The truth on Self-Defense and TaijiQuan / Tai Chi Chuan

[Wing Woo Gar]

You didn’t sound rude at all. I’m interested in what you’re describing.

To send a private message, click on my name where it shows beside my post, then select the “start conversation” option.

Check out what Jow Ga wolf wrote. He is doing it too and likely has a better way to describe it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It depends on who is doing the punch. For me we used our waist because we follow the concept that both arms are used to send one punch. For example. To send a right punch. The left arm should pull to help power the punch.

Another drill that I use is to focus only on the pulling and not the punching. The faster I pull my left arm back by twisting my waist, the faster my right arm goes out. The first time a person does the exercise, he/she will discover that the waist has completed the twist before the punch has started. This is often due to the lack of connection between the two sides of the body.

In application, I have the option to use that twisting motion to redirect an incoming punch or kick. I can also grab my opponent's arm and pull him into my punch. It is impossible to pull my opponent into my punch unless I twist my waist. If I only twist my hip then there is no pull. The pulling of one arm can power the punch of the other.

View attachment 29478

Is it always like this? Of course not. Sometimes there's no need to pull that left side too far back. Most of the time the twist is short and powerful. I think I have some video of me punching the heavy bag using the long fist exercise that you showed.

Yes! This! This is one of our training methods as well.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Check out what Jow Ga wolf wrote. He is doing it too and likely has a better way to describe it.

Okay, based on his response and the video he shared, I do use that kind of waist rotation. But as I said, I use it in conjunction with hip rotation, not in place of it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Okay, based on his response and the video he shared, I do use that kind of waist rotation. But as I said, I use it in conjunction with hip rotation, not in place of it.

We want to be able to do both or combine. It’s really more about training options into the body with isolations. In certain applications one works where the other doesn’t.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Okay, based on his response and the video he shared, I do use that kind of waist rotation. But as I said, I use it in conjunction with hip rotation, not in place of it.

I meant to make a video last night of my students, but I got going teaching and forgot. I will absolutely get it done since you were so gracious in supplying that video you made. You say there are more competent people making videos but I would prefer your style of commentary and teaching to any other videos I have seen on the topic. Please make more on any topic you like. I am a rank beginner at BJJ so anything is new and useful to me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Our foundational training in White Crane has similarities to this. ... Some things should not be mixed.

Even when I was just a beginner, when I did punch like this (with T-shirt), I could hear the wind and sound came from each and every of my punches.

When I started my University of Texas at Austin Kung Fu information class, I invited a WC instructor to teach the 1st hour of my class (I was very interested WC myself). I then taught the 2nd hour of the class. After 1 month, all students complained that they all got confused big time. I then had to end the WC training part.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sit in a deep working horse, shoot reverse punches but hold legs and hip still and lift up the insides and shoot the punch off the back as the waist turns. I know you have seen this somewhere right?

Are you saying that you start your punch from a horse stance and also end your punch with a horse stance?

To hold a belt while punch is a good training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Okay, based on his response and the video he shared, I do use that kind of waist rotation. But as I said, I use it in conjunction with hip rotation, not in place of it.

You use your hip to "whip" your waist instead of using your waist by engaging your core? hip wiggle vs core twist. For me, my hip is where my belt or pants rest. My waist is higher up. Where my abs are. Torso is upper abs close to my ribs.

If I sit down in a chair with feet flat on the floor with my elbows up an my fists on my chest ( thumbs on chest) I can turn my upper body while keeping my stomach facing forward not engaging my stomach.
twist very far. if I allow my stomach to twist then I'm in the waist region. If I feel the pull on my obliques then that is the waist area. If I feel the pull on my ribs then that is my torso. My hips haven't turned.. I only bring this up because sometimes what's waist for me is hips for some one else. When I use my hips it feels more like a butt shake if I'm a horse stance.

I'll try to create a tennis ball training tool or something that will show when waist is engaged. Maybe a tiny rice bag will work.

For me I'm imagining that I'm spinning things off me when I use my waist to punch. Similar to how a sling and rock is used. When I use my hips it feels more like I'm pushing into or driving the punch in a linear manner. I don't have that circular feel

 

[JowGaWolf]

You use your hip to "whip" your waist instead of using your waist by engaging your core? hip wiggle vs core twist. For me, my hip is where my belt or pants rest. My waist is higher up. Where my abs are. Torso is upper abs close to my ribs.

If I sit down in a chair with feet flat on the floor with my elbows up an my fists on my chest ( thumbs on chest) I can turn my upper body while keeping my stomach facing forward not engaging my stomach.
twist very far. if I allow my stomach to twist then I'm in the waist region. If I feel the pull on my obliques then that is the waist area. If I feel the pull on my ribs then that is my torso. My hips haven't turned.. I only bring this up because sometimes what's waist for me is hips for some one else. When I use my hips it feels more like a butt shake if I'm a horse stance.

I'll try to create a tennis ball training tool or something that will show when waist is engaged. Maybe a tiny rice bag will work.

For me I'm imagining that I'm spinning things off me when I use my waist to punch. Similar to how a sling and rock is used. When I use my hips it feels more like I'm pushing into or driving the punch in a linear manner. I don't have that circular feel

@Tony Dismukes I forgot that I already have a training tool that I use. You only need a staff or broom. I posted the video in the past . This is actually the best way to feel the difference. I'll try not to forget.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

For me, my hip is where my belt or pants rest. My waist is higher up. Where my abs are. Torso is upper abs close to my ribs.

