Leading senior citizens to the "Dark Side" - Right or wrong?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Would you be able to generate more power with 1 less punch in the sequence, thereby giving you more room to breath?

Among those 8 moves, there are 3 strikes and 5 setups.

1. Your right palm strike on your opponent's right leading arm.
2. Your left palm strike on his right elbow (free your right arm).
3. Your right hand strike (1st strike) on the right side of your opponent's head (switch hands).

4. Your opponent's left arm blocks your right strike. You use left hand to grab-pull his left wrist.
5. You then right palm strike (2nd strike) to the left side of his head (block-strike).

6. Your opponent uses right arm to block your right palm strike. You use right hand to pull his right arm toward you.
7. You use left hand to take over (free your right arm).
8. Your right hand strike (3rd strike) on his face (another switch hands).

None of these step up can be removed. Of course if you can knock down your opponent by your 1st strike, you won't need your 2nd strike, and 3rd strike.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It's not because I was always trained that way. Here's why I think this.

1. I can throw multiple strikes in one exhale.
2. I can inhale in between strikes.
3. I can inhale as quickly as I exhale. Do a short exhale burst with a quick jab and your next natural reflex is a short inhale that happens just as quick.
4. I can turn my one exhale into short bursts. So I'm not fully exhaling.
5. I'm not standing in one place. I'm using body movement and footwork so I can inhale in between moving my feet. Let off a 3 piece, 4 piece, or 5 piece combo and inhale while you recover from defense.
6. My opponent isn't always engaging me 100% of the time with attacks. Unless he or she can defeat me within a few seconds withing a burst of strikes. Trying to sustain a long combo or attack will wear a person out. It's the concept behind "Rope a dope." Part of my training is to do continuous attacking for a minute. So I'm familiar with this on a personal level.
7. My defense and footwork should have the effect of making it difficult to reach me for more than a few seconds. I should be a moving target and not a punching bag.
8. Unless a person is gulping for air then trying to catch them breathing is going to be near impossible simply because breathing motion can be hidden inside regular motion.
9. After I get a good strike on that person, the last thing they will be looking at is my breathing (unless I have bad cardio).
10. I can inhale faster than my opponent can strike me

This is just a few things that I can think off the top of my head and with the exception of timing bad cardio, the intentionally hitting someone while they inhale will almost be impossible to do. All it takes is for me to punch a person hard in their face, kick them in their ribs, or sweep them and I'll guarantee that person won't be thinking about my breathing.

Even at this speed. Once can see how difficult it would be to try to intentionally hit someone while they are inhaling.

With all of this said:
Q: Can a person time a strike to land when their opponent inhales?
A: Yes. When breathing becomes a tell. Then it's most likely that this will occur. If an opponent takes a noticeable inhale right before they strike. Then that person will most likely get hit on the inhale. If the breathing is calm then I don't think anyone is going to pick up while punches and kicks occur.

Look a fighters and practitioners of all skill levels and you rarely see anyone purposely trying to hit someone while they inhale. In terms of striking vs grappling. Grapplers are probably more sensitive to their opponents breathing, even when they have great cardio. For me personally. I'm more cautious of my breathing with grapplers than strikes as they have more opportunity to take advantage of it.

People often do show the breath when tired or excited. People often visibly breathe from the upper chest during confrontation. Many people move from this breath, blowing out air from the mouth. This can be exploited. It isn’t about speed, it is about listening and timing. Im sure you strike off of the opponents strike, this is similar in concept. if I feel you better than you feel you, I have some advantage.

 

[dvcochran]

People often do show the breath when tired or excited. People often visibly breathe from the upper chest during confrontation. Many people move from this breath, blowing out air from the mouth. This can be exploited. It isn’t about speed, it is about listening and timing. Im sure you strike off of the opponents strike, this is similar in concept. if I feel you better than you feel you, I have some advantage.

It's not because I was always trained that way. Here's why I think this.

1. I can throw multiple strikes in one exhale.
2. I can inhale in between strikes.
3. I can inhale as quickly as I exhale. Do a short exhale burst with a quick jab and your next natural reflex is a short inhale that happens just as quick.
4. I can turn my one exhale into short bursts. So I'm not fully exhaling.
5. I'm not standing in one place. I'm using body movement and footwork so I can inhale in between moving my feet. Let off a 3 piece, 4 piece, or 5 piece combo and inhale while you recover from defense.
6. My opponent isn't always engaging me 100% of the time with attacks. Unless he or she can defeat me within a few seconds withing a burst of strikes. Trying to sustain a long combo or attack will wear a person out. It's the concept behind "Rope a dope." Part of my training is to do continuous attacking for a minute. So I'm familiar with this on a personal level.
7. My defense and footwork should have the effect of making it difficult to reach me for more than a few seconds. I should be a moving target and not a punching bag.
8. Unless a person is gulping for air then trying to catch them breathing is going to be near impossible simply because breathing motion can be hidden inside regular motion.
9. After I get a good strike on that person, the last thing they will be looking at is my breathing (unless I have bad cardio).
10. I can inhale faster than my opponent can strike me

This is just a few things that I can think off the top of my head and with the exception of timing bad cardio, the intentionally hitting someone while they inhale will almost be impossible to do. All it takes is for me to punch a person hard in their face, kick them in their ribs, or sweep them and I'll guarantee that person won't be thinking about my breathing.

