jujutsu_indonesia
Black Belt
Yes. Indeed GM. Tanemura's Koryu Karate came from Japan, not Okinawa, as he describes in his website www.genbukan.orgarnisador said:
Koryu Karate
- Thread starter The Kai
- Start date
George Kohler
Green Belt
Looks like there is a lot of confusion about Koryu Karate.
The kanji for "Karate" is the same as "Tode" but just pronounced differently. It is not that same kanji as what is used these days like in Shotokan or Shito-ryu, which means "empty hand".
"Koryu Karate" is a mix of two schools; Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu). These two are japanese ryuha that can be found in the book Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, but have quite a bit of Chinese MA influence before the Meiji restoration. That is why Tanemura Sensei uses "Chinese hand" instead of "empty hand". It does not look like Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu, ect.
The kanji for "Karate" is the same as "Tode" but just pronounced differently. It is not that same kanji as what is used these days like in Shotokan or Shito-ryu, which means "empty hand".
"Koryu Karate" is a mix of two schools; Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu). These two are japanese ryuha that can be found in the book Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, but have quite a bit of Chinese MA influence before the Meiji restoration. That is why Tanemura Sensei uses "Chinese hand" instead of "empty hand". It does not look like Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu, ect.
Gene Williams
Green Belt
There is no such thing as "koryu karate" except in some modern martial arts folks heads who, for some reason, feel they need that either for marketing purposes or to try and legitimize themselves. But, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and call it that.
You know, I'm not a part of the Genbukan, and I have no idea why Mr Tanemura is using the term koryu karate--aside form the fact that several of Takamatsu's documents described koppo systems as karate koppojutsu, thus emphasizing that they were a chinese import--but I have no clue as to why people think it is a marketing ploy.
With the overwhelming popularity of jujutsu right now that would seem to be the term to use as most people don't know the difference between modern sport 'jits' and classical japanese jujutsu. That and the label 'ninjutsu' would--and do--attract a lot more attention from a marketing standpoint than karate...
With the overwhelming popularity of jujutsu right now that would seem to be the term to use as most people don't know the difference between modern sport 'jits' and classical japanese jujutsu. That and the label 'ninjutsu' would--and do--attract a lot more attention from a marketing standpoint than karate...
jujutsu_indonesia
Black Belt
George-san, I understand that the name "Koryu Karate" really strikes a nerve for some people, thus the "marketing ploy" accusations. Well, I guess not everybody had the privilege of experiencing the Kukishinden/Kijin Chosui-ryu Dakentaijutsu & understand that they are completely different with modern KarateGeorge Kohler said:
Now that we are in Kijin Chosui-ryu and Tenshin Ko-ryu Kenpo mode, I'd like to know more about the VCD/Videos that Tanemura sensei made about these two Ryuha.. are these VCDs shows all required Katas, or just a few Katas as an overview? I am very interested in seeing Ryuha techniques in action, and thinking of buying VCDs from Takagi, Kijin Chosui-ryu and Tenshin Ko-ryu Kenpo from the Genbukan site..
jujutsu_indonesia
Black Belt
Yes, that's true Mr. Erman, I tend to think that way as wellr erman said:
Gene Williams
Green Belt
That is the most ridiculous nonsense I ever heard.George Kohler said:
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Can you tell us where you heard about this?The Kai said:
What was said about it?
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
That doesnÂ’t explain muchÂ…..Can you expand on that a bit? Perhaps you can tell us where or from whom you heard about it....things like that.The Kai said:
Also, if itÂ’s a Ninja thing then shouldnÂ’t it be in their forum and not hereÂ…Â….
OP
OP
The Kai
Master of Arts
Here's a link
http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?koryu
The reasom i put it here was to see if there was any other schools of ancient japanese karate
http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?koryu
The reasom i put it here was to see if there was any other schools of ancient japanese karate
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
I just had a look at the website and the mpegs.The Kai said:
The guy obviously is trying to copy a few other arts, namely Chinese Kung Fu and Japanese Judo and claim it is some “ancient art” that only a few select people know.
His claims are doubtful at best.
Basically itÂ’s a bunch of crap.
In the “Masters” section the guy named Sato Kinbei even states he studied Isshin ryu….as well as Ba Gua.
Thw only way you can consider "karate" to be ancient or "koryu" is if you apply the term according to age of the parent arts. But still that would be nothing but a marketing ploy.
As for what the Genbukan is teaching I can speak from experience. A fried took her kids and signed them up for classes. They were told they were learning "Ninjutsu". It looked to me like a combination of Tae Kwon Do and some basic Judo.
As for Ninjutsu, there is such an ancient art, it's just not what salesman like Hatsumi, Hayes and the Genbukan folks say that it is. Ninjutsu is/was a surveilence art which would include camoflage, etc. It was taught as part of ancient military arts. I believe it is still part of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. Other than that, Ninjutsu is just a code word for McDojo, as is "Koryu Karate".
As for what the Genbukan is teaching I can speak from experience. A fried took her kids and signed them up for classes. They were told they were learning "Ninjutsu". It looked to me like a combination of Tae Kwon Do and some basic Judo.
As for Ninjutsu, there is such an ancient art, it's just not what salesman like Hatsumi, Hayes and the Genbukan folks say that it is. Ninjutsu is/was a surveilence art which would include camoflage, etc. It was taught as part of ancient military arts. I believe it is still part of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. Other than that, Ninjutsu is just a code word for McDojo, as is "Koryu Karate".
jujutsu_indonesia
Black Belt
From what I know, Sato Kinbei did not study the Isshin-ryu karate of Okinawa (Shimabukuro style), but he studied an older Koryu Jujutsu system with the same name (Isshin-ryu Jujutsu) from Onno Soukichi, who learned from Satsuma Katsusuke. Sato sensei's Bagua Zhang training came from Li Zi Ming sensei. Please visit www.jujutsu.com (Sato Kinbei sensei's website) for more info.RRouuselot said:
George Kohler
Green Belt
Gene Williams said:
Gene,
I'm not sure which part of my post is ridiculous.
"Koryu Karate" is the name of a system that Tanemura Sensei has put together from several schools. This has nothing to do with Ninpo/Ninjutsu. Those schools are:
Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu (aka Kijin Chosui-ryu)
Shindo Tenshin-ryu kenpo (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu)
Now, if you think that the above ryuha are ridiculous maybe you need to do some research as to who actually has studied one of these schools. I'll give some examples.
Who studied Shindo Tenshin-ryu kenpo:
Mabuni Kenwa (hey Gene, don't you study Shito-ryu?)
Sakagami Ryusho (Shito-ryu fame)
Fujitani Masatoshi (Shito-ryu)
Fujita Isamu (Fujita Seiko)
Would you tell the people above that the school they studied was ridiculous?
George Kohler
Green Belt
Test. Having issues posting.
