Latest TOW, Intellctual Departure

[TheEdge883]

Main Entry: bas·tard·ize
Pronunciation: 'bas-t&r-"dIz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -ized; -iz·ing
1 : to reduce from a higher to a lower state or condition : [size=-1]DEBASE[/size]
2 : to declare or prove to be a bastard
3 : to modify especially by introducing discordant or disparate elements
- bas·tard·i·za·tion /"bas-t&r-d&-'zA-sh&n/ noun

In a word, I'd say YES. And you probably learned alot of other techniques differently as well.




Dark Lord

Now i'm not saying I learned from Ed Parker, but wouldn't you be saying something to the effect that Mr. Parker taught a bastardized version of his own system? Or did he teach everyone to bastardize his system.

I guess I don't understand.

 

[Touch Of Death]

NO, only your ideal, it works for everybody else the way Matt 12 explained it, besides the fact the cocking could just as easily turn into an outward block or strike. Makes you go hmm doesn't it?

Dark Lord

No, your better off doing the outward extended off the hip, you won't be able to make an outward extended work until you have fully anchord your elbow. In short you got tagged. Wasted inches wasted time.
Sean

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

NO, not depending on your school, depending on your head or chief instructor. This is how Kenpo gets distorted and bastardized, and where people feel there are voids to fill because they didn't get the information to begin with. Can we all say NATURE OF THE ATTACK!!!!!!

You know, I learned it as a grab and later as a punch and I gotta say that if the attacker moves with any sort of intent, it can become hard to distinguish between a grab and a punch REAL FAST. Same with triggered Salute. You are essentially deflecting a moving object towards your body in hope of pinning it. Well is it a punch or a push? I tell you one thing, I sure would hate to be in a twist stance and find out that the push was really a punch, a punch that I helped guide to my face by doing the inward parrying motion.

If striking from point of origin and/or striking pre-emptively is a bastardization than Mr. Parker must have been the biggest bastard of us all. Don't you think there is a reason these other techniques exist. Also at what point do your techniques and movements quite working you and you start working the techniques? Movements and techniques are Ideas, not the Gospel. Targets are plentiful if you know what you're looking for.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Now i'm not saying I learned from Ed Parker, but wouldn't you be saying something to the effect that Mr. Parker taught a bastardized version of his own system? Or did he teach everyone to bastardize his system.

No, it was Bill Gates who sold us the crack that addicted us to the internet that turned us all into bastards.

If striking from point of origin and/or striking pre-emptively is a bastardization than Mr. Parker must have been the biggest bastard of us all.

Whoa! I don't even think Will Tracy have ever said anything like that! Hey, maybe I should change my login name to Old Fat Bastard?

 

[TheEdge883]

Whoa! I don't even think Will Tracy have ever said anything like that! Hey, maybe I should change my login name to Old Fat Bastard?

It does have a cool Austin Powersish ring to it

 

[Touch Of Death]

You hammer because it's against a grab.

Guys,
Just for the record I'm not suggesting the ideal of Delayed Sword should be done off the hip, I'm suggesting the ideal is to start with your right hand up, and of course hammering down on the arm.
Sean

 

[kenpo3631]

Kenpo 12,
I agree with you on you methodolgy for why you do the inward block the way that you do it. However, KenpoYahoo & TOD bring up a very valid point. Economy of Motion is an intregal part of the Ed Parker System of Kenpo. Point of Origin should help you determine what type of inward block (thrusting or hammering) you'll use. Following that principle (Point of Origin), it would only be logical to thrust if your hands are at your side. But again, the Art is tailored to the individual, and if you feel more comfortable with a hammering block as you method of execution from the hands down position then by all means go for it. Just make sure that you explain to your students why you're doing it like that so the understand the difference between the thrusting inward & hammering inward blocks.

