Koryu Karate

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Yes, I made that point in post #2 of this thread. The term koryu is for certain older arts that are from Japan, not Okinawa.

Yes. Indeed GM. Tanemura's Koryu Karate came from Japan, not Okinawa, as he describes in his website www.genbukan.org

 

[The Kai]

Gotta love the revisionist history

 

[George Kohler]

Looks like there is a lot of confusion about Koryu Karate.

The kanji for "Karate" is the same as "Tode" but just pronounced differently. It is not that same kanji as what is used these days like in Shotokan or Shito-ryu, which means "empty hand".

"Koryu Karate" is a mix of two schools; Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu). These two are japanese ryuha that can be found in the book Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, but have quite a bit of Chinese MA influence before the Meiji restoration. That is why Tanemura Sensei uses "Chinese hand" instead of "empty hand". It does not look like Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu, ect.

 

[Gene Williams]

There is no such thing as "koryu karate" except in some modern martial arts folks heads who, for some reason, feel they need that either for marketing purposes or to try and legitimize themselves. But, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and call it that.

 

[The Kai]

Marketing Ploy

 

[r erman]

You know, I'm not a part of the Genbukan, and I have no idea why Mr Tanemura is using the term koryu karate--aside form the fact that several of Takamatsu's documents described koppo systems as karate koppojutsu, thus emphasizing that they were a chinese import--but I have no clue as to why people think it is a marketing ploy.

With the overwhelming popularity of jujutsu right now that would seem to be the term to use as most people don't know the difference between modern sport 'jits' and classical japanese jujutsu. That and the label 'ninjutsu' would--and do--attract a lot more attention from a marketing standpoint than karate...

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Looks like there is a lot of confusion about Koryu Karate.

The kanji for "Karate" is the same as "Tode" but just pronounced differently. It is not that same kanji as what is used these days like in Shotokan or Shito-ryu, which means "empty hand".

"Koryu Karate" is a mix of two schools; Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu). These two are japanese ryuha that can be found in the book Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, but have quite a bit of Chinese MA influence before the Meiji restoration. That is why Tanemura Sensei uses "Chinese hand" instead of "empty hand". It does not look like Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu, ect.

George-san, I understand that the name "Koryu Karate" really strikes a nerve for some people, thus the "marketing ploy" accusations. Well, I guess not everybody had the privilege of experiencing the Kukishinden/Kijin Chosui-ryu Dakentaijutsu & understand that they are completely different with modern Karate

Now that we are in Kijin Chosui-ryu and Tenshin Ko-ryu Kenpo mode, I'd like to know more about the VCD/Videos that Tanemura sensei made about these two Ryuha.. are these VCDs shows all required Katas, or just a few Katas as an overview? I am very interested in seeing Ryuha techniques in action, and thinking of buying VCDs from Takagi, Kijin Chosui-ryu and Tenshin Ko-ryu Kenpo from the Genbukan site..

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

You know, I'm not a part of the Genbukan, and I have no idea why Mr Tanemura is using the term koryu karate--aside form the fact that several of Takamatsu's documents described koppo systems as karate koppojutsu, thus emphasizing that they were a chinese import--but I have no clue as to why people think it is a marketing ploy.

With the overwhelming popularity of jujutsu right now that would seem to be the term to use as most people don't know the difference between modern sport 'jits' and classical japanese jujutsu. That and the label 'ninjutsu' would--and do--attract a lot more attention from a marketing standpoint than karate...

Yes, that's true Mr. Erman, I tend to think that way as well

 

[arnisador]

"Koryu Karate" is a mix of two schools; Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu).

Are you saying that ko-ryu is the proper name of the style here, not a general adjective, as in the koryu arts of Japan?

 

[Gene Williams]

Looks like there is a lot of confusion about Koryu Karate.

The kanji for "Karate" is the same as "Tode" but just pronounced differently. It is not that same kanji as what is used these days like in Shotokan or Shito-ryu, which means "empty hand".

