Thrusting Inward Blocks

[Doc]

The problem with this discussion comes from a mistaken notion or misunderstanding with regards to "point of origin." In Motion-Kenpo this terminology is often tied to "economy of motion" and they are both very much understood. This has most quite mistakenly equating POO with some type of expeditious linear or straight line execution. This is absolutely false.

Point of origin is simply the most efficient AND EFFECTIVE use of natural weapons starting from whatever position they happen to be in at the moment of execution. NEITHER term means exclusively linear OR circular, and both terms encompass linear and circular movements for maximum effectiveness.

This misunderstanding is so pervasive, I often use the term "Circular Point of Origin" just to get some to consider its existence is quite compatible with "Economy of Movement." Neither term is defined by speed nor a specific angle or execution, but instead as I was taught, by its effectiveness.

Motion-Kenpo places such an emphasis on just "moving," this simple fact can ellude many to the detriment of their arts execution. If you check the archives, you'll find somewhere Dennis and I had this conversation before. His position was "There is no circular point of origin, there is just point of origin." He's correct, but Dennis thinks different even though he is Motion-Kenpo. So for those who subscribe to the "linear" is POO, add CPOO to your equations.

Consider a QB in American Football has to throw the ball. Sometimes a "line drive" toss is effective. Sometimes he has to lob the ball in an arc, but the object is to get the ball to the receiver.

(Please hurry football season)

KenpoDoc that makes your thoughts on the subject absolute on the money.

 

[kenposikh]

Hey Doc this discussion sounds familiar remember I was talking to you in ireland about the misunderstanding and relationship between POO and economy of motion basically in my opinion they are two completely different things. A thrusting inward block is in itself wasted motion as you have missed out a major element of the block i.e. effectiveness.

For example a thrusting inward block may have an effect on someone who is smaller and not as strong as you but will be less effective against a stronger person.

However employing correct circular motion will be just as fast and however on this occassion will work against any opponent.

The blocks may both get to the same place but the trajectory they take is different. I had a hard time dealing with th term CPOO but know I understand that it is used to differentiate between a linear and circular trajectory.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Straight line vs Circular.

A straight line may be the shortest line between two points but it is not always the fastest. In Space travel gravitaional forces while linear in action frequently cause circles to be the fastest way to send an objest to a different point in space. The biomechanics of human motion are such that linear contraction of muscles causes circular motion around joints. (A tongue thrust might be an exception to this rule but it's a relatively ineffective Kenpo strike.) This means that moving a weapon like a fist in a linear motion requires a much more complicate muscular sequence than moving it in a circular motion. So the direct thrusting motion from a hip to the inward block position is actually more difficult from a motor perspective than a circular motion. Further during the mid points of this motion the muscles contracting to cause the forward motion are different than the muscles which allow the forearm to rigidly oppose a strike in the final blocking position. Thus, unless the block is fully in place the classic thrusting inward block has less margin for error than a block with hammering motion. Further whipping motion with it's augmentation of speed along multiple joint lines may allow faster velocity in a curved approach rather than a linear approach.

I have now talked myself out of the classic thrusting inward block as anything other than category completion. The flaws I see are:

• Line of action vs path of action.

• Line of force incorrect for desired response.

• More complicated motion biomechanically.

• Weaker block until fully in position.

• Trying to maintain appropriate blocking rigidity in mid block interferes with the thrusting motion and in effect puts the breaks on.

• Whipping action potentially faster due to augmentation of velocity along multiple joint lines.
  

I'm sure someone can tell me why I'm wrong. I look forward to your response.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[Kenpodoc]

The problem with this discussion comes from a mistaken notion or misunderstanding with regards to "point of origin." In Motion-Kenpo this terminology is often tied to "economy of motion" and they are both very much understood. This has most quite mistakenly equating POO with some type of expeditious linear or straight line execution. This is absolutely false.

Point of origin is simply the most efficient AND EFFECTIVE use of natural weapons starting from whatever position they happen to be in at the moment of execution. NEITHER term means exclusively linear OR circular, and both terms encompass linear and circular movements for maximum effectiveness.