TOD,
You response to Kenpo 12's Short Form 1 question sparked my interest. Do you do the first block of Short 1 as a thrust? If so why? It is my understanding that the Forms are to teach us principles and rules of motion and that every move has an opposite and a reverse. Do you teach your students at the white belt level to thrust both inward blocks?

 

[jeffkyle]

I understand about the priorities but I really don't see why you wouldn't have time to hammer the block if you are checking the grabbing hand while stepping back. The the step back with the pin on the grabbing hand will cancel your opponents width giving you the time needed.

Excellent Point!!!!

 

[jeffkyle]

No, your better off doing the outward extended off the hip, you won't be able to make an outward extended work until you have fully anchord your elbow. In short you got tagged. Wasted inches wasted time.
Sean

When I **** my hand up to do a hammering inward my elbow IS anchored, and it looks alot like an extended outward block to me. :shrug:

 

[jeffkyle]

Guys,
Just for the record I'm not suggesting the ideal of Delayed Sword should be done off the hip, I'm suggesting the ideal is to start with your right hand up, and of course hammering down on the arm.
Sean

Thanks for the clarification, I for one thought you meant it the other way.
But it was said before, what if you had your hands up when you were grabbed or punched? We don't ALWAYS walk around with our hands down or in our pockets. Several of us use our hands while we are talking for expression. I know when a situation is tense like that for me, my hands are a little higher than usual.

 

[kenpo3631]

Excellent Point!!!!

Yes that is a very good point, if you want to do the technique that way.

The problem I have with that is this:

If you pin the opponents hand to your chest, you must have your hand come from the outside in (left to right). This will put your hand on the outside of you opponents. That can pose a problem when you deliver the strike to the opponents arm, especially if you hit the bend in the elbow instead of the forearm. If you lose the trap OR if your strike is faster than you pinning hand is moving, you can end up with your opponent's hand in your face.

Don't say it can't happen. I've seen it with white belt students more than a dozen times.

Just food for thought. :asian:

 

[jeffkyle]

Yes that is a very good point, if you want to do the technique that way.

The problem I have with that is this:

If you pin the opponents hand to your chest, you must have your hand come from the outside in (left to right). This will put your hand on the outside of you opponents. That can pose a problem when you deliver the strike to the opponents arm, especially if you hit the bend in the elbow instead of the forearm. If you lose the trap OR if your strike is faster than you pinning hand is moving, you can end up with your opponent's hand in your face.

Don't say it can't happen. I've seen it with white belt students more than a dozen times.

Just food for thought. :asian:

I see your point. But it you DO acutally Pin first (i understand how beginners DO get ahead of themselves however) and you step back you will elongate your opponents arm, taking away his depth and width, allowing you to attack as you see fit. Either hammer the bicep OR even possibly the forearm, if you strike hard enough it shouldn't matter where as long as you inflict the pain.
I would have to say that training the student to know what needs to come first is where the problems can incur as you have stated.

 

[psi_radar]

Guys, use the techniques situationally. That's the intention behind learning 154 techniques--you've got one for just about every likely scenario, and they can be adjusted easily. If someone grabs you with the right, and the left's coming in, just adjust to Triggered Salute--it'll stop the left for sure. If they've past the point of grabbing and now are pulling you into the punch, it makes more sense to step forward and push their jaw off than step back and go for the arm.
Or come in from the outside, with the left side of Lone Kimono, as I've already stated.
If you've got time and you've already got your hands up "hey man, I don't want any trouble" Delayed Sword works well, and it's an excellent strike teaching tool. *Hammer* *Thrust* *Whip*

 

[MisterMike]

Wouldn't one way to tell if it is a grab or a punch coming in is to look at whether their incoming hand is open or closed?

Granted, open or not, it is still a straight line coming in at you so it can be handled as a punch if you get to it in time.

Also, I think more right hands coming in are going to be punches since there aren't as many left handers out there.

Just my 3 pennies..

