Latest TOW, Intellctual Departure

[Touch Of Death]

But not with the ideal stage.

Mr. Parker had an habbit of changing the ideal from decade to decade. Why is your particular ideal superior to another's. Why do you think the way I block on the first move of short form one has anything to do with the way I perform yellow and orange techs. If you put your hands up to protect your self, and you understand the ideal to always start with your hands at your sides aren't you in a bit of a jam?
Sean

 

[kenpoangel]

<<Good discussion (too bad it is totally off the original subject).>>

A Kenpo Forum discussion went off the original subject?

Naaaaahhhhhh,

artyon:

Angela

 

[Touch Of Death]

<<Good discussion (too bad it is totally off the original subject).>>

A Kenpo Forum discussion went off the original subject?

Naaaaahhhhhh,

artyon:

Angela

Its actualy related to the clip in a relative way, so to speak.
Sean :uhyeah:

 

[kenpoangel]

Its actualy related to the clip in a relative way, so to speak.
Sean :uhyeah:

Hey now,

That wasn't directed at you...that was more of a comment to Derek bringing that up at the end of his last post.

I'm outta here,

:iws:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hey now,

That wasn't directed at you...that was more of a comment to Derek bringing that up at the end of his last post.

I'm outta here,

:iws:

Sorry, your quote was not blue and I missed the post before yours. :asian:
Sean

 

[dcence]

Uh...it's not wasted motion, for all sorts of reasons. Please check "Infinite Insights," in which Mr. Parker chambers the right hand before blocking.

Robert,
I am not sure we are on the same page here. To quote chapter and verse, Infinite Insights V, p. 16-17 show no such chambering for Short 1 (or Long 1). If you are referring to another portion, please direct us to it.
Thanks
Derek

 

[dcence]

Mr. Ence:

Sorry, no. Again, please look at "Infinite Insights," where the form is demonstrated. Then too, a bunch of us got--let's just say fully informed--last night. By the same guy who did the Tip.

I'd also argue that the question of hammering/thrusting is different from the issue of positional, riding, etc. checks. Hammering/thrusting has to do with method; positional, riding, etc. have to do with effects. Similarly, blocks and checks are different, though blocks should (as you noted) have a checking effect.

Thanks for the point,
Robert

Ah, sorry. No, again. There are positional blocks, as opposed to positional checks. See Infinite Insights, III, pp. 7, 46-49, to quote chapter and verse.

Checks prevent a strike (preventative), blocks deflect a strike (remedial). Positional is method, not result.

 

[ArnoldLee]

I wonder if much of the confusion comes from looking at the action of the arm, shoulder etc. in the same way as in the parable of the blind men and the elephant.

A hammering inward block usually starts at the point of reference for hammering with the shoulder laterally rotated and then hammers inward to a medial position.

In Short 1 the motion of the body as you launch back to a right neutral "peels" away the arm and so what LOOKs like a hammering inward block can as Sean stated, use a pure thrusting action in the shoulder muscles. Can be very confusing.
*The point of reference looks like you should hammer.
*The motion looks like a hammer.
*It seems to end in the same position as if you had hammered.

What makes it even worse is that if you concentrate on the proximal muscle motion you CAN hammer and very effectively at that if you freeze the shoulder and move the body around the joint so that that the shoulder achieves that lateral rotation.

That being said in light of the original clip, IF I had the time I would get my hands up into the point of reference for hammer (hands up, don't want no trouble pose), better margin for error, stronger muscle action, etc, etc.
But darn... if someone is in Contact stage to me, moving with a purpose and has caught me with my arms down, no way in heck I'm gonna orbit that arm up, I'd "shoot from the hip" and thrust. I firmly believe that it is a very valuable skill to be able to do Delayed Sword with a thrusting motion for the first move...might save my life someday.

 

[kenpo12]

Ah, sorry. No, again. There are positional blocks, as opposed to positional checks. See Infinite Insights, III, pp. 7, 46-49, to quote chapter and verse.

Checks prevent a strike (preventative), blocks deflect a strike (remedial). Positional is method, not result.

I don't think Robert ever said there weren't positional blocks.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Derek, I'll recheck. For once, I didn't have the book in front of me--and it's possible I distorted a little because I got slightly chewed about this just last night.

On other matters, I thought your points were good, if you don't mind my saying so, especially the one about the difficulty of distinguishing a grab from a push.

Thanks.

 

[MJS]

But not with the ideal stage.

True, but how can you be sure that every stage is gonna be ideal?? Sure, during training, the techs. should be done w/o any changes, but under the stress of not knowing whats coming at you...well, thats the time to use whats gonna work!

Mike

 

[kenpo12]

True, but how can you be sure that every stage is gonna be ideal?? Sure, during training, the techs. should be done w/o any changes, but under the stress of not knowing whats coming at you...well, thats the time to use whats gonna work!

Mike

I completely agree. I have no problems with variations when the poo hits the fan. I'm speaking strictly when you are working the ideal stage or teaching the technique.

 

[MJS]

I completely agree. I have no problems with variations when the poo hits the fan. I'm speaking strictly when you are working the ideal stage or teaching the technique.

Gottcha!! Yes, I agree with you on that also. Its hard enough for a beginner to learn the tech in its original form, nevermind trying to throw the 'what ifs' at them!

Mike

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Gottcha!! Yes, I agree with you on that also. Its hard enough for a beginner to learn the tech in its original form, nevermind trying to throw the 'what ifs' at them!