This misunderstanding is so pervasive, I often use the term "Circular Point of Origin" just to get some to consider its existence is quite compatible with "Economy of Movement." Neither term is defined by speed nor a specific angle or execution, but instead as I was taught, by its effectiveness.

Motion-Kenpo places such an emphasis on just "moving," this simple fact can ellude many to the detriment of their arts execution. If you check the archives, you'll find somewhere Dennis and I had this conversation before. His position was "There is no circular point of origin, there is just point of origin." He's correct, but Dennis thinks different even though he is Motion-Kenpo. So for those who subscribe to the "linear" is POO, add CPOO to your equations.

Consider a QB in American Football has to throw the ball. Sometimes a "line drive" toss is effective. Sometimes he has to lob the ball in an arc, but the object is to get the ball to the receiver.

(Please hurry football season)

KenpoDoc that makes your thoughts on the subject absolute on the money.

Thanks. Now I get to spend several months reevaluating everything. Fortunately I have an instructor who tolerates my continuous reevaluation of what I'm doing and encourages me to share my questions.

Jeff :asian:

 

[Jagdish]

Straight line vs Circular.

A straight line may be the shortest line between two points but it is not always the fastest. In Space travel gravitaional forces while linear in action frequently cause circles to be the fastest way to send an objest to a different point in space. The biomechanics of human motion are such that linear contraction of muscles causes circular motion around joints. (A tongue thrust might be an exception to this rule but it's a relatively ineffective Kenpo strike.) This means that moving a weapon like a fist in a linear motion requires a much more complicate muscular sequence than moving it in a circular motion. So the direct thrusting motion from a hip to the inward block position is actually more difficult from a motor perspective than a circular motion. Further during the mid points of this motion the muscles contracting to cause the forward motion are different than the muscles which allow the forearm to rigidly oppose a strike in the final blocking position. Thus, unless the block is fully in place the classic thrusting inward block has less margin for error than a block with hammering motion. Further whipping motion with it's augmentation of speed along multiple joint lines may allow faster velocity in a curved approach rather than a linear approach.

I'm sure someone can tell me why I'm wrong. I look forward to your response.

Respectfully,

Jeff

Sir:

I would like to add something more to your above text but i cannot as i feel the same as you.

I think as our body is built we can moves more efficiently in circles and curves and what appears to be a line is no more that a part of a circle to infinitum. Also circular motion reduces friction so you can get faster with your blows.

I think if you want to block with your hand from the waist in a linear path and want to really stop a incoming punch then the solution will be to make a block like a upward elbow with your knuckles touching your elbow... but then we are not talking about a inward block per se.

Trying to block in a linear path will have less effect as you will be blocking with your hand only and may be you have a good body interconnection but you won't be blocking with your whole body.

It's hard for me to convey thoughts and feelings to words but i hope to make it right in this post. :asian:

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[Kenpodoc]

Sir:

I would like to add something more to your above text but i cannot as i feel the same as you.

I think as our body is built we can moves more efficiently in circles and curves and what appears to be a line is no more that a part of a circle to infinitum. Also circular motion reduces friction so you can get faster with your blows.

I think if you want to block with your hand from the waist in a linear path and want to really stop a incoming punch then the solution will be to make a block like a upward elbow with your knuckles touching your elbow... but then we are not talking about a inward block per se.

Trying to block in a linear path will have less effect as you will be blocking with your hand only and may be you have a good body interconnection but you won't be blocking with your whole body.

It's hard for me to convey thoughts and feelings to words but i hope to make it right in this post. :asian:

Yours,

Jagdish

Thanks.
I asume you speak spanish as your first language. Your english is quite good but go ahead and respond in spanish and let those that choose translate for themselves.

Jeff :asian:

 

[Jagdish]

Thanks.
I asume you speak spanish as your first language. Your english is quite good but go ahead and respond in spanish and let those that choose translate for themselves.

Jeff :asian:

Sir:

Thanks for your quick response.

