Deflecting Hammer

[Kenpojujitsu3]

ok here's what I've been taught, hopefully my description is accurate enough:

I do this technique from 'neutral'. The arms are raised high to frame the attack. The lead (right) arm in particular is chambered high in preparation for the downward-block.

As the kick comes in, I push-drag off center-line. As the right foot plants with a PAM, I simultaneously execute the right downward-block along the 9-3 line, along with a left 'slap-check' to the right shoulder. So at that point in time, my left hand is specifically placed onto the top of the right shoulder, bracing my upper body and providing stablity to the blocking arm. I'm in a right-neutral-bow still (but now positioned off the line of attack). Should the attacker be punching also, this placement of the left hand allows it to be easily brought up into a parry/check position.

I'm not expecting to have the need to deal with any punch though - firstly because I've moved off center line, but also because the attacker will be spun round further: the specific angle the block takes (perpendicular to the attack), along with the 'slap-check' and 'PAM' makes this possible. So he'll find it really difficult to make any kind of effective punch at me.

I'm still having difficulty seeing how push-dragging back along the 12-6 line is going to do you any favours: The kick is still coming straight at you, right? When the blocking arm makes contact with the attacker's leg, it will strike the top of the leg because your arm will need to be across your own center-line in order to catch the leg. The amount of force that is available to block the leg sideways is limited because the blocking arm is not (in my mind) ideally placed in this position. Because you are striking the top of the leg, I see you redirecting the stronger kicks into your hip area. ouch.

I would say, a downward-block is most effective when it has completed it's 'full travel' and is extended out to your side. By trying to 'downward block' at one's center-line instead of at the side, the blocking arm has barely begun it's movement. Doesn't seem very strong to me.... The parrying motion that has been described so far would also have less of an effect on the attacker. As he's 'pulled in' to you, would this not aid his punching potential rather than take it away? his width has not been cancelled...

I'm sticking to my guns: Move off-center, cancel his width, take away his weapons. All good kenpo principles. By not doing this, one would always have to deal with the potential incoming punch. Sure, you can do it, but the technique becomes much more risky for a beginner. Give people something simple and effective at first, and play around with variations and 'parrying blocks' (yuck) after they have a firm grasp of the basics.

just my opinion of course..

Opinion noted. The way it's done in other circles (call it motion kenpo if you will by your terminology) uses the push drag to aid the block in causing a minor deflection instead of major deflection. Back-up mass powering the block in the reverse direction. The major deflection along the 9-3 line doesn't allow the block to automatically recock the weapon which is a fundamental concept of the motion interpretation. Blocking along the 11-5 line or 10-4 line automatically pulls the elbow back and cocked for the next move while clearing the hip and side as well. That's the main point to this technique in the "motion interpretation". A major redirection is not wanted in this technique as this technique is introducing the concept of disrupting the opponent's balance by elongating his base. Up to this point on the yellow belt chart that hasn't be done yet. We're also borrowing the attackers forward momentum and letting them run into the elbow. This extra force is lost if a major deflection block is used as the attackers momentum is sent on a line that no longer runs parrallel with our line of force. The opponent is not spun because the technique is teaching how to access the frontal centerline which is a recurring theme in the motion Yellow Belt Chart as every technique on that chart makes the frontal centerline available (Even Grasp of Death or The Pincher depending on what line you learned it from). Then on Orange the rear centerline begins being accessed. The attackers follow up punch would be braced off of one leg which isn't terribly powerful (no base, PAM, BAM or Bracing Angle present) and that's what the left hand is there to address if needed and quite easily as well with another minor deflection (parry) or major deflection (block) depending on the desired positioning. The major deflection block you speak of is done on Orange in Buckling Branch and uses a long range kick to account for the increased distance/depth caused by spinning the opponent away instead of spinning the opponent outside of contact penetration range when they were already there and then shuffling back into that same range we just negated. Also spinning the attcker unloads the right hand but loads the left for spinning backfists, kicks, etc which have far more impact potential than a lead right after a kick (but also needs a slightly longer time to execute). Pros and Cons to everything.

Short version. Stick to your guns as it works that way with pros and cons. But the "other" way works as well with it's own pros and cons. You like To-MaY-Toes I like To-MaH-Toes. Sam Ting.

 

[michaeledward]

I'm with Mr. Hawkins, and his post. There is much useful information in that post.