Mike

The force is becoming strong with this one OB won.

Dark Lord

 

[MJS]

The force is becoming strong with this one OB won.

Dark Lord

The Jedi Master must be having a positive effect on the young one. :asian:

Mike

 

[kenpo3631]

You have totaly misunderstood the concept of hammer, thrust, and whip. They do not refer to the direction from which you come, they refer to the muscle groups you use. Hammer is a very specific downward motion you do in your shoulder; so, if that downward motion has already happened (vis the meditating horse) you are grafting a thrust. Justs for ****s and grins I was hoping you could list some of these "other" methods of execution for me to chew on. :asian:
Sean

This is YOUR view and the views of Skip. There is nothing wrong for beliveing in what you believe in. However if you thrust then you are changing the basic premise of what is being taught, which is the method of HAMMERING & THRUSTING. Each are distinct and are done so to illustrate each method to the begginer.
Besides if you are retreating, settling your base as you hit the neutral bow, and your hammer is effective then why would you have to thrust?

 

[kenpo3631]

First, there is nothing wrong teaching it and doing it by the book.

However, I do not first teach Delayed Sword against a grab for two reasons, which I believe have more merit than your list:

(1) You cannot distinguish a grab from a strike until contact, at which point it is too late to decide, especially if the grab turns out to be a strike. A push, palm heel and a grab all look the same as they come at you. I believe it is important for beginners to learn first, solutions that work for all three problems, then teach them variations that are more situationally specific. Teach general rule, then variations and exceptions relating to specifics.

(2) It is more important to learn to first deal with an attacker as he enters your within contact range, than after he has made contact. This is the priority when actually defending yourself. I do believe it is important to train for a grab that has been applied, but not first, because it establishes the mind-set in order of reversed priorities.

But I learned "old school" and I think (or at least hope) I turned out alright.

Good discussion (too bad it is totally off the original subject).

Derek

Mr. Ence,
So do you believe that a student cannot predict what type of strike is to be thrown by an assailant through the reading of body language? Can you not differentiate the intent of a punch from that of a push or grab on most occassions? There are many books about this subject as well as related classes. I do feel however that experience is the best tool when choosing a method to dealing with human conflict.

I do agree that teaching the general rule should be emphasized. It should also be taught correctly, with the emphasis on the underlying principle.

It is more important to learn to first deal with an attacker as he enters your within contact range, than after he has made contact

This is true. Doesn't this apply to any defense to a physical confrontation though? What says you can't instill this in your student as you teach them the "ideal phase" of the technique?

 

[dcence]

Mr. Ence,
So do you believe that a student cannot predict what type of strike is to be thrown by an assailant through the reading of body language? Can you not differentiate the intent of a punch from that of a push or grab on most occassions? There are many books about this subject as well as related classes. I do feel however that experience is the best tool when choosing a method to dealing with human conflict.

I do agree that teaching the general rule should be emphasized. It should also be taught correctly, with the emphasis on the underlying principle.

It is more important to learn to first deal with an attacker as he enters your within contact range, than after he has made contact

This is true. Doesn't this apply to any defense to a physical confrontation though? What says you can't instill this in your student as you teach them the "ideal phase" of the technique?

Some are more adept at reading body language than others, and this skill increases with training. But the beginner learning Delayed Sword will have a very difficult time. Maybe do an experiment and let an attacker come at you with a grab, push to your chest, a right palm heel, or even a punch, all with the right hand and with the same body movement. Try to guess. Maybe you can. Most can't, especially a beginner. When you parry a punch or palm heel into yourself thinking you were pinning a grab, the results will be pretty clear.

So what do we teach a new student with Delayed Sword against a grab -- we are teaching the student to stand there, allow the attacker into the danger zone, yet stand with your feet together, until they have a good hold on you. Logically, it doesn't make sense.

Certainly, someone can grab you when your head is turned, or you aren't paying attention for one reason or another, and so it is important to learn to extricate yourself from a manipulation, but that is a more specific level of training to me, than attempting to intercept an inbound limb regardless of what they intend to do with the hand that is on the end.

Just a different approach of thought.
Derek

 

[rmcrobertson]

I agree, I think--and, it seems to me, that if you teach the grab first, you're a) including the other strikes, since to grab somebody has to reach pretty far in there; b) teaching some important things about checks, about stepping back, etc.; c) leaving the other posssibilities alone.

 

[kenpo3631]

Some are more adept at reading body language than others, and this skill increases with training. But the beginner learning Delayed Sword will have a very difficult time. Maybe do an experiment and let an attacker come at you with a grab, push to your chest, a right palm heel, or even a punch, all with the right hand and with the same body movement. Try to guess. Maybe you can. Most can't, especially a beginner. When you parry a punch or palm heel into yourself thinking you were pinning a grab, the results will be pretty clear.

So what do we teach a new student with Delayed Sword against a grab -- we are teaching the student to stand there, allow the attacker into the danger zone, yet stand with your feet together, until they have a good hold on you. Logically, it doesn't make sense.

Certainly, someone can grab you when your head is turned, or you aren't paying attention for one reason or another, and so it is important to learn to extricate yourself from a manipulation, but that is a more specific level of training to me, than attempting to intercept an inbound limb regardless of what they intend to do with the hand that is on the end.

Just a different approach of thought.
Derek

Sir,
I teach it against an opponent grabbing you with his right (to hold you in place :erg: ) and punching with the left. It gets the point home that the student must step back to cancel out the back up weapon.