Kim Jong Il Reported Dead

[Tez3]

Why was there a war in Korea? Because of some people's fear of communism, why was there a war in Vietnam? because of some people's fear of communism. It's about time it was faced up to that actions on the part of our previous governments have lead to situations we have now. America divided up Korea after the war taking half while the Russians took the other half..by what right was this done? America occupied one half just as much as the russians did the other, why couldn't the country have been given back to the Koreans, why did you insist on having your half, becuse you were scared of communism. America still occupies the south to all intent and purpose under the guise of protecting them from the monster created when the country was divided up, you allowed the North to become what it is every bit as much as the dictators there. Now you want to bomb it? Take responsibility not bombs.

 

[elder999]

. First, WE ARE STILL AT WAR. We do not need Congressional approval, we do not need a UN declaration, nothing. We are at war. .

Only sort of kind of. We never really were "at war." Truman called it a "police action," and it was under the aegis of the U.N.

More to the point, there being no formal treaty to end the war makes the U.S. at war with North Korea the way Japan is still at war with Russia.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Why was there a war in Korea? Because of some people's fear of communism, why was there a war in Vietnam? because of some people's fear of communism. It's about time it was faced up to that actions on the part of our previous governments have lead to situations we have now. America divided up Korea after the war taking half while the Russians took the other half..by what right was this done?

By right of conquest. We won, they didn't. But I wasn't alive then, so no one asked me for my opinion.

America occupied one half just as much as the russians did the other, why couldn't the country have been given back to the Koreans, why did you insist on having your half, becuse you were scared of communism.

South Korea is an independent nation. We do not 'occupy' it. I think the South Koreans might take exception to the notion that the USA owns, runs, or 'occupies' South Korea.

America still occupies the south to all intent and purpose under the guise of protecting them from the monster created when the country was divided up, you allowed the North to become what it is every bit as much as the dictators there. Now you want to bomb it? Take responsibility not bombs.

Can't change what happened, I can only change what it. If by 'taking responsibility' you mean stand by while North Korea continues to build and test long-range missiles and nuclear weapons until one fine day they nuke us, then no. With all due respect, you know where you can shove that. I don't care if it's the USA's personal fault that every sin since Adam was committed, if 'taking responsibility' means letting us be destroyed, then no, nyet, never, nada, nope, and wrong-o, comrade.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Only sort of kind of. We never really were "at war." Truman called it a "police action," and it was under the aegis of the U.N.

More to the point, there being no formal treaty to end the war makes the U.S. at war with North Korea the way Japan is still at war with Russia.

Works for me. Besides, I SAID THAT. But whatever, we're at 'police action'. No need to seek permission from anyone. End the threat now.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I believe it quite seriously. I am a conservative and favor peace over war, but not peace at any cost. North Korea is a clear and present danger; far more than Iraq was when we invaded it.

Consider the alternatives...

Do nothing - North Korea implodes through internal military strife over succession, or at the very least becomes very unstable for a very long time. Nuclear weapons available, like Libya's arsenals are even now being looted by terrorists and those who would sell to them; difference is, NK has nukes, biological, and chemical weapons of mass destruction; demonstrated capability via their nuclear detonations. This is not make-um-up Iraq WMD, this is the real thing.

Do nothing - North Korea gets a new leader, and he continues building up their nukes because it is their only real bargaining chip. Military supports him because with this structure, they eat, they get paid, they live well, while the rest of the country (the 99%?) are literally and not figuratively starving to death.

Do nothing - North Korea gets a new leader who decides to negotiate in good faith for peaceful change, including real (this time, unlike 100's of times before) nuclear disarmament and inspection, open borders, free trade, and so on.

Can you think of any other alternatives? If the three above are the basic three possible outcomes to doing nothing, then I strongly advocate attack. First, WE ARE STILL AT WAR. We do not need Congressional approval, we do not need a UN declaration, nothing. We are at war. Second, NK has never honored one of it's agreements with the rest of the world; not one. They practice brinksmanship; that's their game. And it's worked for them. I have a hard time believing they are about to turn over a new leaf. They didn't when the fat dead guy took over from his fat dead guy dad. And third, if we do nothing and they continue to build nukes and sell nuclear technology and weapons to terrorists and rogue nations, one day the USA or the UK will be nuked by one of their bombs. Unacceptable, period. Nuke them now; remove the fangs. End the war. Bring the troops home. Open the borders so their starving millions can be fed. Time to put this nonsense behind us forever. I'm not up for another generation of bat*****crazy lunatics kidnapping movie directors to make personal Godzilla movies (yes, he did that) and selling nuclear technology to Iran. Screw that. End it today.

