Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan
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Oh my. Mr. Nagamine's book, "The essence of Okinawan Karate do" . Mr. Nagamine says he created Fyukyukata ichi and that Miyagi created Fyukyukata ni. My bo instr. was a rokudan in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu. He taught me fyukyukata ichi and ni. My karate instructor used to be one of the biggies in Hayashi Ha and we did Ten no kata and Chi no kata. My wife did Goju with Gosei Yamaguchi. Didn't take a lot of horsepower to compare the various kata and reach the conclusion that fyukyukata 1 = Ten no kata. Fyukyukata 2 = chi no kata = gekisai dai ichi.Navarre said:
Nothing wrong in my book with Mr. Madden taking a kata or katas from other systems and incorporating them into his syllabus. Rob
Navarre
Master Black Belt
Ouch, Rob. Your explanation gave me a migraine. lol Thanks for clarifying though. I didn't doubt the legitimacy of your information but, as it is more than I previously knew, I was curious as to the source.
I don't think there's anything wrong with taking any element that works and using in one's system. I suppose some purists may disagree however.
I was once considering joining a local kung fu school. I was told that I could not attend because I had studied a previous system and held a black belt. They said their sifu's techniques were copyrighted and confidential to their system.
Apparently he finally mastered jumping over clouds or teleportation or something. Can't say I understood how any technique could be so incredibly innovative that no one had figured it out in the 2000 years before this guy. ... I never bothered with them after that.
I don't think there's anything wrong with taking any element that works and using in one's system. I suppose some purists may disagree however.
I was once considering joining a local kung fu school. I was told that I could not attend because I had studied a previous system and held a black belt. They said their sifu's techniques were copyrighted and confidential to their system.
Apparently he finally mastered jumping over clouds or teleportation or something. Can't say I understood how any technique could be so incredibly innovative that no one had figured it out in the 2000 years before this guy. ... I never bothered with them after that.
OP
OP
Indeed, thank you for the clarification. It is immensely helpful to me that you included the texts this information is from. I could take the time to scour the shelves, pouring over every karate text I can find in order to better understand may art; but, honestly, such pointers save an enormous amount of time.
Again, Thank you.
Again, Thank you.
Navarre
Master Black Belt
That is a great site for sure. Thanks!
Hey, Egg, on a different thread I mentioned a move that I didn't understand at first. You can see it on the Pinan Sandan video at 17 seconds into the clip. Looking at it now it looks rather obvious but when I was a green belt I just scratched my head and followed directions.
I wouldn't worry about viewing the katas either. I doubt you're going to use this as your primary learning source. Also, although the first 2 Ko Sutemi katas are identical as I learned them, there is more and more deviation in the upper katas.
This may be only a product of my own training, far removed as we were from direct contact with Mr. Madden back in those days. However, it is indeed a different system so they may have been changed up bit.
Perhaps yet another offense to kata purists, I don't know, especially considering the katas history. Still, even though this site seems thorough, I can't say for sure that Sensei Shindt is himself doing the kata exactly the same as it was done in 1683.
Still a great site though. Thanks, Kosokun.
Hey, Egg, on a different thread I mentioned a move that I didn't understand at first. You can see it on the Pinan Sandan video at 17 seconds into the clip. Looking at it now it looks rather obvious but when I was a green belt I just scratched my head and followed directions.
I wouldn't worry about viewing the katas either. I doubt you're going to use this as your primary learning source. Also, although the first 2 Ko Sutemi katas are identical as I learned them, there is more and more deviation in the upper katas.
This may be only a product of my own training, far removed as we were from direct contact with Mr. Madden back in those days. However, it is indeed a different system so they may have been changed up bit.
Perhaps yet another offense to kata purists, I don't know, especially considering the katas history. Still, even though this site seems thorough, I can't say for sure that Sensei Shindt is himself doing the kata exactly the same as it was done in 1683.
Still a great site though. Thanks, Kosokun.
