Kotegaeshi with a difference

[Tony Dismukes]

What do you mean by resistance?

As I said in another post, define resistance. Usually there is a misunderstanding with this term.
Resistance is putting effort and strength in order to stop the technique from happening

I'll repeat something I said in an earlier thread ...

"Resistance" doesn't mean that (for example) uke waits until nage has a full-fledged kotegaeshi locked on and then tried to muscle out. That's just asking for a broken wrist. It would be like applying "resistance" in a boxing match by waiting until someone punches you in the face and trying to tense up your nose to resist the incoming fist.

"Resistance" or "non-compliance" involves imposing your will and your techniques on the other person while not allowing them to do the same to you, using whatever methods are allowed within the confines of the current exercise.

Getting back to kotegaeshi as an example ...
Typical application of kotegaeshi involves several steps:

Gaining control of the opponent's wrist
Using that control to break the opponent's balance and structure by leading him to overextend and compromise his alignment.
At the same time, nage will be moving off line, gaining a favorable angle relative to uke
Compromise the structure of the opponent's wrist through flexing it.
Finish by applying outwards rotation to the compromised wrist.
(There are additional details, such as leading the opponent to shift his body weight one direction then applying the kotegaeshi in the opposite direction to increase the destructive power of the lock, but I think I've covered the high points above.)

In true "non-compliant" randori, your opponent will
Try not to let you get control of his wrist
Try to break your control if you do get hold of his wrist
Work to avoid having his structure or balance compromised
Work to regain his structure and balance if it is compromised
At the same time, the opponent will be working to gain a favorable angle on you, compromise your structure and balance, and apply whatever techniques he knows (strikes, throws, trips, etc) which are allowed within the current exercise.

If you have examples of Aikido folks training with this kind of resistance, please post them. The only things I've seen along those lines are Tomiki shiai.

Why don't you if you are so emphatic about wanting evidence actually go to an Aikido dojo state your case and see if they will let you practice?

If I knew of an Aikido dojo that was open to that sort of practice (especially with a visitor from a different art), then I would love to visit them.

 

[O'Malley]

Can I as


Can I ask who you studied Iwama style under ...just curious

My teacher is a 4th dan under M. Aviotti, who is himself a 6th dan under Paolo Corallini, 7th dan under Morihiro Saito.

 

[now disabled]

If I knew of an Aikido dojo that was open to that sort of practice (especially with a visitor from a different art), then I would love to visit them.

Yes I know you would however that was not directed towards your good self in any way

 

[Martial D]

If I knew of an Aikido dojo that was open to that sort of practice (especially with a visitor from a different art), then I would love to visit them.

None of the three I visited had any interest at all in sparring or rolling. I would think that if any did that sort of thing there would be evidence of that somewhere. Contrary to what certain spaz cases might believe, I would LOVE to find aikido guys that can actually toss people around as advertised. I'm all about improving my practical game wherever and however I can .

 

[now disabled]

None of the three I visited had any interest at all in sparring or rolling. I would think that if any did that sort of thing there would be evidence of that somewhere. Contrary to what certain spaz cases might believe, I would LOVE to find aikido guys that can actually toss people around as advertised. I'm all about improving my practical game wherever and however I can .

If the spaz was directed at me then you are something else

find a tenshin dojo they will accommodate you i have no doubt and umm there are vids of Aikidoka going up against others you just need to go look, also maybe if you changed your attitude somewhat and not come over as you do and insult then you may get on a bit further ....but that just a wild thought

 

[Ryback]

Believing isn't the same as emperical evidence.

Like say, if I were to say boxing is an 'effective martial art', I could produce hundreds of videos of people winning fights with boxing, and in fact if I were to make that claim I would expect someone to call me on it. The same goes for any other system I might name, or anything else in life really.

If I claim to be ten feet tall, I wouldn't expect people to just believe me. I certainly wouldn't make such a claim and follow up any challenges to it by telling people measuring sticks don't work on me and my skin reflects off all attempts at being photographed.

