), but also looked at trying some moves and sequences from Kururunfa, a kata usually learned around 2nd or 3rd Dan in Goju Ryu (which I am definitely not at hehe).

I don't think this is a case of 'greedy student with no patience wanting to learn everything now now now', but a genuine curiosity and willingness to learn. Of course, it would be very difficult as I'm not officially training at a single dojo (still exploring), but in the meantime in any home sessions I do, I'd still like to expand my training.

And even with the possibility of certain kata not being in the future style I commit to, I wonder if there is this possibility of still learning new forms properly without that guidance from an instructor the dojo.. it does take quite a degree of proficiency and mastery to teach these things yourself. Videotaping can help, as well as breaking down every little section of the kata, practicing stance transitions etc and getting the feel of it in a real back-to-basics sense.

Part of me say... "forgot about it, go nuts!", and parts says... "maybe leave that until later when you've got more of a foundation, and work on lower/current/slightly higher level kata".


It's more of a general question here rather than pertaining to my particular situation (pretty sure I will continue to train them ).

Is it a beneficial or detrimental thing to train in much higher level forms?


Interested to hear your thoughts

I can only really speak to my forms. As long as someone has already actually learned (not mastered, just learned) the forms preceding it, I'm okay with them learning forms ahead of their rank...as long as they'll get enough practice on the ones that matter for what we're working on now. I've never had a student who wanted to put in the time to learn ahead in forms. Most don't practice their forms much outside class, so they aren't ready for the new form until they get near the next rank, anyway.

To put that in context, my forms are different in how they work together. There's one pattern of movement - based on the Classical techniques in the Classical kata. All other kata are based on that movement, and substitute different techniques (single stick, double stick, staff) in place of the Classicals. So learning a new form is actually pretty easy. The interference would be someone wanting to learn the double-stick kata while they're still learning the single-stick. They are similar enough that would definitely confuse their learning.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Firstly, thank you all for your very thoughtful responses, they were really quite helpful! And they definitely put things into perspective



I see what you're saying and it does make sense. I can assure you that this isn't 'shiny new ball' syndrome hehe. It's a real curiosity and drive to learn these forms for their own sake, not to look cool, learn only new things etc. But I do see what you're saying for sure. I can't see that it would be a waste of time at all though... It would only be a waste if I just dabbled in it, copied the movements, didn't study and analyse it, and if it didn't help me learn better technique, stances, and become a better martial artist.

I think if done in a mature way it can be beneficial, but I will take on board everything you've said. And that's true, without an instructor or guidance it can definitely be detrimental..

As I was reading other posts (something I didn't do before replying - no sense sullying my mind with new information!), I had another thought that fits something you mention here.

We all have our own motivations. And those matter. Some people are driven by new learning - an intellectual curiosity, if you will (Spranger/Allport's "theoretical" motivator). This doesn't always make sense to folks who don't share this motivation. Sometimes you just want to learn something, because you want to learn it. It's not because it's a new and shiny object to possess (metaphorically, of course). It's not because it's beyond your rank or station. It's because...new learning! That sounds like it might be what's going on here. Something I've learned about "high theoreticals" is that they also incorporate learning more widely than other folks. So, it's entirely possible you'll find intellectual benefit in this.

From a MA standpoint, it will probably cause some (minor?) confusion along the way for you and might make learning some forms (and correcting those you learned early) more difficult. On the whole, though, it's unlikely to be a real problem.

So, if that first paragraph seems to describe your motivation here, I'd say go for it. It's not the most effective nor efficient way to learn them, but it might be a good use of your internal motivation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good points and yes there is a continuum on which this issue can lie. However, I will never encourage someone to learn from a video. I just do not believe in it.

My thought is that it depends what they intend to do with it. I might try to learn a kata from a video, knowing I'll never get it "right". So, I wouldn't try to get it their way. I'd apply principles I already know and understand to each movement, essentially making a Gerry-fu form of the kata, using the closest possible motions to the kata in question. There can be a lot of good learning in that pursuit, since the kata is really only providing a set of movements to work on existing principles.

 

[_Simon_]

As I was reading other posts (something I didn't do before replying - no sense sullying my mind with new information!), I had another thought that fits something you mention here.

We all have our own motivations. And those matter. Some people are driven by new learning - an intellectual curiosity, if you will (Spranger/Allport's "theoretical" motivator). This doesn't always make sense to folks who don't share this motivation. Sometimes you just want to learn something, because you want to learn it. It's not because it's a new and shiny object to possess (metaphorically, of course). It's not because it's beyond your rank or station. It's because...new learning! That sounds like it might be what's going on here. Something I've learned about "high theoreticals" is that they also incorporate learning more widely than other folks. So, it's entirely possible you'll find intellectual benefit in this.

From a MA standpoint, it will probably cause some (minor?) confusion along the way for you and might make learning some forms (and correcting those you learned early) more difficult. On the whole, though, it's unlikely to be a real problem.

So, if that first paragraph seems to describe your motivation here, I'd say go for it. It's not the most effective nor efficient way to learn them, but it might be a good use of your internal motivation.

Yep, bang on! Haha that's exactly it, thanks for that Gerry .

I definitely have that, it's such a drive to want to learn it, and it's a big motivational thing. And because I legitimately want to learn it, I think it will make learning it that much more effective (willingness being key). That being said I think it can definitely get confusing if the enthusiasiam isn't kept a bit under wraps and not let loose, that would result in just moving from thing to thing and trying to assimilate too much all at once!

