Koryu Karate

[YouAgain]

Does Koryu not just mean Oldschool? So it would just be oldschool karate?

 

[Kizaru]

Outside of references to karate by hatsumi-did it exist??

Yes.

 

[Kizaru]

Does Koryu not just mean Oldschool? So it would just be oldschool karate?

No.

 

[Kizaru]

Actuaaly doing a quick search on the Takeda ryu, turns out Takeda is the original namer of daito ryu. There is a lineage and historical connection to the roots of Aikido-why the name is streamlined I don't know

The "Takeda" involved with Daito ryu and the "Takeda" who founded "Takeda ryu Aikido" were two different people living a few hundred years apart. A "quick search" may turn up some information, but I would suggest doing a search in Japanese, or better yet, getting a copy of the "All Japan Dojo Directory" from BAB Publications, coming to Japan and checking it out for yourself.

 

[Andrew Green]

Not necessarily. If a japanese koryu had roots in chinese arts, then I don't see why they wouldn't have called it karate (with the kanji for China).

toudi = China hand

But it is more of a slang "China", the character actually refered to the Tang Dynasty.

The Japanese and the Chinese did not get a long, at all.

Thats why the changed to Karate when it went to Japan, to dissassociate it with China. "China Hand" would not have been practiced in Japan.

 

[Kizaru]

toudi = China hand

Which Chinese characters are you writing it with here?

But it is more of a slang "China", the character actually refered to the Tang Dynasty..

"Slang"? Interesting. I've never heard that before. How long have you studied Japanese for? I've studied Chinese for about 3 years, Japanese for about 6. I've been living in Japan for about 4 or 5 years now and feel pretty comfortable with my language abilities.

The Japanese and the Chinese did not get a long, at all..

Then can you explain why they imported Buddhism, Sun T'zu, Confucian values, the fundamentals of Feng Shui and Chinese characters as a system of writing? If they didn't get along "at all" I think that would be a little difficult.

Thats why they changed to Karate when it went to Japan, to dissassociate it with China. "China Hand" would not have been practiced in Japan.

Have you read the posts I wrote above?

唐手 (KARA TE) "Tang" or "Chinese" Hand. Typically used to classify martial arts systems arriving in Japan during or before the "Warring States" period.

空手 (KARA TE) "Empty Hand". Typically used as a catch all phrase for Okinawan martial arts systems.

 

[Gene Williams]

I have never heard, until recently, the term "koryu" applied to any karate. Koryu usually refers to the older Japanese arts related to sword and the aiki/jujutsu arts. The people I know who use the term in relation to karate are using it to try to give lineage to what is basically a mix of Shotokan and a few Shorin kata. Hardly "koryu."

 

[Martin h]

Ive know of Mr McCarthys recreated style that occationaly use the term Koryu karate to indicate that it tries to be what karate once was long ago, but in japan there are rules about who gets to term themself koryu. Rules that include verifiable lineage, paper trails to prove age of the established style since (3-400 years (or so, I dont have the exact age requirement handy -so I picked a number) and so on. It is part of the administration of their cultural history and heritage. You know you practice koryu if you learn how to defeat, or specialiced throw against, opponents wearing armour that went out of style in the 1600 century.
Karate, simply does not have the documents to qualify. Too many changes and crosstraining between the old masters, no established ryu´s old enough, no papertrails preserved.

However koryu is on occation used used as we would use "Oldschool", but not in any official capacity.

Regarding the karate of Bujinkan and Hatsumi. Ive heard of it from Bujinkan people. But it is only a matter of parallell evolution of a obscure term, and nothing to do with what is concidered karate today.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Koryu means old school, Karate means China hand
(although it can also be read as empty hand but this is the case for Karate schools from Okinawa).