Telling you to go and study the art has nothing to do with believing, on the contrary it has to do with experiencing...
Now if you think that posting videos of you or anyone winning boxing matches would prove any claim that boxing is an effective martial art, well, boxing is not a martial art, it's a combative sport and is any match, or game or sport proof of martial effectiveness?? I mean is this your idea of realistic, practical application? Rules, referees, regulations, one on one in a ring??
Like, seriously now??

 

[drop bear]

What?? Of course I can do wrist locks, joint manipulation and every kind of technique without harming the Uke but in order to do so he should relax and follow my technique at the point of application. Anyone who says anything different they don't know what they're talking about, how can it be otherwise?
And do you think that someone who is using strength in order to resist a technique is a difficult opponent? How about if he has learned to be completely relaxed in order to escape the technique or counter it,or add a strike while you are doing the wrist lock. That's what's really difficult to defend from, not people tensing up in order to stop the technique. They are soooo going down and getting hurt!!

Well not really. If someone defends with strength and structure. You basically are not wrist locking them.

Then you have to fight to break their structure using either pressure or Aikido.

That is pretty much how every submission works.

There are are all these extra elements.

 

[Martial D]

Telling you to go and study the art has nothing to do with believing, on the contrary it has to do with experiencing...
Now if you think that posting videos of you or anyone winning boxing matches would prove any claim that boxing is an effective martial art, well, boxing is not a martial art, it's a combative sport and is any match, or game or sport proof of martial effectiveness?? I mean is this your idea of realistic, practical application? Rules, referees, regulations, one on one in a ring??
Like, seriously now??

Of course boxing is a martial art. You should try it some time.

Anyway, telling me I need to experience it myself is a bit of a sketchy premise. Why would I spend a LOT of time doing something when there is no indication it would help my game? I would first need to see other people with the ability to 'aikido' people around that aren't compliantly participating before I would consider studying under them. Presumably, if you are correct, there should be thousands of such people across hundreds of schools. Surely at least one of them brushed off the peace and love thing and used it instead to win fights?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Resistance" or "non-compliance" involves imposing your will and your techniques on the other person while not allowing them to do the same to you, using whatever methods are allowed within the confines of the current exercise.

IMO, "resistance" can be as simple as your opponent tries not to give you any opportunity. You have to try to create that opportunity yourself. In other words, if you just wait for that opportunity, that opportunity may never happen.

When I was young, I tried to stay home and waited for girls to ask me out. It never happened. That was how I found out "If I want to take, I should give first."

 

[now disabled]

Of course boxing is a martial art. You should try it some time.

Anyway, telling me I need to experience it myself is a bit of a sketchy premise. Why would I spend a LOT of time doing something when there is no indication it would help my game? I would first need to see other people with the ability to 'aikido' people around that aren't compliantly participating before I would consider studying under them. Presumably, if you are correct, there should be thousands of such people across hundreds of schools. Surely at least one of them brushed off the peace and love thing and used it instead to win
fights?

You really show a total lac of understanding anything don't you,

So turn the tables again as you keep having a go at Aikidoka then what are your credentials for so doing ? you keep telling us all that this don't wor at that is crap slanging people off so what is your background in the Arts ? and how long have you been studying same that gives you the right to keep shooting people down

I noticed you state wing chung so what else ??? are you an expert grappler ? where did you study and under whom as you seem to know all so pray do tell

 

[Ryback]

I'll repeat something I said in an earlier thread ...

"Resistance" doesn't mean that (for example) uke waits until nage has a full-fledged kotegaeshi locked on and then tried to muscle out. That's just asking for a broken wrist. It would be like applying "resistance" in a boxing match by waiting until someone punches you in the face and trying to tense up your nose to resist the incoming fist.

"Resistance" or "non-compliance" involves imposing your will and your techniques on the other person while not allowing them to do the same to you, using whatever methods are allowed within the confines of the current exercise.

Getting back to kotegaeshi as an example ...
Typical application of kotegaeshi involves several steps:

Gaining control of the opponent's wrist
Using that control to break the opponent's balance and structure by leading him to overextend and compromise his alignment.
At the same time, nage will be moving off line, gaining a favorable angle relative to uke
Compromise the structure of the opponent's wrist through flexing it.
Finish by applying outwards rotation to the compromised wrist.
(There are additional details, such as leading the opponent to shift his body weight one direction then applying the kotegaeshi in the opposite direction to increase the destructive power of the lock, but I think I've covered the high points above.)