Gene Williams
Green Belt
Well Egg,
You seem to be a little defensive about the kata thing, and you seem to understand that there are traditional ryu that these kata came from. You are training in yet another derivative style which mixes and matches to suit the "founder's" tastes. I don't know what causes people to run off and start their own "style," but it is a real problem in this country. I can understand starting a kai, an organization within which Shito ryu, Shotokan, or Goju, for instance, is taught. This happens for political reasons, sometimes a Soke (a real one, not some Western wannabee) will authorize or give his blessing to something like that. But, the karate within a kai like that is still the original ryu. But, this business of mixing and matching kata (and usually inflating one's lineage or "expanding" on the truth of one's background) is like a bunch of kids playing with Lego's in their play room..."let's see what I can make if I do this..." I just don't see much point in it EXCEPT ...ego...TAH-DAH!!!
I'm sure that Rob or I could come up with plenty of justification for starting our own ryu (far more than most mentioned in these forums). We have menkyo (lots of 'em) from Japanese or Okinawan guys, we have trained for years in orthodox ryu, we know a little Japanese and can write a few kanji (Rob may know more than me), we have trained in weapons, iaido, etc. Why, Hell, I'm sure we both have enough imagination to stretch the seminars we've been to under well known Japanese/Okinawan "masters" into "training with" them (implying, of course that we were some kind of live-in student for years). AND, Rob and I can really do the kata...I mean, like, we actually train a lot. So, all that and competence, too. WOW! I can just see my Soke certificate on the wall now! (Rob, if you are reading this, send me 500 dollars and I'll mail you your Soke diploma. Do you want to be 9th or 10th dan?) But, we don't do that, we don't make those claims.
Now, Egg (and others) why do you suppose it is that Rob and I and many others out there with more skill and knowledge than us don't do that? Is it because we are less skilled? Have less training? Not as bright? What is the reason....let me see, hmmmmm...DAMN, I just can't figure...oh. well, it must be some stupid reason like honesty or integrity or respect for the tradition. How silly of me...
Why don't you find a real ryu and a real sensei and just be good friends with Mr. Madden? You all could still have a beer together once in a while.
You seem to be a little defensive about the kata thing, and you seem to understand that there are traditional ryu that these kata came from. You are training in yet another derivative style which mixes and matches to suit the "founder's" tastes. I don't know what causes people to run off and start their own "style," but it is a real problem in this country. I can understand starting a kai, an organization within which Shito ryu, Shotokan, or Goju, for instance, is taught. This happens for political reasons, sometimes a Soke (a real one, not some Western wannabee) will authorize or give his blessing to something like that. But, the karate within a kai like that is still the original ryu. But, this business of mixing and matching kata (and usually inflating one's lineage or "expanding" on the truth of one's background) is like a bunch of kids playing with Lego's in their play room..."let's see what I can make if I do this..." I just don't see much point in it EXCEPT ...ego...TAH-DAH!!!
I'm sure that Rob or I could come up with plenty of justification for starting our own ryu (far more than most mentioned in these forums). We have menkyo (lots of 'em) from Japanese or Okinawan guys, we have trained for years in orthodox ryu, we know a little Japanese and can write a few kanji (Rob may know more than me), we have trained in weapons, iaido, etc. Why, Hell, I'm sure we both have enough imagination to stretch the seminars we've been to under well known Japanese/Okinawan "masters" into "training with" them (implying, of course that we were some kind of live-in student for years). AND, Rob and I can really do the kata...I mean, like, we actually train a lot. So, all that and competence, too. WOW! I can just see my Soke certificate on the wall now! (Rob, if you are reading this, send me 500 dollars and I'll mail you your Soke diploma. Do you want to be 9th or 10th dan?) But, we don't do that, we don't make those claims.
Now, Egg (and others) why do you suppose it is that Rob and I and many others out there with more skill and knowledge than us don't do that? Is it because we are less skilled? Have less training? Not as bright? What is the reason....let me see, hmmmmm...DAMN, I just can't figure...oh. well, it must be some stupid reason like honesty or integrity or respect for the tradition. How silly of me...
Why don't you find a real ryu and a real sensei and just be good friends with Mr. Madden? You all could still have a beer together once in a while.
Gene Williams
Green Belt
I wasn't discussing the history of karate.
OP
OP
Gene Williams said:
Indeed you were not.