The Koryu Karate system is mainly focused on Kijin Chosui Ryu Dakenjutsu and Tenshin Ryu Kenpo techniques which can be traced back to the Amatsu Tatara scrolls Tora no Maki and Ryu no Maki (Tiger and Dragon scrolls). It was the original intention of Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei to teach this system to the public (as Dankojutsu) which he could unfortunately not fulfill due to lack of time. Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei learned those Ryu-Ha from Grandmaster Kobayashi Masao (Hosho) Sensei and from Grandmaster Kimura Masaharu (Masaji) Sensei and also added Shizen Ryu Karate/Chinese Karate (from Grandmaster Sato Kinbei Sensei) to it.
Those Grandmasters received the teachings from Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei and from Grandmaster Ueno Takashi Sensei.

I have the video where Tanemura sensei demonstrate the Kijin Chosui-ryu. It doesn't looks like modern Karate (Shotokan etc) at all but yes it does involve lots lots of striking techniques. So, this is a Koryu style which does not came from Okinawa but rather developed in Japan. I am sure the confusion will not occur if Tanemura sensei uses the term Koryu Kenpo. I dont know why he uses the word "Karate". But it's his Ryuha and therefore his rights to call it whatever he wants & teach it however he feels fit.

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

The term 'judo' was used centuries before Kano, I believe--but just by one or two idiosyncratic schools. So, I can believe someone called something 'karate' but not that it was Karate as we think of it.

The original name of "Karate" was simply called "te" or Tode It was the masters of Shuri that were at that time calling the art " Te" or "Tode" Sakugawa used this term in honor of his teacher Peichin Takahara. Takahara was a master of the Okinawan version of Chuanfa.

"Tode" written in Kanji means "Chinese Hand" The same character is also used in Korean and pronunced as Tang Soo.

Bear in mind that the term "Karate" is not as old as we think. In fact karate from Okinawa is about 150 years olds. The kata practiced is about less than 100 years old. Hell, the uniform we wear is about 80 years old.


Hope this helps !

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

Karate, simply does not have the documents to qualify. Too many changes and crosstraining between the old masters, no established ryu´s old enough, no papertrails preserved.

Hi Martin !

Thought I could add a little fun fact.

The "Karate" in Shuri was practice in secret. We know this for a fact because Japan, under the penalty of death forbids any Okinawan to armed or practicing any martial arts training.

The Okinawan masters may not have built a library or DVD's :ultracool , but we can be sure of the fact that they kept "secret" notes on their training techniques.

It was the battle of Okinawa in 1945 that forever took much and destroyed many of these Masters notes on "Karate" .

In 1945 the US needed a strategic base to be used against Japan. Okinawa was the best choice for location. The japanese also believed that Okinawa was a great piece of property worth fighting for. The Japanese imperial army decided used the ancient and beautiful old Shuri castle as a headquarters.

It was the battleship "Missouri" who moved in closer to the shore and bombarded the ancient castle to dust. Every building in the Naha coastline as well as Shuri were also reduced to rubbles. Along the rubbles were the homes of many masters of okinawan karate that were gutted by fire along with all their possesions.

Sadly, this is probably why few of "traditional" Karates history is often at this point a "word" form mouth of the remaining survivors.

 

[arnisador]

Many if not most of the kata are older than 100 years--esp. the older Chinese ones--but most are not more than 200 years old, I'd wager.

 

[Ippon Ken]

唐手 (KARA TE) "Tang" or "Chinese" Hand. Typically used to classify martial arts systems arriving in Japan during or before the "Warring States" period.

空手 (KARA TE) "Empty Hand". Typically used as a catch all phrase for Okinawan martial arts systems.

There was a lot of animosity towards the Chinese in the early 1900's. THe Japanese have always had a superiority complex and although they adopted and identified Chinese religion and philosophy to a certain degree (as well as a superficial, simplified form of their "alphabet"), they began to think of the Chinese (and all non-Japanese "races") as inferior. Surely you know this fact. As a consequence Gichin Funakoshi, and before him, Chomo Hanashiro used the characters that signified the "empty hand" definition (the first characters you listed). Prior to this on Okinawa the Okinawans used the term "Toudi" which meant "Tang Hand". This was signified by the second kanji you listed. In fact that is the kanji used on my yudansha certificates (Tang Hand) to name the Okinawan MA I am ranked in.