The one thing I will add is that we learn a prescribed response to a prescribed attack, especially at the early belt stages. The prescribed attack for Deflecting Hammer is a Right Leg Thrust Kick directed at the belt buckle. The prescription does not include the follow up punch. We get the more sophisticated attack at the more advanced levels, don't we ... Dance of Death, for instance. At the initial stages of training, it is just a single weapon attack.

Mike

 

[JamesB]

The major deflection along the 9-3 line doesn't allow the block to automatically recock the weapon which is a fundamental concept of the motion interpretation. Blocking along the 11-5 line or 10-4 line automatically pulls the elbow back and cocked for the next move while clearing the hip and side as well. That's the main point to this technique in the "motion interpretation".

I can see the logic behind the 'parrying' block now - thanks for explaining that point. I would certainly say that the way I perform this technique would be less fluid, as I require extra movement of the right arm to re-chamber for the follow-up elbow. My technique would also have different timing as I need to actively close the gap for the inward-elbow rather than having the elbow work straight off the block.

A major redirection is not wanted in this technique as this technique is introducing the concept of disrupting the opponent's balance by elongating his base. Up to this point on the yellow belt chart that hasn't be done yet. We're also borrowing the attackers forward momentum and letting them run into the elbow. This extra force is lost if a major deflection block is used as the attackers momentum is sent on a line that no longer runs parrallel with our line of force.

differing philosophies understood and appreciated - nice explanation - thanks!

The opponent is not spun because the technique is teaching how to access the frontal centerline which is a recurring theme in the motion Yellow Belt Chart as every technique on that chart makes the frontal centerline available (Even Grasp of Death or The Pincher dependingo nwhat line you learned it from). Then on Orange the rear centerline begins being accessed.

I don't quite follow what you mean by 'accessing the centerline'. Are you referring to your own center-line, or the attacker's, or both? I think if you are talking about your own centerline, you are referring to the blocking motion of the arm as it crosses your centerline, in order to protect oneself, right?

Short version. Stick to your guns as it works that way with pros and cons. But the "other" way works as well with it's own pros and cons. You like To-MaY-Toes I like To-MaH-Toes. Sam Ting.

thanks for your insights, I can understand the 'other way' a lot better now. Pros+cons of each method noted also

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I don't quite follow what you mean by 'accessing the centerline'. Are you referring to your own center-line, or the attacker's, or both? I think if you are talking about your own centerline, you are referring to the blocking motion of the arm as it crosses your centerline, in order to protect oneself, right?

I should have posted attacking the attacker's front centerline. In other words we try to open up the chest and face area as targets. The techniques constantly turn the attacker in a way that the face-chest-groin line is exposed to hands and/or feet.

Grasp of Death is the only "exception" in that we close the front centerline to our hands but the opponent is placed in face down position to open the centerline for kicks and knees that aren't used until Orange such as in Crossing Talon and Lcoked Wing.

 

[HKphooey]

A nice left hammer fist (inward block) to the scapula does wonders! And if the person comes in faster it ends up at the base of the neck/top of spine. Crank the downward block and the hammerfist at the same. Nice damage. As shuffle comes up right knee into the back of the attacker's hamstring to check/keep opponent turned (and do a little dammage).

 

[MJS]

As the kick comes in, I push-drag off center-line. As the right foot plants with a PAM, I simultaneously execute the right downward-block along the 9-3 line, along with a left 'slap-check' to the right shoulder. So at that point in time, my left hand is specifically placed onto the top of the right shoulder, bracing my upper body and providing stablity to the blocking arm. I'm in a right-neutral-bow still (but now positioned off the line of attack). Should the attacker be punching also, this placement of the left hand allows it to be easily brought up into a parry/check position.

I'm guessing that this slap check is used to cancel the punch? If thats the case, I picture the punch coming as the opponents foot is landing, ie:marriage with gravity. Will there still be time to do that slap check if the opponent is punching as he lands? As for the block, I do it as James stated, on the 11/5 or 10/4 line. 9/3, I would think would be used when doing buckling branch, to aid in turning the person, rather than just putting them on an angle.

I'm still having difficulty seeing how push-dragging back along the 12-6 line is going to do you any favours: The kick is still coming straight at you, right? When the blocking arm makes contact with the attacker's leg, it will strike the top of the leg because your arm will need to be across your own center-line in order to catch the leg. The amount of force that is available to block the leg sideways is limited because the blocking arm is not (in my mind) ideally placed in this position. Because you are striking the top of the leg, I see you redirecting the stronger kicks into your hip area. ouch.