By the way, I speak 4/5 languages ( :asian: ) but i was referring the limits words have over our feelings. When i read my past posts referred to technicals points i see clearly that words don't make justice to what we want to express.


Apart from this when i see/read/feel that our system has circles and curves as main paths/movements i start wondering if it was influenced by taoist systems like Ba Gua ...???

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[Jagdish]

Sir:

I think if you want to block with your hand from the waist in a linear path and want to really stop a incoming punch then the solution will be to make a block like a upward elbow with your knuckles touching your elbow... but then we are not talking about a inward block per se.
Jagdish

Again this example is no more than a weapon covering a circular path.

Jagdish

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm afraid I see all this stuff a little differently.

First off, I'd separate what needs to be taught and learned to beginners from what more-sophisticated folks need to work on.

Second off--motion kenpo or not--I'd point out that Mr. Parker's books clearly differentiate between a hammering and a thrusting inward block: you only really need to look at the beginning of Short Form 1, or his repeated very clear statements to that effect.

Third off, I'd again note that discarding things out of the system of kenpo is a good way to shortchange students. A lot of those, "useless," moves turn out to be pretty important later in one's training--for example, that "waste," motion of a hammering block? that, "extra," little circle? Take a gander at the relation between that and the way the blocking hands circle with the first moves of Delayed Sword, Short Form 2, Long Form 2, and, "more-advanced," techniques such as Ram and the Eagle.

Fourth--as for the thrusting blocks and the debate over points of origin, well, sometimes what appears to be a "useless," addition, a violation of the whole idea of point of origin, isn't useless at all. See, for example, Thundering Hammers' back-knuckle, which, "rolls," away from its target with the opponent's movement, or the transition from one side to the other of that same technique in Long Form 4.

Most of all, I suppose I do tend to be a bit traditionalist--about training, anyway, because I think sweating is superior to theorizing. And while I realize that some folks maybe don't need some of this stuff (I have to add that it's a lot fewer folks than the number who THINK they don't need this stuff), I think that with human beings and martial arts, you have to get at the inside stuff by working through the outside stuff.

Even in the, "internal," systems (I'm currently wading through Frantzis', "The Power of Internal Martial Arts;" excellent book) such as t'ai chi, one trains and trains and trains the outer movement first, saving the internal jazz for later.

 

[Kenpodoc]

I don't really mean to throw out the traditional thrusting inward block but I see it very differently now. As to mat time vs. talk time. Most of my Kenpo analysis occurs in the car when actual physical interaction would be dangerous. (I'm sure I look silly blocking checking and parrying in the car in the minimalist manner that I have adapted for driving.) I'm the guy who goes to class or to my son at home and says punch me I want to try something.

Thanks for your response Robert,

Jeff

 

[howardr]

Even in the, "internal," systems (I'm currently wading through Frantzis', "The Power of Internal Martial Arts;" excellent book) such as t'ai chi, one trains and trains and trains the outer movement first, saving the internal jazz for later.

I've read that book recently. Simply fascinating.

 

[Jagdish]

Even in the, "internal," systems (I'm currently wading through Frantzis', "The Power of Internal Martial Arts;" excellent book) such as t'ai chi, one trains and trains and trains the outer movement first, saving the internal jazz for later.

That book is really good. The Ba gua part is simply fascinating. :supcool:

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[Touch Of Death]

I wouldn't recomend a thrusting inward block on the first move of delayed sword, but to eliminate thrust upon the usage of the equation formula really short changes a student on a whole catagory of choices, were your hands at your sides. Simply reaching in and horsebiting the thigh or launching back with a handfull of what ever can really create some intersting openings for a counter attack. Thrust rocks! Rolling the shoulder and bending your arm for the big shot is slower by one beat. Good luck!
Sean

 

[Doc]

Straight line vs Circular.