I wouldn't doubt that some warring factions against the ruling Shogunate that were exiled, like the Satsuma Clan, learned some methods from Okinawa's Toudi Jutsu in exchange for teaching Shuri royal guards like Sokon Matsumura their system of kenjutsu (i.e.: Jigen Ryu).

Maybe folks like Chen Gempin who helped influence the grappling of JJJ by bringing the knowledge of certain Chuan Fa (Kempo) techniques to Japan, also influenced the atemi aspect of certaain Aikijutsu and JJ schools.

I would tend to believe that Toudi or Tang Hand which is what Okinawa Te was originally called became karate and Hatsumi Sensei adopted some karate principles and integrated them with the Bujinkan.

Anything is possible though. Who knows.

Just understand that the term and kanji for karate actually defined the Okinawan MA as "Tang Hand" until the Dai Nippon Butokukai adopted it as a true Japanese Budo. The change to the "Empty Hand" designation was made to please the Japanese governing body. That is the known history of Tang Hand.

 

[The Kai]

I would tend to believe that Toudi or Tang Hand which is what Okinawa Te was originally called became karate and Hatsumi Sensei adopted some karate principles and integrated them with the Bujinkan.


So then it would'nt, by definition, be KoRyu but a newer art

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I would tend to believe that Toudi or Tang Hand which is what Okinawa Te was originally called became karate and Hatsumi Sensei adopted some karate principles and integrated them with the Bujinkan.

Anything is possible though. Who knows.

True, anything is possible. I have seen Genbukan teachers demonstrating their "Koryu Karate", and it is not a modernized Okinawan Karate nor Jujutsu with Karate thrown in... From what I have seen, what is known in the Genbukan as "Koryu Karate" is more like a blend of two ancient Jujutsu Ryuha (Shinto Tenshin Ko-ryu Kenpo and Kijin Chosui-ryu Daken Taijutsu). I think Tanemura sensei called them "Koryu Karate" because it is written in the lineages of these two arts that these arts has influences from "China Hand" (Tang Hand), just like Kito-ryu was influenced by Chen Yuan Ping (Chin Genpin) or Shinto Yoshin-ryu was influenced by what Akiyama learned in China...

 

[Gene Williams]

Karate ain't koryu. Forget it. Ninjutsu isn't either. Quit trying to claim something to which you aren't entitled. I have trained traditional Okinawan karate for 35 years and I don't lose any sleep about not being considered koryu. The wannabee's have just learned a new word, "koryu," so they want to include it on their list of ridiculous claims. Get back to the dojo and train and quit worrying about whether your art is koryu. If you have to ask the question, you aren't koryu.

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

Many if not most of the kata are older than 100 years--esp. the older Chinese ones--but most are not more than 200 years old, I'd wager.

Can you list which Kata(s) you believe is more than a hundred years old ?

 

[arnisador]

One hundred years only takes you back to 1905. There are many kata that were practiced in the 1800s. When would Gichin Funakoshi have learned Karate, after all? For example, Sanchin is a variant of a Southern Chinese form of a fairly similar name (sam chien of, for example, Five Ancestor Fist kung-fu).

 

[Gene Williams]

There are Okinawan kata going back into the 1800's. Kushanku is one, Sanchin (in some form) is probably another. We can't be sure about some others. When you get into Chinese kata (which is where many Okinawan ones came from) there are some older. However, that does not make karate koryu.

 

[arnisador]

However, that does not make karate koryu.

Yes, I made that point in post #2 of this thread. The term koryu is for certain older arts that are from Japan, not Okinawa.