Bill, if you are actually serious here you appear to have a complete lack of understanding and knowledge of the situation as it involved the US, North and South Korea and China and to be honest I am not going to waste anymore time here attempting to educate you on the subject since you likely already believe you know all there is to know about it already and would not agree with anything I said.... have fun storming the castle

 

[elder999]

Works for me. Besides, I SAID THAT. But whatever, we're at 'police action'. No need to seek permission from anyone. End the threat now.

I think the threat is somewhat exagerrated by general ignorance, Bill. North Korea's nuclear weapons are, for the time being, probably not deliverable-even if they had a delivery system capable of threatening more of us than Alaska and northern California, their weapon(s) would probably best be delivered by Allied Van Lines.Seriously. Here's what the first hydrogen bomb looked like:



While North Korea's tests are widely perceived by laymen, the military and the rest of the world at large as evidence that "North Korea has nukes," the truth is likely way more subtle. Ivy Mike up there amply demonstrates the difference between testing a "nuclear device" and deploying a "nuclear weapon" -note the fellow seated in the lawn-chair.North Korea's two tests, in 2006 and 2009, show us that North Korea's nuclear program is struggling, just as it was when I went there in 1994, and not that they have an actual working weapons program.They are a credible threat for giving terrorists access to nuclear material, possibly even including a weapon, but otherwise probably not so much-especially to us. Best position for us on this is "wait and see." There's no telling what the son will be like, or even if he'll really run the place.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, if you are actually serious here you appear to have a completelack of understanding and knowledge of the situation as it involved the US,North and South Korea and China and to be honest I am not going to waste anymore time here attempting to educating you since you will likely believe youknow all about it already and would not agree with anything I said.... have funstorming the castle

What you mean is, you can't think of a response to my basic, solid, logic. No problem. Come back when you want some more.

I don't 'know it all' about much of anything, but I know that things either continue as they have been, or they change. Simple.

If they continue as they have been, sooner or later we have to face the possibility of being nuked by North Korea. They have never stopped to date - they built their reactor, they built their enrichment program, they built nuclear weapons, and they set them off to prove it. Need any more proof that they keep increasing their ability to wage nuclear war?

If there is to be change, there are two options. We take action to force that change, or they do it on their own, voluntarily. Given their history of going back on their words, practicing brinkmanship, outright lying, and back-tracking, which of the two is most likely to be successful? Forcing a change by removing that snake's fangs, or getting on our knees and giving Un a slobber job?

This is not difficult stuff. Israel bombed a Syrian nuclear plant a few years back. A North Korean designed and built nuclear plant. Full of North Koreans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13530945

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/150849#.Tu-HbTjEh8I

The Asian country has helped arm Syria, Libya and Egypt with missile technology and is closely involved with Iran’s nuclear development. Israel learned of the Syrian nuclear facility built with North Korea’s help and is believed to have bombed it in September 2007, killing 10 North Korean nuclear scientists.

That's a threat to all of us. We have an opportunity, a golden opportunity, to put an end to this madness once and for all.

So I think we should.

Tell me what it is I don't understand.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think the threat is somewhat exagerrated by general ignorance, Bill. North Korea's nuclear weapons are, for the time being, probably not deliverable-even if they had a delivery system capable of threatening more of us than Alaska and northern California, their weapon(s) would probably best be delivered by Allied Van Lines.Seriously. Here's what the first hydrogen bomb looked like:

http://38north.org/2010/11/giving-north-korea-the-bomb/ivymikedevb640c20/


While North Korea's tests are widely perceived by laymen, the military and the rest of the world at large as evidence that "North Korea has nukes," the truth is likely way more subtle. Ivory Mike up there amply demonstrates the difference between testing a "nuclear device" and deploying a "nuclear weapon" -note the fellow seated in the lawn-chair.North Korea's two tests, in 2006 and 2009, show us that North Korea's nuclear program is struggling, just as it was when I went there in 1994, and not that they have an actual working weapons program.

They are a credible threat for giving terrorists access to nuclear material, possibly even including a weapon, but otherwise probably not so much-especially to us.

Best position for us on this is "wait and see." There's no telling what the son will be like, or even if he'll really run the place.

WRONG! I agree with you that their weapons technology is not up to Western standards. But it exists, and it's not getting worse, it is getting better. Wait and see means letting them continue on. Sooner or later, their missiles stop falling into the ocean and actually start working. Sooner or later, their warheads sustain critical mass. And their chemical and biological weapons? They already work, they just need delivery systems.

