Koryu Karate

[The Kai]

Hey
I've heard about Koryu Karate. Supposedly a native japanese art, older than the okinwan importThoughts??

 

[arnisador]

I think koryu is a general term referring to classical JMA (not Karate). Try www.koryu.com which is a good reference site.

 

[The Kai]

No, this is specifically a "karate" type art

 

[Andrew Green]

Karate is Okinawan, Not Japanese.

Prior to importing it from Okinawa in the early 1900's there was no Karate in Japan.

"History" is one of those things that is always changing

 

[TimoS]

Here's a possible explanation. Some instructors here in Finland call what they teach koryu karate, but they don't mean it as a separate style, rather a way of practising karate. Here's a loose translation (by me) from the web page of one such group (they're doing Wado ryu karate):

Koryu-karate

The koryu karate practised in our club is not a separate karate style, rather it is way of practising karate. Koryu karate means 19th century Okinawan approach to karate. Back then karate was known as Tode-jutsu, chinese hand art.

Nowadays sporting aspects have been added to karate and the training assumes a situation where two karateka fight each other trying to score points with karate specific techniques. In koryu karate our approach is mainly self-defence and the technique "arsenal" contains e.g. strikes to opponents unprotected areas (kyosho), techniques for controlling the opponent and grappling.

A natural part of koryu karate is the holistic development of practitioners through the practise of karate. The Do aspect of budo can be seen in our club in the weekly zen exercises aimed at our club members

Another possible explanation came when I was searching for that information with google: it is part of Genbukan (look e.g. here)

Koryu means old school, Karate means China hand
(although it can also be read as empty hand but this is the case for Karate schools from Okinawa).

The Koryu Karate system is mainly focused on Kijin Chosui Ryu Dakenjutsu and Tenshin Ryu Kenpo techniques which can be traced back to the Amatsu Tatara scrolls Tora no Maki and Ryu no Maki (Tiger and Dragon scrolls). It was the original intention of Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei to teach this system to the public (as Dankojutsu) which he could unfortunately not fulfill due to lack of time. Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei learned those Ryu-Ha from Grandmaster Kobayashi Masao (Hosho) Sensei and from Grandmaster Kimura Masaharu (Masaji) Sensei and also added Shizen Ryu Karate/Chinese Karate (from Grandmaster Sato Kinbei Sensei) to it.
Those Grandmasters received the teachings from Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei and from Grandmaster Ueno Takashi Sensei.

 

[The Kai]

It's the second one that I am talking about. is there any validity behind these claims??

 

[TimoS]

It's the second one that I am talking about. is there any validity behind these claims??

Don't know, never seen it, but it would be interesting to know. Tanemura himself is a highly respected martial artist, so I think there must be something there

 

[The Kai]

I was wondering if there were any other sources for the idea of a Karate art existing on japan before the introduction from okinwan

 

[eyebeams]

I was wondering if there were any other sources for the idea of a Karate art existing on japan before the introduction from okinwan

Hatsumi regularly referred to koppojutsu as karate in his books (usually using both terms together), but not in a way intended to imply a connection with Okinawan martial arts.

 

[The Kai]

But, yet it is referred to as Koryu Karate

 

[TimoS]

But, yet it is referred to as Koryu Karate

True, but the "kara" in this case means "China", not "empty".

I checked with a Bujinkan guy about this and what he said is that, while they don't have this specific style, they have something that this is based on, Hontai Kijin Chôsui Ryû Kukishin Ryû Dakentaijutsu. According to him, in Bujinkan at least, these techniques are based on unarmed combat by samurai in armor. It contains kicks, punches, throws, counterthrows, etc.

He also said that the "china hand" rendering of karate was used by some legendary ninja leader in 16th century (Iga-ryû Karate).

 

[The Kai]

:bs:

 

[TimoS]

:bs:

That's a bit harsh. You could ask the same question over in ninjutsu, see what they think

 

[arnisador]

The term 'judo' was used centuries before Kano, I believe--but just by one or two idiosyncratic schools. So, I can believe someone called something 'karate' but not that it was Karate as we think of it.

 

[Kizaru]

:bs:

Hi there!

On the left wall of the entry way to the Bujinkan Honbu dojo in Japan is a framed piece of paper stating the "intention" of ninpo. The signature line reads "Sandayu Momochi, Koto ryu Karate Koppojutsu Soke". Sandayu Momochi was known to be the head of a particular Iga ryu ninjutsu tradition, as well as rumored to be the head of a Koga tradition. In this case, the "Kara" is written with the character for "Tang" as in "the Chinese Tang Dynasty"; which is when Koto ryu was said to have been brought to Japan. If you search on Martial Talk under "Bugei ryuha Daijiten" you should be able to find some translations I did with related information.

There are other koryu in Japan that trace their roots to "Karate" with the "kara" being the character for "Tang" (rather than the popular Okinawan writting style where the character for "empty" is used).

As someone else in this thread mentioned, the term "judo" was also used before Kano Jigoro decided to use it, and, there is a koryu being practiced today known as "Takeda ryu Aikido" that is completely unrelated to Ueshiba's modern Aikido.

All the best,

Richard Maloof

 

[YouAgain]

Koryu Uchinadi by Patrick McCarthy

 

[Andrew Green]

= Okinawan in inspiration, not Japanese

 

[The Kai]

Hi there!

On the left wall of the entry way to the Bujinkan Honbu dojo in Japan is a framed piece of paper stating the "intention" of ninpo. The signature line reads "Sandayu Momochi, Koto ryu Karate Koppojutsu Soke". Sandayu Momochi was known to be the head of a particular Iga ryu ninjutsu tradition, as well as rumored to be the head of a Koga tradition. In this case, the "Kara" is written with the character for "Tang" as in "the Chinese Tang Dynasty"; which is when Koto ryu was said to have been brought to Japan. If you search on Martial Talk under "Bugei ryuha Daijiten" you should be able to find some translations I did with related information.

There are other koryu in Japan that trace their roots to "Karate" with the "kara" being the character for "Tang" (rather than the popular Okinawan writting style where the character for "empty" is used).

As someone else in this thread mentioned, the term "judo" was also used before Kano Jigoro decided to use it, and, there is a koryu being practiced today known as "Takeda ryu Aikido" that is completely unrelated to Ueshiba's modern Aikido.

All the best,

Richard Maloof

Actuaaly doing a quick search on the Takeda ryu, turns out Takeda is the original namer of daito ryu. There is a lineage and historical connection to the roots of Aikido-why the name is streamlined I don't know

Hatsumi regularly referred to koppojutsu as karate in his books (usually using both terms together), but not in a way intended to imply a connection with Okinawan martial arts

Once you use the Karate term aren't you automatically in reference to Okinwan rooted systems. Since japan was closed during the devolpmental time period of Karate, allthough I am sure that they punched each other it was not systemized

If I pick up an escrima stick and fence with it can I now say I teach escrima (fencing), never mind the implication that there is a methology that I am unaware of, but I am fencing right?

 

[TimoS]

Once you use the Karate term aren't you automatically in reference to Okinwan rooted systems.

Not necessarily. If a japanese koryu had roots in chinese arts, then I don't see why they wouldn't have called it karate (with the kanji for China). It doesn't have to have any connection to Okinawan arts. People just assume when hear karate that it is the originally okinawan martial art. They just assume wrong Before this thread I was one of those people, so live and learn

 

[The Kai]

Outside of references to karate by hatsumi-did it exist??