A straight line may be the shortest line between two points but it is not always the fastest. In Space travel gravitaional forces while linear in action frequently cause circles to be the fastest way to send an objest to a different point in space. The biomechanics of human motion are such that linear contraction of muscles causes circular motion around joints. (A tongue thrust might be an exception to this rule but it's a relatively ineffective Kenpo strike.) This means that moving a weapon like a fist in a linear motion requires a much more complicate muscular sequence than moving it in a circular motion. So the direct thrusting motion from a hip to the inward block position is actually more difficult from a motor perspective than a circular motion. Further during the mid points of this motion the muscles contracting to cause the forward motion are different than the muscles which allow the forearm to rigidly oppose a strike in the final blocking position. Thus, unless the block is fully in place the classic thrusting inward block has less margin for error than a block with hammering motion. Further whipping motion with it's augmentation of speed along multiple joint lines may allow faster velocity in a curved approach rather than a linear approach.

I have now talked myself out of the classic thrusting inward block as anything other than category completion. The flaws I see are:

• Line of action vs path of action.

• Line of force incorrect for desired response.

• More complicated motion biomechanically.

• Weaker block until fully in position.

• Trying to maintain appropriate blocking rigidity in mid block interferes with the thrusting motion and in effect puts the breaks on.

• Whipping action potentially faster due to augmentation of velocity along multiple joint lines.
  

I'm sure someone can tell me why I'm wrong. I look forward to your response.

Respectfully,

Jeff

Big misunderstandings abound about the "thrusting block." Mr. Parker NEVER used it as a purely defensive mechanism. I would like for someone to come up with a piece of film or video that has Mr. Parker blocking with a thrusting action when executing a defensive block from the inside at street speed. It doesn't exist. Those that expound "it is quicker," simply are a tad lean in the knowledge and skill developement department when it comes to human anatomy. In fact when Mr. Parker executed with authority, his block was actually traveling "downward" when it made contact in his circular execution. Some people fall into the trap of "over-thinking" a simple concept. The thrust does have validity when placed into proper context, however expediency is not the dictating factor, efficiency is.

 

[Jagdish]

..." Mr. Parker NEVER used it as a purely defensive mechanism. I would like for someone to come up with a piece of film or video that has Mr. Parker blocking with a thrusting action when executing a defensive block from the inside at street speed. It doesn't exist...

... In fact when Mr. Parker executed with authority, his block was actually traveling "downward" when it made contact in his circular execution...

I have been thinking about this for some months , specially when doing alternating maces. When you are being pushed you cannot pretend to block and then press both arms downward. There are two aims here and find difficult to make them possible.

When practicing i find hammering downward to be the correct way of executing it. It brings the arms of the opponent down. Doing with enough power & speed it brings the opponent down to his knees.


I know i am doing it right when my whole body acts like loading a spring...and you can explode to another blow with the same arm.

Actually i find fascinating to discover within the S/D tec. that your initial move apart from defending yourself from the attack loads your body in order to get maximum power & speed for your follow-up.

Well, these were some quick thoughts...

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[Doc]

I have been thinking about this for some months , specially when doing alternating maces. When you are being pushed you cannot pretend to block and then press both arms downward. There are two aims here and find difficult to make them possible.

When practicing i find hammering downward to be the correct way of executing it. It brings the arms of the opponent down. Doing with enough power & speed it brings the opponent down to his knees.


I know i am doing it right when my whole body acts like loading a spring...and you can explode to another blow with the same arm.

Actually i find fascinating to discover within the S/D tec. that your initial move apart from defending yourself from the attack loads your body in order to get maximum power & speed for your follow-up.

Well, these were some quick thoughts...

Yours,

Jagdish

Sounds pretty close to how I teach it.

 

[donald]

G7,

I was taught that our blocks should be strikes. Is this incorrect? Is this what you meant in your response here?

By GOD'S Grace,
Donald 1st John 1:9 :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Who said anything about beig purely defensive?

 

[Goldendragon7]

G7,
I was taught that our blocks should be strikes. Is this incorrect? Is this what you meant in your response here?

Not "should", but could, depending on your intent.

 

[Doc]

Not "should", but could, depending on your intent.

Absolutely. I think this is the great misunderstanding. Everyone rushing to "shorthand" when they haven't even learned the alphabet.