My appologies for not being clear in my original description. Because I start this tech. from a neutral position, I step back to 7, not 6. This is putting me at a better angle.

I'm sticking to my guns: Move off-center, cancel his width, take away his weapons. All good kenpo principles. By not doing this, one would always have to deal with the potential incoming punch. Sure, you can do it, but the technique becomes much more risky for a beginner. Give people something simple and effective at first, and play around with variations and 'parrying blocks' (yuck) after they have a firm grasp of the basics.

just my opinion of course..

Thanks for the breakdown on how you perform this technique. Again, its always good to hear other viewpoints.

Mike

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I'm guessing that this slap check is used to cancel the punch? If thats the case, I picture the punch coming as the opponents foot is landing, ie:marriage with gravity. Will there still be time to do that slap check if the opponent is punching as he lands?.....Mike

No. The slap Check is BAM or Body Alignment Mechanism as taught by 'Doc' Chapel. In JamesB's description the slap-check is done to our own right shoulder to stabilize the upper body for the impact of the block.

 

[MJS]

No. The slap Check is BAM or Body Alignment Mechanism as taught by 'Doc' Chapel. In JamesB's description the slap-check is done to our own right shoulder to stabilize the upper body for the impact of the block.

Duh!! Now that I go back and re-read, yes, I see what you're saying.

See what happens when you don't read something carefully!! LOL!

 

[teej]

If you catch or check at the bicep of a right hook punch, wouldn't the elbow hinge and the right punch hit you?

If you are on the inside of a punch you should check below the elbow if you are using only one hand to block or check. [Think of that right hook having a knife or short club in the hand.]

Teej

 

[michaeledward]

If you catch or check at the bicep of a right hook punch, wouldn't the elbow hinge and the right punch hit you?

If you are on the inside of a punch you should check below the elbow if you are using only one hand to block or check. [Think of that right hook having a knife or short club in the hand.]

Teej

In the ideal phase of this technique, there is no punch.

But, even assuming a 'what if' for this technique, the punch would likely be on a linear trajectory, rather than a circular trajectory.

Your right hand is low, having blocked the leg, your left hand is high and would execute a block on the outside of the incoming punch - if the punch were there.

Further, assuming the attacker was executing a thrust kick and a hook / roundhouse punch (the range variance in this combination makes it very unrealistic, don't you think? - kick long range; hook punch short range). By using the diagonal block/frictional pull, the attacker would probably end up aborting the punch, and attempt to turn it into a grab, hold or hug. (He is after all, going to be falling foward, into you). If you were inside a right hook that evovled into a grab or hug your high left would be able to check the weapon and the impact of your right inward elbow would be even more devestating, I think.

Again, in the ideal phase of this technique, there is no right punch, and we are defending from the outside of his right.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

In the ideal phase of this technique, there is no punch.

But, even assuming a 'what if' for this technique, the punch would likely be on a linear trajectory, rather than a circular trajectory.

Your right hand is low, having blocked the leg, your left hand is high and would execute a block on the outside of the incoming punch - if the punch were there.

Further, assuming the attacker was executing a thrust kick and a hook / roundhouse punch (the range variance in this combination makes it very unrealistic, don't you think? - kick long range; hook punch short range). By using the diagonal block/frictional pull, the attacker would probably end up aborting the punch, and attempt to turn it into a grab, hold or hug. (He is after all, going to be falling foward, into you). If you were inside a right hook that evovled into a grab or hug your high left would be able to check the weapon and the impact of your right inward elbow would be even more devestating, I think.

Again, in the ideal phase of this technique, there is no right punch, and we are defending from the outside of his right.

In a word, No. the kick (long range) to close the distance followed by the haymaker (short range) is very popular with the "MMA crowd" and has been around for years. Some call it "kicking in the door before smashing the guy behind it". Quite realistic (I've actually knocked a few silly with it myself). This part is hitting the nail on the head however as that's the intention in that what if. Take the slack off the punch due to the opponent's poor positioning and then drop the sucker.

To the poster that said the block should be below the forearm....you are right if you are just blocking. Catching the bicep instead is applicable for checking, grabbing or jamming the arm which is what would be done here to keep the opponent's upper carriage leaning back and facilitate an easier takedown. Also at that range trying to block below the elbow may well put your block behind you depending on the comparative speed of your shuffle.