In true "non-compliant" randori, your opponent will
Try not to let you get control of his wrist
Try to break your control if you do get hold of his wrist
Work to avoid having his structure or balance compromised
Work to regain his structure and balance if it is compromised
At the same time, the opponent will be working to gain a favorable angle on you, compromise your structure and balance, and apply whatever techniques he knows (strikes, throws, trips, etc) which are allowed within the current exercise.

If you have examples of Aikido folks training with this kind of resistance, please post them. The only things I've seen along those lines are Tomiki shiai.



If I knew of an Aikido dojo that was open to that sort of practice (especially with a visitor from a different art), then I would love to visit them.

There is such practice in Aikido, at least in our dojo...
According to the specific practice of the day, in an advanced level (but sometimes not only) the Uke will use aiki principles in order to stop the technique. If he is successful, and many times he is, I will concentrate on fixing the weak point in my technique in order to affect his whole body and unbalance him... The Uke is helping me by telling me where exactly he felt the weak point that allowed him to take control, or hit me and we are working towards fixing that...
The other way of such practice is kaeshi waza, counter technique. The Uke is using his Aikido skills not to stop my technique but counter it by imposing to me another technique... His job is to do that, and my job is to be able to apply my technique anyway...
And that doesn't happen only in a pre arranged practicing mode but also randomly during practice... My Uke is supposed to attack me and I'm supposed to do, let's say Nikkyo or anything and without a warning if he gets the chance I find myself on the receiving end of his technique and I'm working towards correcting that...
Furthermore, the attack must be real and strong, no matter what kind of attack... I almost got choked yesterday because my Uke attacked me in a te Kubi shime hand and neck lock and while I was supposed to be the Tori (Nage) my timing was a bit off so I ended up tapping in order for him to release his grip.
Practicing with compliance is necessary in the early stages but later on such elements as the ones mentioned above must be introduced if one wants to study the art deeply....
Of course this is not the only aspect of Aikido, everything physical, mental, spiritual, nutrition, every aspect is important and all of them are connected to each other, none can be neglected.
Until one day, after years of practice you realize that these are not many important aspects but all of them are one! And the difference between effective and ineffective technique is hidden inside minute details... Well, detail is a *****.

 

[pdg]

Anyway, telling me I need to experience it myself is a bit of a sketchy premise. Why would I spend a LOT of time doing something when there is no indication it would help my game? I would first need to see other people with the ability to 'aikido' people around that aren't compliantly participating before I would consider studying under them. Presumably, if you are correct, there should be thousands of such people across hundreds of schools. Surely at least one of them brushed off the peace and love thing and used it instead to win fights?

To play with this concept a bit.

My personal opinion is that aikido (and closely related arts) can be useful.

I've had a couple of discussions to this effect, about how I'd like to find a competent aikidoka to work with.

A lot of tkd defensive techniques look superficially very similar to aikido techniques that are stopped part way through.

So, taking the finishing school perspective in this - I reckon it would be perfectly possible to reinterpret certain tkd stuff with an aikido flavour to expand on them.

This is not to say replace, or improve, or fill gaps - but to use movements I've already practiced in a slightly different way.


Now, from the classical practice of the art, I don't think it'd work how anyone seems to expect it to - especially against someone with reasonable competence in striking. The demonstration videos where someone does a (pisspoor) punch and then gets led on a tour of the town before falling over because of a touch on the wrist, that's just fluff.

But using what is already a successful blocking technique as a lead in to a takedown, I can see that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well not really. If someone defends with strength and structure. You basically are not wrist locking them.

Agree! If your opponent doesn't want to give you that opportunity, you have to create that opportunity yourself. So far, I have not seen any Aikido clip that uses "Give before taking" strategy yet.