I agree. Same definition I'm using.

You use your hip to "whip" your waist instead of using your waist by engaging your core?

No, they are two separate power sources which I use together (along with other elements) when I want to generate maximum power.

Hip rotation comes from the legs and changes the orientation of the hips relative to the ground. Waist rotation comes from the core and changes the orientation of the upper torso relative to the hips. When you activate both together (assuming you coordinate the timing correctly) the forces add together. Imagine riding a motorcycle 50 mph on top of a train traveling 100 mph the same direction - you end up with a total speed of 150 mph.

For most applications, if I'm going to use the waist rotation, I'm also going to use hip rotation at the same time to get that additive power. There are few exceptions - a handful of throws and sweeps where I need to keep my hips oriented one way while applying force in another.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When I get a chance, I'll try to record a video showing the primary methods of power generation I use for punching. I think there are about 8-10 (depending on how you break them down), although I wouldn't use all of them at the same time.

 

[Flying Crane]

Even when I was just a beginner, when I did punch like this (with T-shirt), I could hear the wind and sound came from each and every of my punches.

When I started my University of Texas at Austin Kung Fu information class, I invited a WC instructor to teach the 1st hour of my class (I was very interested WC myself). I then taught the 2nd hour of the class. After 1 month, all students complained that they all got confused big time. I then had to end the WC training part.

Yeah, I realized I needed to make a choice between the two. It made no sense to try to do them both. I was just collecting things.

 

[Flying Crane]

While it looks similar it's quite different....In TWC

The waist turn is practiced with what we called 45° horse,,practiced in what what is called triangle in and out.

Initially, this is done with hands on the waist as shown, later done using the four basic hands.
practice with triangle in and out,, a basic stepping pattern.

View attachment 29482

Yup, similarity but not the same

 

[JowGaWolf]

I agree. Same definition I'm using.

No, they are two separate power sources which I use together (along with other elements) when I want to generate maximum power.

Hip rotation comes from the legs and changes the orientation of the hips relative to the ground. Waist rotation comes from the core and changes the orientation of the upper torso relative to the hips. When you activate both together (assuming you coordinate the timing correctly) the forces add together. Imagine riding a motorcycle 50 mph on top of a train traveling 100 mph the same direction - you end up with a total speed of 150 mph.

For most applications, if I'm going to use the waist rotation, I'm also going to use hip rotation at the same time to get that additive power. There are few exceptions - a handful of throws and sweeps where I need to keep my hips oriented one way while applying force in another.

Same here for waist rotation with the hips and waist moving together. Some do hips then waist. There are some waist only technique that I can think of but the are close range techniques that use short burst from the waist.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Same here for waist rotation with the hips and waist moving together. Some do hips then waist. There are some waist only technique that I can think of but the are close range techniques that use short burst from the waist.

The external 3 harmony principles said:

- hand coordinate with foot.
- elbow coordnate with knee.
- hip coordinate with shoulder.

You don't hear about:

- waist coordiante with ... .

Why?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Are you saying that you start your punch from a horse stance and also end your punch with a horse stance?

To hold a belt while punch is a good training.

View attachment 29485

Sometimes, yes. In training we always do both and other variations as well.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You use your hip to "whip" your waist instead of using your waist by engaging your core? hip wiggle vs core twist. For me, my hip is where my belt or pants rest. My waist is higher up. Where my abs are. Torso is upper abs close to my ribs.

If I sit down in a chair with feet flat on the floor with my elbows up an my fists on my chest ( thumbs on chest) I can turn my upper body while keeping my stomach facing forward not engaging my stomach.
twist very far. if I allow my stomach to twist then I'm in the waist region. If I feel the pull on my obliques then that is the waist area. If I feel the pull on my ribs then that is my torso. My hips haven't turned.. I only bring this up because sometimes what's waist for me is hips for some one else. When I use my hips it feels more like a butt shake if I'm a horse stance.

I'll try to create a tennis ball training tool or something that will show when waist is engaged. Maybe a tiny rice bag will work.

For me I'm imagining that I'm spinning things off me when I use my waist to punch. Similar to how a sling and rock is used. When I use my hips it feels more like I'm pushing into or driving the punch in a linear manner. I don't have that circular feel

Very similar here

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I agree. Same definition I'm using.

No, they are two separate power sources which I use together (along with other elements) when I want to generate maximum power.

Hip rotation comes from the legs and changes the orientation of the hips relative to the ground. Waist rotation comes from the core and changes the orientation of the upper torso relative to the hips. When you activate both together (assuming you coordinate the timing correctly) the forces add together. Imagine riding a motorcycle 50 mph on top of a train traveling 100 mph the same direction - you end up with a total speed of 150 mph.

For most applications, if I'm going to use the waist rotation, I'm also going to use hip rotation at the same time to get that additive power. There are few exceptions - a handful of throws and sweeps where I need to keep my hips oriented one way while applying force in another.

Yes, see you do it, it’s just my description that muddied the waters. I should have stayed in school.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

When I get a chance, I'll try to record a video showing the primary methods of power generation I use for punching. I think there are about 8-10 (depending on how you break them down), although I wouldn't use all of them at the same time.

I will love to see it. I will respond with a video.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The external 3 harmony principles said:

- hand coordinate with foot.
- elbow coordnate with knee.
- hip coordinate with shoulder.

You don't hear about:

- waist coordiante with ... .

Why?

Because only one set of waists with no counterpart. Waist coordinates with breath.