Koryu Karate

[Martin h]

Genbukan is a splintergroup from Bujinkan and the founder (Tanemura) was a student of Hatsumi (and of the same teachers as Hatsumi). But they had a falling out and parted ways.
Bujinkan consist of 9 ryus where Hatsumi is the current head.

According to Hatsumi, the one of the 9 (now known as "Koto Ryu Koppojutsu") was once known as "Shinden Koto-ryuu Karate". And was founded byTaro Kunishige around 1300 (no I have no idea if this is recognised by japanese historians or if he has valid documentation for its lineage -but it is what he claims).
Hatsumi is also careful to point out that this is not a type of karate as karate is known today, it is merely a case of a term (karate=chinese hand) being used in the same way for similar reasons (to indicate chinese roots) at different places at different times. Also he uses the term "karate" only in historical references, he does not use it on the current ryu.

Genbukan uses the mostly same history as bujinkan, but does not claim to teach exactly the same ryus (and varies a bit with names). It does not look like tkd+jujutsu as some described it, but being a "ninjutsu" style I guess they might have problem with "quality controll" of their gaijin teachers -so I would not be that supprised to find a tkd+jujutsu guy teach what he calls "genbukan" without realy knowing the real stuff.

But even if they dont claim their karate is the same thing as okinawan karate, I realy wish they would use the more generic word "kempo" instead.

 

[Brother John]

The Japanese and the Chinese did not get a long, at all.
Thats why the changed to Karate when it went to Japan, to dissassociate it with China. "China Hand" would not have been practiced in Japan.

Actually, Japan and China had gone back and forth....
friends / enemies / friends / enemies....etc. for a long long time.
BUT: For the most part, from what I've read, they were 'friendly' more often than not.
For instance, in the raising of young Samouri in the Buke (Samouri families) a good portion of their young lives were spent memorizing, line for line, the "Chinese" classics, ranging across several subjects. Also: The very way of writing is very connected.

Your Brother
John

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Genbukan uses the mostly same history as bujinkan, but does not claim to teach exactly the same ryus (and varies a bit with names). It does not look like tkd+jujutsu as some described it, but being a "ninjutsu" style I guess they might have problem with "quality controll" of their gaijin teachers -so I would not be that supprised to find a tkd+jujutsu guy teach what he calls "genbukan" without realy knowing the real stuff.

That is very true... I have practiced Judo (only several months but enough to spar a bit) and I have practiced Taekwondo (only a year to get yellow belt). So I can tell that the Genbukan-KJJR techniques that I have seen practiced here in Indonesia by a Genbukan teacher does not even remotely looks like Judo+Taekwondo... for starter, no jumping spinning kicks, no prolonged grappling on the ground, and no sparring for points... in fact most of what they do looks very much like Hakko-ryu Jujutsu that one of my teachers taught.. lots of techniques done while sitting, using wristlocks... Wristlocks are not prominent in Judo and Taekwondo as far as I know..

 

[JAMJTX]

"for starter, no jumping spinning kicks, no prolonged grappling on the ground, and no sparring for points"

This is just what was being taught at Long Island Ninjutsu. I had some students there demonstrate for me what they were learning. As I understand, this is still part of the Genbukan.

Jim Mc Coy

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

"for starter, no jumping spinning kicks, no prolonged grappling on the ground, and no sparring for points"

This is just what was being taught at Long Island Ninjutsu. I had some students there demonstrate for me what they were learning. As I understand, this is still part of the Genbukan.

Jim Mc Coy

Ah.. if I am not mistaken, that is the Dojo of Allie Alberigo Renshi, am I right? One of the more successful Genbukan Dojo in the USA, or so I am told

 

[JAMJTX]

Probably financially successful yes. But martial arts wise it's a joke.

Like I said, I know students there, or at least who were there, and got a good overview of what they were learning. It was pretty sad.

Jim Mc Coy

 

[searcher]

Do they have a website?