I am all for discussion of Seieikan and it's differences/similarities with traditional arts; but, I would not consider such aggressive commentary to be discussion. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by this bootless flaming.
Thank you.
Gene Williams
Green Belt
I don't see that as flaming. It was a pretty straight forward statement with some examples that were not much of a stretch. A little sarcasm is a literary technique designed to highlight a point. Now, if I had said that you are hooked up with twits...THAT would have been flaming.
Gene Williams
Green Belt
So, why don't you respond to what I wrote instead of pretending to be injured?
OP
OP
Navarre said:
I don't expect this or any other art is going to remain unchanged for that length of time. If things do not grow, they falter and fade.
On another point, Sensei Phillips does not require us to join the AKJU in order to train with him. That's an option I plan to take on beginning in January. We have an AKJU tourney coming up in Dec, as well, which I plan to attend. This has been a thin week for training. Birthdays and church band and kid's activities. I've been able to train some on my own; but, I sure notice the absence of training in the dojo.
Navarre
Master Black Belt
OnlyAnEgg said:
Regardless of rank or experience, working out alone is never as beneficial as dojo training. It's certainly never as interesting. But you'll be back on the floor in no time.
I agree with you that anyone who believes an art will remain truly unchanged over centuries is fooling themselves. Although the advent of video and other recordable media makes the situation much better, there is inevitably going to be some variance in translation between people over the course of time.
I would certainly prefer to work on the exact kata created centuries before. However, it is more important to me that the intention, perspective, and integrity of the techniques therein is what's preserved.
It was good to see these katas performed by a skilled practioner from a different system. Do you find that Sensei Shindt changes the level of his movement, meaning more vertical change up and down when moving, than what you're being taught?
OP
OP
Navarre said:
I haven't had the opportunity to view all the kata; but, without a doubt; at least, within the first three kata a steady head heighth is emphasized. Danny has us attempt to maintain a level head while practicing basic kata. He teaches (at my level) that head, shoulder and arm movement are a dead giveaway to your opponent and should, therefore, be minimized or eliminated.
Beyond the Fukyugata, I cannot say with any certainty. We have done Pinan Shodan once in class. The video at Sensei Sindt's page seems the same, though I do not recall the changes in stance in the latter half, especially, of the form.
OnlyAnEgg said:
I've not seen Coach Madden's Pinans, but you may want to take a look at the Heian kata on www.Shitokai.com
Heian is the Japanese pronunciation for the kanji used in Pinan. Pinan is the Okinawan dialect's pronunciation. So, Heian = Pinan.
Rob
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
Gene Williams said:
so .....let me get this straight.....if an okinawan guy runs off and starts his own style based on anothers teaching......thats A-OK in your book. but if a white guy does it, he doesnt know a god damned thing?
so....you've studied hard, taken your vitamins and said your prayers. you can brush a few kanji and perform some kata.
does this mean you can act like an a**hole anytime you want too?
Navarre
Master Black Belt
BlackCatBonz, the answer unfortunately seems to be "yes", at least in his mind. I'm honestly just going to ignore the whole thing. it isn't the least bit productive or respectful and deserve no further commentary. Thanks for stepping up though.
Egg, we were also taught to maintain consistent shoulder/head level. The eye notices vertical movement much easier than lateral movement. Changes of height are telegraphing a change in position.
Consequently, in my stances I set just slightly low. Not much just a tad. It allows me to create a stronger drive into my opponent while still maintaining balance, shoulder level, and freedom to change angles if need be.
This would seem to be a component of Seiei Kan that is slightly different than that of Shorin Ryu. And, I daresay, one could analyze either principle with equal validity regardless of where it came from.
Egg, we were also taught to maintain consistent shoulder/head level. The eye notices vertical movement much easier than lateral movement. Changes of height are telegraphing a change in position.
Consequently, in my stances I set just slightly low. Not much just a tad. It allows me to create a stronger drive into my opponent while still maintaining balance, shoulder level, and freedom to change angles if need be.
This would seem to be a component of Seiei Kan that is slightly different than that of Shorin Ryu. And, I daresay, one could analyze either principle with equal validity regardless of where it came from.
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