 

[Martial D]

You really show a total lac of understanding anything don't you,

So turn the tables again as you keep having a go at Aikidoka then what are your credentials for so doing ? you keep telling us all that this don't wor at that is crap slanging people off so what is your background in the Arts ? and how long have you been studying same that gives you the right to keep shooting people down

I noticed you state wing chung so what else ??? are you an expert grappler ? where did you study and under whom as you seem to know all so pray do tell

Careful, or you might add a busted capillary from all this rage to your list of disabilities. I get that it makes you angry when people want to see evidence before offering belief, but it is what it is. Now back to ignore you go until you can focus on subject matter.

 

[Ryback]

Of course boxing is a martial art. You should try it some time.

Anyway, telling me I need to experience it myself is a bit of a sketchy premise. Why would I spend a LOT of time doing something when there is no indication it would help my game? I would first need to see other people with the ability to 'aikido' people around that aren't compliantly participating before I would consider studying under them. Presumably, if you are correct, there should be thousands of such people across hundreds of schools. Surely at least one of them brushed off the peace and love thing and used it instead to win fights?

Winning fights where?? In a sports environment, in a ring? I see no relation of your standards to any real martial art. You are probably looking for a sport, a game to play, so that's fine there are plenty around...
Boxing, a martial art?? Hmm, you are confused my friend...

 

[now disabled]

No my f

Careful, or you might add a busted capillary from all this rage to your list of disabilities. I get that it makes you angry when people want to see evidence before offering belief, but it is what it is. Now back to ignore you go until you can focus on subject matter.

Eh no I take offence at you making fun of disabilities etc

and calling people a spaz .....that is what I take offence to

and still no answers forthcoming


you want my credentials I'll state them no problem and they can be backed up as can my military service

All you do is state I WANT VIDS I WANT VIDS this don't work that will never work show me street fights

You also state you take martial combat seriously .....have you ever actually been in combat ? or are you just dreaming ? you wanna get into slanging things then put up your creds and back your words up with your knowledge not just the same again and again and again

 

[Martial D]

To play with this concept a bit.

My personal opinion is that aikido (and closely related arts) can be useful.

I've had a couple of discussions to this effect, about how I'd like to find a competent aikidoka to work with.

A lot of tkd defensive techniques look superficially very similar to aikido techniques that are stopped part way through.

So, taking the finishing school perspective in this - I reckon it would be perfectly possible to reinterpret certain tkd stuff with an aikido flavour to expand on them.

This is not to say replace, or improve, or fill gaps - but to use movements I've already practiced in a slightly different way.


Now, from the classical practice of the art, I don't think it'd work how anyone seems to expect it to - especially against someone with reasonable competence in striking. The demonstration videos where someone does a (pisspoor) punch and then gets led on a tour of the town before falling over because of a touch on the wrist, that's just fluff.

But using what is already a successful blocking technique as a lead in to a takedown, I can see that.

I get that. I have already stated that aikido seems to help some attributes;balance, movement, an understanding of how to lock up joints, etc.

I've just never seen evidence of anyone using aikido itself, ie anything close to how it is demoed, to beat a resisting opponent.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think all martial arts are about that, and that's not my be all end all criteria for martial arts. Many martial artists practice for health and fitness, to socialize, whatever. And that's just fine.

But when strong claims are made, the ones making them should be able to provide some sort of evidence when asked for it.

I mean, would you buy a car from a guy if he refused to start it up for you so you could make sure it actually drives?

 

[now disabled]

Winning fights where?? In a sports environment, in a ring? I see no relation of your standards to any real martial art. You are probably looking for a sport, a game to play, so that's fine there are plenty around...
Boxing, a martial art?? Hmm, you are confused my friend...

Bro he wants to see fights and vids of fights and more fights and then slang and call people out on disabilities and say he being got at

 

[Martial D]

Winning fights where?? In a sports environment, in a ring? I see no relation of your standards to any real martial art. You are probably looking for a sport, a game to play, so that's fine there are plenty around...
Boxing, a martial art?? Hmm, you are confused my friend...

Anywhere.

I mean, it's supposed to be a way to nonviolently put people away right? It should be easy to show it working.

 

[pdg]

I mean, would you buy a car from a guy if he refused to start it up for you so you could make sure it actually drives?

Umm, actually, I have done

(Special case though, the engine was never going to be used and everything else was to be overhauled or rebuilt so it driving was utterly immaterial.)