Even at this speed. Once can see how difficult it would be to try to intentionally hit someone while they are inhaling.

With all of this said:
Q: Can a person time a strike to land when their opponent inhales?
A: Yes. When breathing becomes a tell. Then it's most likely that this will occur. If an opponent takes a noticeable inhale right before they strike. Then that person will most likely get hit on the inhale. If the breathing is calm then I don't think anyone is going to pick up while punches and kicks occur.

Look a fighters and practitioners of all skill levels and you rarely see anyone purposely trying to hit someone while they inhale. In terms of striking vs grappling. Grapplers are probably more sensitive to their opponents breathing, even when they have great cardio. For me personally. I'm more cautious of my breathing with grapplers than strikes as they have more opportunity to take advantage of it.

I did my first workout after having the Flu (Covid?) last night. I was surprised how much wind I had lost so I was happy to be doing breathing of any kind.

Seriously though, we also practice breathing drills in regards to offensive movement and defensive (taking a hit) movement.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Among those 8 moves, there are 3 strikes and 5 setups.

1. Your right palm strike on your opponent's right leading arm.
2. Your left palm strike on his right elbow (free your right arm).
3. Your right hand strike (1st strike) on the right side of your opponent's head (switch hands).

4. Your opponent's left arm blocks your right strike. You use left hand to grab-pull his left wrist.
5. You then right palm strike (2nd strike) to the left side of his head (block-strike).

6. Your opponent uses right arm to block your right palm strike. You use right hand to pull his right arm toward you.
7. You use left hand to take over (free your right arm).
8. Your right hand strike (3rd strike) on his face (another switch hands).

None of these step up can be removed. Of course if you can knock down your opponent by your 1st strike, you won't need your 2nd strike, and 3rd strike.

That is not an answer though, and I am not asking about the sequence, I'm asking about the number of strikes in the time allotted.

Knowing the situation can require different responses, meaning more or less strikes may be required, I guess my question is, would it be better to train for multiple fast strikes with less power or fewer strikes with more power. When I see things like the Wing Chun chain punch, although it has its place and it can be powerful, a single Xingyi Bengquan strike I feel is more powerful. Both have there place and reasons for use. But, as you said, throwing a right hook, left hook, right uppercut, left uppercut within 1 second, although fast, I feel it loses in power over say throwing a right hook, left hook, right uppercut, within 1 second. Speed is impressive and can be effective, but I feel, in general, it lacks power.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That is not an answer though, and I am not asking about the sequence, I'm asking about the number of strikes in the time allotted.

Knowing the situation can require different responses, meaning more or less strikes may be required, I guess my question is, would it be better to train for multiple fast strikes with less power or fewer strikes with more power. When I see things like the Wing Chun chain punch, although it has its place and it can be powerful, a single Xingyi Bengquan strike I feel is more powerful. Both have there place and reasons for use. But, as you said, throwing a right hook, left hook, right uppercut, left uppercut within 1 second, although fast, I feel it loses in power over say throwing a right hook, left hook, right uppercut, within 1 second. Speed is impressive and can be effective, but I feel, in general, it lacks power.

I trained a drill where I did something similar. Students could do the combo fast but it was awkward. I wouldn't use the punch combo in a figh. Our combo left too much open. I guess it was an exercise for power generation and not a fighting sequence.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That is not an answer though, and I am not asking about the sequence, I'm asking about the number of strikes in the time allotted.

Knowing the situation can require different responses, meaning more or less strikes may be required, I guess my question is, would it be better to train for multiple fast strikes with less power or fewer strikes with more power. When I see things like the Wing Chun chain punch, although it has its place and it can be powerful, a single Xingyi Bengquan strike I feel is more powerful. Both have there place and reasons for use. But, as you said, throwing a right hook, left hook, right uppercut, left uppercut within 1 second, although fast, I feel it loses in power over say throwing a right hook, left hook, right uppercut, within 1 second. Speed is impressive and can be effective, but I feel, in general, it lacks power.

I often find that in a combo I start with fast, lesser power strikes to get the opponent to move and finish the combo with a higher power strike. I don’t think it means much because i never know ahead of time what I’m going to do. I like to get people to move and then I move off of their movement. It feels more natural for me. I almost always start out this way because it gives me a chance to feel them and catch their rhythm and find where they lack balance or structure, or have an injury or physical limitation(everybody does).

 

[Oily Dragon]

Thank you and precisely. Would you say few teachers of taiji understand it as taijiquan?

Teachers of Taiji?

Who really needs one.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I trained a drill where I did something similar. Students could do the combo fast but it was awkward. I wouldn't use the punch combo in a figh. Our combo left too much open. I guess it was an exercise for power generation and not a fighting sequence.

Used what I was talking about in sparring too

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Speed is impressive and can be effective, but I feel, in general, it lacks power.

To use speed to force your opponent to give up is more civilized than to use power to knock him down.