But that's great to see that's what it is . And like you say in your next post it may be a matter of incorporating movements and principles I'm comfortable with in order to better learn and understand it.

 

[Flying Crane]

My thought is that it depends what they intend to do with it. I might try to learn a kata from a video, knowing I'll never get it "right". So, I wouldn't try to get it their way. I'd apply principles I already know and understand to each movement, essentially making a Gerry-fu form of the kata, using the closest possible motions to the kata in question. There can be a lot of good learning in that pursuit, since the kata is really only providing a set of movements to work on existing principles.

in that case, honestly, I think you would be better off just creating your own, from your own material.

I know your current system does not contain kata in the sense we are discussing here. Have you trained in a system in the past, that used kata as a training method? If you simply have zero experience with it then I can understand why you might think of this as realistic. It just isn’t. To use it that way assumes the absolute lowest movement mimicry. Legitimate kata have subtlety in the movement that just would be meaningless as simple movement mimicry. I cannot see a benefit to it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

in that case, honestly, I think you would be better off just creating your own, from your own material.

I know your current system does not contain kata in the sense we are discussing here. Have you trained in a system in the past, that used kata as a training method? If you simply have zero experience with it then I can understand why you might think of this as realistic. It just isn’t. To use it that way assumes the absolute lowest movement mimicry. Legitimate kata have subtlety in the movement that just would be meaningless as simple movement mimicry. I cannot see a benefit to it.

In a way, that's what I'd be doing. I'm just short-cutting the process by using a video that exists. I might choose it because I like the way it looks, or because I think the movements would be a good challenge, or because it simply looks like stuff that fits really easily in NGA. Where I get the pattern from (my head or a video) isn't as important as how I work on it and what principles I apply.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

in that case, honestly, I think you would be better off just creating your own, from your own material.

I know your current system does not contain kata in the sense we are discussing here. Have you trained in a system in the past, that used kata as a training method? If you simply have zero experience with it then I can understand why you might think of this as realistic. It just isn’t. To use it that way assumes the absolute lowest movement mimicry. Legitimate kata have subtlety in the movement that just would be meaningless as simple movement mimicry. I cannot see a benefit to it.

I forgot to reply to the second sentence.

I had only passing exposure to traditional forms along the way. I created a set of forms for my curriculum. I've actually done the thing I mention (using NGA principles to "recreate" a kata). I agree that the only use of the kata, itself, is movement mimicry. That's kind of my point. I don't think it's necessary to try to recreate the original intent and subtleties - I'm able to apply principles I know that work with those movements and transitions and introduce subtleties myself. I don't need to (in this exercise) learn new principles from the kata - I'm using the kata to explore the principles I already know. I think that's much of what kata are meant for (to explore the principles). I'm just using the kata to explore a different art.

Is that a misuse of the kata? Against its original intent, possibly. For that user? Not at all.

 

[Reedone816]

Great discussion, as someone who had learned a style with kata-esque and now learning in style with less kata, i just feel that the most important thing is understanding, without it, it just merely a fitness exercise.
It is very important to know the correct form in accordance of our build and condition, and for that we need instructor guidance.

Sent from my BV8000Pro using Tapatalk

 

[Flying Crane]

In a way, that's what I'd be doing. I'm just short-cutting the process by using a video that exists. I might choose it because I like the way it looks, or because I think the movements would be a good challenge, or because it simply looks like stuff that fits really easily in NGA. Where I get the pattern from (my head or a video) isn't as important as how I work on it and what principles I apply.

See, I don’t think you are shortcutting the process. You would be taking what is, to you, obscure movement and trying to assign meaning to it based on a different set of education and skills. Based on your statement of what you might do with it, I can’t see how simply developing your own kata, with your own material, would not be a better approach.

Of course some of the movement in a kata can be reasonably straight forward, but other stuff is pretty un-obvious if you don’t have the proper instruction for it.

And I still hold that understanding the fundamentals upon which the kata is built, is critical in getting benefit from the practice. That is another thing you would likely be missing.

 

[JR 137]

I don’t know why I forgot about this... I’ve been meaning to learn a kata from video for quite some time now, but never got around to it. The “Quart of Blood Technique.”

I want to be able to make a quart of blood drop out of someone’s body after hitting him with all of that. I’m sure I’m not the only one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

See, I don’t think you are shortcutting the process. You would be taking what is, to you, obscure movement and trying to assign meaning to it based on a different set of education and skills. Based on your statement of what you might do with it, I can’t see how simply developing your own kata, with your own material, would not be a better approach.

Of course some of the movement in a kata can be reasonably straight forward, but other stuff is pretty un-obvious if you don’t have the proper instruction for it.

And I still hold that understanding the fundamentals upon which the kata is built, is critical in getting benefit from the practice. That is another thing you would likely be missing.

Well, if I look at a kata that (as viewed) appears to be mostly about strikes (say, from Shotokan Karate, since their strikes are very close to NGA). Now I can replicate those movements using the closest NGA movements. I don't have to come up with a string of movements to work with - someone else already has. Mind you, the information I'm using if I do that isn't much different than if you suggested I use "straight punch, pivot left to low block, front kick, pivot and step right to high cross block..." It's a superficial read either way. So, why use an existing list? Because I'm almost certain to run into a transition I don't like and wouldn't have thought to put in. A different challenge than stringing together bits I consciously choose to work on (either because I like them or because I suck at them).

This is actually not difficult to do (it is actually a shortcut). It's what I did when developing the single-stick, double-stick, and staff kata I use. I took the movement pattern from my Classical kata and simply fit new techniques to the same movements, as closely as possible.