 

[Touch Of Death]

When I **** my hand up to do a hammering inward my elbow IS anchored, and it looks alot like an extended outward block to me. :shrug:

If you will notice, when getting to the starting point of reference for a hammer, you are sort of swinging your arm behind you to do so. Besides a possible hammer fist the the groin of the person behind you the move is worthless until the starting point of refernce for a hammer is acheived; however, a simple thrust off the hip is the begining of your thrusting inward block or an outward extended.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Wouldn't one way to tell if it is a grab or a punch coming in is to look at whether their incoming hand is open or closed?

Granted, open or not, it is still a straight line coming in at you so it can be handled as a punch if you get to it in time.

Also, I think more right hands coming in are going to be punches since there aren't as many left handers out there.

Just my 3 pennies..

One out of every nine people.
Sean :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

TOD,
Your response to Kenpo 12's Short Form 1 question sparked my interest. Do you do the first block of Short 1 as a thrust? If so why? It is my understanding that the Forms are to teach us principles and rules of motion and that every move has an opposite and a reverse. Do you teach your students at the white belt level to thrust both inward blocks?

K3631,
Maybe I wasn't clear. If you do that first hammering block out of a meditating horse, the hammer part of the block is not there to do. Hammering blocks start with the fist at the same shoulder, if your already half way there (meditating horse), then you just graft a thrust the rest of the way to the target. So, my point is that "EVERYBODY" thrusts that first inward block, including you.
Sean

 

[kenpo3631]

K3631,
Maybe I wasn't clear. If you do that first hammering block out of a meditating horse, the hammer part of the block is not there to do. Hammering blocks start with the fist at the same shoulder, if your already half way there (meditating horse), then you just graft a thrust the rest of the way to the target. So, my point is that "EVERYBODY" thrusts that first inward block, including you.
Sean

Interesting...I have heard Skip Hancock explain that stuff and I don't really subscribe to it. I admire him for his insight and thought process, I just don't subscribe to that line of thinking.

Personally there are more methods of execution than just hammer, whip and thrust, but that is besides the point. I also understand that you can alter anything to fit your style of Kenpo, (remember from the System we derive our style or way of doing it). However the forms created by Mr. Parker were designed to teach certain things. By altering the methods of execution wouldn't change the teachings of the form?

The point is that a hammering blow generally comes from HIGH to LOW and thrust generally goes from LOW to HIGH. With that as a guide how can the first block in Short Form 1 be taught as anything but a hammering inward?

 

[kenpo12]

"Maybe I wasn't clear. If you do that first hammering block out of a meditating horse, the hammer part of the block is not there to do. Hammering blocks start with the fist at the same shoulder, if your already half way there (meditating horse), then you just graft a thrust the rest of the way to the target. So, my point is that "EVERYBODY" thrusts that first inward block, including you."


No, you don't thrust the first block and that's exactly why I asked. If you're doing short 1 wrong you will probably do alot of the yellow/orange technique's wrong.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Interesting...I have heard Skip Hancock explain that stuff and I don't really subscribe to it. I admire him for his insight and thought process, I just don't subscribe to that line of thinking.

Personally there are more methods of execution than just hammer, whip and thrust, but that is besides the point. I also understand that you can alter anything to fit your style of Kenpo, (remember from the System we derive our style or way of doing it). However the forms created by Mr. Parker were designed to teach certain things. By altering the methods of execution wouldn't change the teachings of the form?

The point is that a hammering blow generally comes from HIGH to LOW and thrust generally goes from LOW to HIGH. With that as a guide how can the first block in Short Form 1 be taught as anything but a hammering inward?

You have totaly misunderstood the concept of hammer, thrust, and whip. They do not refer to the direction from which you come, they refer to the muscle groups you use. Hammer is a very specific downward motion you do in your shoulder; so, if that downward motion has already happened (vis the meditating horse) you are grafting a thrust. Justs for ****s and grins I was hoping you could list some of these "other" methods of execution for me to chew on. :asian:
Sean