"Koryu Karate" is a mix of two schools; Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu). These two are japanese ryuha that can be found in the book Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, but have quite a bit of Chinese MA influence before the Meiji restoration. That is why Tanemura Sensei uses "Chinese hand" instead of "empty hand". It does not look like Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu, ect.

That is the most ridiculous nonsense I ever heard.

 

[RRouuselot]

Hey
I've heard about Koryu Karate. Supposedly a native japanese art, older than the okinwan importThoughts??

Can you tell us where you heard about this?
What was said about it?

 

[The Kai]

It's a ninjitsu thing

 

[RRouuselot]

It's a ninjitsu thing

That doesn’t explain much…..Can you expand on that a bit? Perhaps you can tell us where or from whom you heard about it....things like that.


Also, if it’s a Ninja thing then shouldn’t it be in their forum and not here…….

 

[The Kai]

Here's a link

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?koryu

The reasom i put it here was to see if there was any other schools of ancient japanese karate

 

[RRouuselot]

Here's a link

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?koryu

The reasom i put it here was to see if there was any other schools of ancient japanese karate

I just had a look at the website and the mpegs.

The guy obviously is trying to copy a few other arts, namely Chinese Kung Fu and Japanese Judo and claim it is some “ancient art” that only a few select people know.

His claims are doubtful at best.

Basically it’s a bunch of crap.
In the “Masters” section the guy named Sato Kinbei even states he studied Isshin ryu….as well as Ba Gua.

 

[JAMJTX]

Thw only way you can consider "karate" to be ancient or "koryu" is if you apply the term according to age of the parent arts. But still that would be nothing but a marketing ploy.

As for what the Genbukan is teaching I can speak from experience. A fried took her kids and signed them up for classes. They were told they were learning "Ninjutsu". It looked to me like a combination of Tae Kwon Do and some basic Judo.

As for Ninjutsu, there is such an ancient art, it's just not what salesman like Hatsumi, Hayes and the Genbukan folks say that it is. Ninjutsu is/was a surveilence art which would include camoflage, etc. It was taught as part of ancient military arts. I believe it is still part of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. Other than that, Ninjutsu is just a code word for McDojo, as is "Koryu Karate".

 

[Blindside]

Other than that, Ninjutsu is just a code word for McDojo, as is "Koryu Karate".

*Gets popcorn and a soda, gets prepared to watch the flamewar.*

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

In the “Masters” section the guy named Sato Kinbei even states he studied Isshin ryu….as well as Ba Gua.

From what I know, Sato Kinbei did not study the Isshin-ryu karate of Okinawa (Shimabukuro style), but he studied an older Koryu Jujutsu system with the same name (Isshin-ryu Jujutsu) from Onno Soukichi, who learned from Satsuma Katsusuke. Sato sensei's Bagua Zhang training came from Li Zi Ming sensei. Please visit www.jujutsu.com (Sato Kinbei sensei's website) for more info.

 

[George Kohler]

That is the most ridiculous nonsense I ever heard.

Gene,

I'm not sure which part of my post is ridiculous.

"Koryu Karate" is the name of a system that Tanemura Sensei has put together from several schools. This has nothing to do with Ninpo/Ninjutsu. Those schools are:

Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu (aka Kijin Chosui-ryu)
Shindo Tenshin-ryu kenpo (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu)

Now, if you think that the above ryuha are ridiculous maybe you need to do some research as to who actually has studied one of these schools. I'll give some examples.

Who studied Shindo Tenshin-ryu kenpo:
Mabuni Kenwa (hey Gene, don't you study Shito-ryu?)
Sakagami Ryusho (Shito-ryu fame)
Fujitani Masatoshi (Shito-ryu)
Fujita Isamu (Fujita Seiko)

Would you tell the people above that the school they studied was ridiculous?

 

[George Kohler]

Test. Having issues posting.