The praying mantis master Brendan Lai told me that one day a challenger came to his school and challenged him. Brendan said, "I'll throw just 1 punch, if you can block my punch, you win, otherwise, you lose." When Brendan punched at his opponent's face, his opponent could not block it. Brendan then said, "Next punch I will blind you." The challenger left. The challenge fight ended peacefully, Nobody got hurt.

IMO, The fast speed may not have enough knock down power, but it can help you to obtain a clinch in a fist flying situation.

Both machine gun and grenade have place in the battle field. The praying mantis system emphasizes speed. The Baji system emphasizes power. Su Yu-Chang created his "Baji praying mantis" system so he can have both.

When you throw multiple punches in fast speed, you are not using your body to the maximum (body method). Of course you can't generate maximum power. When you try to knock your opponent down with one punch, if he moves back, you will punch into the thin air.

MA is all about "trade off". If there is a perfect system, everybody will learn that system and there won't be any place for other MA systems.

This is why I believe one should train:

- 1 step 3 punches (for speed).
- 2 steps 3 punches (compromise between speed and power).
- 3 steps 3 punches (for power).

 

[Steve]

Speed is impressive and can be effective, but I feel, in general, it lacks power.

Not if you're punching on the exhale.

Just kidding. I'm really enjoying this thread and the other one on secrecy in kung fu, and the topics are similar. Couldn't resist this easy call back.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not if you're punching on the exhale.

Just kidding. I'm really enjoying this thread and the other one on secrecy in kung fu, and the topics are similar. Couldn't resist this easy call back.

You're cruzin' for a shunnin' fella

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Not if you're punching on the exhale.

Just kidding. I'm really enjoying this thread and the other one on secrecy in kung fu, and the topics are similar. Couldn't resist this easy call back.

Lol!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You're cruzin' for a shunnin' fella

Love that movie. The one that has jack nicholson?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Not if you're punching on the exhale.

Don't forget the toes. Toe placement is crucial otherwise the Qi can't flow properly from the earth to your fist..

 

[Ebrahim]

Hi Bill,
There is no actual dark side in martial arts. There will always be a perfect balance.
As a student and teacher I prefer to show both right from the offset in order to maintain a good balance in the curiosity of my students. If one only teaches the one aspect the curiosity about the other will be amplified and vice versa. so my advice to you is that you maintain balance in what you teach. you will find that your students will grow at a rate that far exceeds your expectations.
In short I do not see any wrong in what you are doing.
So,, It is as difficult to sleep in the day as it is to see at night unless there are elements of the opposite present that will ease things.

 

[geezer]

I did my first workout after having the Flu (Covid?) last night. I was surprised how much wind I had lost so I was happy to be doing breathing of any kind.

Seriously though, we also practice breathing drills in regards to offensive movement and defensive (taking a hit) movement.

Glad you're on the upswing!

BTW if there is any doubt that you might have had COVID I'm surprised you didn't get tested. It would be useful to know, not only for the sake of those you have been in contact with, but also for knowing whether you not you might have acquired some natural resistance in addition to any vaccines you may have had.

Oh, and also for the bragging rights.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The "dark side" of Taiji is to use the invisible energy to make a guy jump backward.

 

[dvcochran]

Glad you're on the upswing!

BTW if there is any doubt that you might have had COVID I'm surprised you didn't get tested. It would be useful to know, not only for the sake of those you have been in contact with, but also for knowing whether you not you might have acquired some natural resistance in addition to any vaccines you may have had.

Oh, and also for the bragging rights.

My wife and I both got tested for Covid, Flu, and Strep at the same time. That little Flu test thingy hurt like the dickens!!! Came back positive for Covid. However, I had very few of the classic Covid symptoms (which generally overlap). No fever or chills, no loss of taste/smell. Just felt cruddy and tired for 4-5 days so it does make me wonder. I have had the Flu in years past that was Way rougher on me.
We are pretty certain where we got it (church), even to the point of knowing the initial carrier, so I fully believe this thing is highly transmissible. I also fully believe you either have had it (may not have even known it), have it, or will get it. Mother nature is a self-righting ship.

I did not work out for about two weeks. Much of this was because of playing catchup at work. But some of it was simply because I am getting older and just don't bounce back as quick as I used to. I am not about to blame it all on Covid.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The "dark side" of Taiji is to use the invisible energy to make a guy jump backward.

The dark, dark side is the 94 likes, and 0 dislikes of that video, before we even start translating the comments, the first of which was enough to sum the rest up. "This is the real inner fist master, not many know this", basically.

You and I see that video and are dumbfounded by its stupidity, but for some reason Youtube claims everyone loves this video. It's just like the Lizard Illuminati.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The dark, dark side is the 94 likes, and 0 dislikes of that video, before we even start translating the comments, the first of which was enough to sum the rest up. "This is the real inner fist master, not many know this", basically.

You and I see that video and are dumbfounded by its stupidity, but for some reason Youtube claims everyone loves this video. It's just like the Lizard Illuminati.

Man you are so right on target here! Qanon and fa Jing and lizard people believers make me want to start my own cult of verifiable truths. Wait, that won’t make money though.