 

[Gene Williams]

Gene,

I'm not sure which part of my post is ridiculous.

"Koryu Karate" is the name of a system that Tanemura Sensei has put together from several schools. This has nothing to do with Ninpo/Ninjutsu. Those schools are:

Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu (aka Kijin Chosui-ryu)
Shindo Tenshin-ryu kenpo (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu)

Now, if you think that the above ryuha are ridiculous maybe you need to do some research as to who actually has studied one of these schools. I'll give some examples.

Who studied Shindo Tenshin-ryu kenpo:
Mabuni Kenwa (hey Gene, don't you study Shito-ryu?)
Sakagami Ryusho (Shito-ryu fame)
Fujitani Masatoshi (Shito-ryu)
Fujita Isamu (Fujita Seiko)

Would you tell the people above that the school they studied was ridiculous?

I am very familiar with the lineage and history of Mabuni and Sakagami. Just because some wannabee blended a bunch of styles and called it koryu doesn't make it a koryu art. It is the blend and the pretense/marketing BS that is ridiculous.

 

[TonyU]

Didn't they all start training after the Meiji restoration? thus their art and subsequent styles after make it gendai.

 

[chinto]

Hey
I've heard about Koryu Karate. Supposedly a native japanese art, older than the okinwan importThoughts??

to answer simply... NO. its that simple. Karate did not come from okinawa to japan till between 1915 and 1922, and was not really excepted till funikoshi modified it a fair amount in or around 1922 to 1928 or so.

Karate was founded and developed in Okinawa. So if it is called Karate it has a very large influince from Okinawan Karate at the least.

 

[TimoS]

to answer simply... NO. its that simple. Karate did not come from okinawa to japan till between 1915 and 1922, and was not really excepted till funikoshi modified it a fair amount in or around 1922 to 1928 or so.

Karate was founded and developed in Okinawa. So if it is called Karate it has a very large influince from Okinawan Karate at the least.

This karate doesn't really have anything to do with the Okinawan version. It just happens to use the same words (China hand in this case, I believe), as it was "imported" from China. Confusing, yes, but not unheard of. E.g. I believe there has been a sword style called kendo before the modern kendo. Read e.g. Martin h's reply to the topic earlier on on this page

 

[chinto]

This karate doesn't really have anything to do with the Okinawan version. It just happens to use the same words (China hand in this case, I believe), as it was "imported" from China. Confusing, yes, but not unheard of. E.g. I believe there has been a sword style called kendo before the modern kendo. Read e.g. Martin h's reply to the topic earlier on on this page

the term Karate refers to the Okinawan blend of chinese martial arts and the native Okinawan arts. also Kobujistu/kobudo as I have been exposed to it over the years is refering to the Okinawan use of weapons. Meany of these weapons were farm and fishing tools and a few were some what weapons availeble at diferent times depending on the laws of the time. kendo is a relitivly modern version of the use of the katana from what I understand. I have been Told by thoes who are much more knowledgeble then myself in the Japanese martial arts that Kenjitsu is the actual use of the katana in combat and that kendo is a sportorized version that was developed after the majji restoration. But, I can say this, the Okinawan version of Kobujitsu/kobudo is the use of farm and fishing tools in the most part used in enerist and in deadly efficency agenst both unarmed and armed persons. as to which predates which between Okinawan Kobujitsu/kobudo and kenjitsu, my money would with out question be on Okinawan Kobujitsu/kobudo.

 

[TimoS]

the term Karate refers to the Okinawan blend of chinese martial arts and the native Okinawan arts

Usually, yes, but there are exceptions to the rule. E.g. the China hand term has apparently been used by some famous ninja already in the 16th century, he called it Iga ryu karate. See e.g here http://www.winjutsu.com/source/sandayu.html.

This is very confusing

 

[chinto]

The original name of "Karate" was simply called "te" or Tode It was the masters of Shuri that were at that time calling the art " Te" or "Tode" Sakugawa used this term in honor of his teacher Peichin Takahara. Takahara was a master of the Okinawan version of Chuanfa.

"Tode" written in Kanji means "Chinese Hand" The same character is also used in Korean and pronunced as Tang Soo.

Bear in mind that the term "Karate" is not as old as we think. In fact karate from Okinawa is about 150 years olds. The kata practiced is about less than 100 years old. Hell, the uniform we wear is about 80 years old.


Hope this helps !

that does depend on the kata. some of them are a bit older. seisan may be easily about 200 years old or perhaps more. and kusanku is similer in that kind of posible age. karate or tode was practiced for a long time with out kata persay but some drills in strikes and other techniques.

 

[Bushikai]

Hello everyone,

Before you talk, is better to study first, or know about the person whe are talking about.

In spirit,

Henry.

 

[chinto]

Hey
I've heard about Koryu Karate. Supposedly a native japanese art, older than the okinwan importThoughts??

my first thought is LOL!!!

by definition Karate came from Okinawa. so I do not in any way buy that. that is not to say that jujitsu, the old Samurai styles do not have any strikes, they do, just as Karate has locks and sweeps and throws and brakes and grapples.
but no there is no style of Karate from japan that did not come from a modification of an Okinawan style or a Japanese style that had been derived from an Okinawan one.

 

[TimoS]

by definition Karate came from Okinawa

The karate as we know it now, yes, but as was said on the first page of this thread, this karate has nothing whatsoever to do with the karate that originates from Okinawa. It just happens to use the same ideograms that the okinawan karate of old times, China hand. There never was and never will be any copyright on the word "karate", so while it is highly unlikely that there is any connection whatsoever between these two martial arts, I don't see it as an impossibility that someone somewhere back in time on mainland Japan had called his style karate, especially if his art was chinese in origin.

 

[terryl965]

The karate as we know it now, yes, but as was said on the first page of this thread, this karate has nothing whatsoever to do with the karate that originates from Okinawa. It just happens to use the same ideograms that the okinawan karate of old times, China hand. There never was and never will be any copyright on the word "karate", so while it is highly unlikely that there is any connection whatsoever between these two martial arts, I don't see it as an impossibility that someone somewhere back in time on mainland Japan had called his style karate, especially if his art was chinese in origin.

This so true

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

I don't see it as an impossibility that someone somewhere back in time on mainland Japan had called his style karate, especially if his art was chinese in origin.

I do, the japanese were incredibly funny about their culture. They would (and a lot still do) regard everyone else as beneath them. Chances are they'd rather eat their own head than admit they recieved help from the Chinese, especially in war.

But, I can say this, the Okinawan version of Kobujitsu/kobudo is the use of farm and fishing tools in the most part used in enerist and in deadly efficency agenst both unarmed and armed persons. as to which predates which between Okinawan Kobujitsu/kobudo and kenjitsu, my money would with out question be on Okinawan Kobujitsu/kobudo.

The most dangerous thing to a retreating Samurai was a farmer who was hungry. Ever seen the film Seven Samurai? It's probably the best Samurai film ever.

The absolute fact is that despite claims for lineage and written records passed down we didn't live in that time. We weren't there and we don't know how it all worked. So we should take what we've got and use our own common sense. Some things aren't realistic to even attempt in the dojo so you should discard them. Think effective. These guys wanted to kill one another as fast as possible without getting hurt themselves. So you need to use your common sense and try to think from that perspective. That's the essence of koryu tode jutsu.

 

[TimoS]

I do, the japanese were incredibly funny about their culture. They would (and a lot still do) regard everyone else as beneath them. Chances are they'd rather eat their own head than admit they recieved help from the Chinese, especially in war.

Could be. On the other hand, they adopted the chinese writing and they also regarded the chinese culture quite highly. One of the legends of jujutsu is of a chinese man called Chin Gempin (this going from memory, I didn't check), so I still think that "china hand" is a possibility in mainland japanese martial arts