They are no less than a tiger cub. You can argue that they are not a real threat today, but they won't become anything other than a full-grown tiger. We've had two generations of insane threats, kidnappings, dancing on thin ice with weirdo brinkmanship diplomacy, and we're about to go for round three. I say we take advantage of this one golden opportunity and change the tempo of this dance.

 

[elder999]

WRONG! I agree with you that their weapons technology is not up to Western standards

No, Bill-what I'm saying, based on first hand knowledge,is that their "weapons technology" is not up to weapons standards. :lol:

But it exists, and it's not getting worse, it is getting better.

That's debatable, and probably more true for their missiles than their devices.

Wait and see means letting them continue on. Sooner or later, their missiles stop falling into the ocean and actually start working. Sooner or later, their warheads sustain critical mass.

They don't have anhy "warheads," unless Ivy Mike up there is a "warhead." :lfao:

And their chemical and biological weapons? They already work, they just need delivery systems.

Which are far more likely to be delivered in person, by terrorists, than by any missile. Frankly, this a threat that needs to be addressed in ways other than bombing North Korea, as doing that is not the best way to solve that particular problem.

Hell, when (and note that I said "when," and not "if") a chemical weapon is used in this country it's likely that it will have been cooked up right here in this country-just as the anthrax attacks were.

They are no less than a tiger cub. You can argue that they are not a real threat today, but they won't become anything other than a full-grown tiger. We've had two generations of insane threats, kidnappings, dancing on thin ice with weirdo brinkmanship diplomacy, and we're about to go for round three. I say we take advantage of this one golden opportunity and change the tempo of this dance.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No, Bill-what I'm saying, based on first hand knowledge,is that their "weapons technology" is not up to weapons standards. :lol:

That's debatable, and probably more true for their missiles than their devices.

They don't have anhy "warheads," unless Ivy Mike up there is a "warhead." :lfao:

Which are far more likely to be delivered in person, by terrorists, than by any missile. Frankly, this a threat that needs to be addressed in ways other than bombing North Korea, as doing that is not the best way to solve that particular problem.

Hell, when (and note that I said "when," and not "if") a chemical weapon is used in this country it's likely that it will have been cooked up right here in this country-just as the anthrax attacks were.

You haven't backed up a single thing you've said, except to state you have personal experience with their nuclear program and you do not believe they have nuclear weapons. The FAS disagrees with you. The two detonations they have produced to date would seem to contradict you.

And I'm not advocating indiscriminate bombing of North Korea. I want us to go in and take out their two known nuclear enrichment plants and any and all known repositories for nuclear weapons, and to use tactical nuclear weapons to do is - presumably they are sufficiently hardened to resist bombing with conventional weapons. Then, with their one major threat removed, we can negotiate with the new whatever.

Ultimately, arguing about the yield capability of their nuclear weapons or their delivery systems is a red herring anyway; it's not the reality that they use to threaten the world, it's the threat itself. As long as governments believe they are bat-**** crazy enough to set off nuclear weapons, we kiss their asses in public and private, while they set up elaborate aid programs that have us dancing on thin ice until it pleases them to take their toys back, renounce the deals, and act nutsy fagin again. Which they do over and over again. FACT. It doesn't really matter if their nuclear weapons are actually made of playdough so long as the world continues dancing on the strings they pull.

And that nuclear facility in Syria didn't just magically stop existing because you don't think North Korea has the G2 to do it; it existed until Israel bombed the crap out of it and killed oh **** oh dear, a bunch of North Korean scientists inside. They were probably imagineers, building Syria's first DisneyLand; yeah, that's it.

North Korea is the arsenal and clearing house to all the crazies of the world. All that military tech they've gotten from the Soviet Union and China, they have sold to nations that even those countries won't do business with.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.f10a404351a8ae5d486eb97d4fb3ce67.671

UNITED NATIONS — Greek authorities seized almost 14,000 anti-chemical weapons suits from a North Korean ship possibly headed for Syria but did not disclose the find for nearly two years, diplomats said Wednesday.

The seizure was reported to the UN Security Council, which discussed the monitoring of nuclear sanctions against the isolated North, diplomats said.

The Greek operation was carried out in November 2009 but only reported to the United Nations in September, a diplomat told AFP on condition of anonymity in confirming the number of suits to protect against chemical weapons involved.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ap9U2VfbfCBs

Aug. 28 (Bloomberg) -- The United Arab Emirates has seized a ship carrying North Korean-manufactured munitions, detonators, explosives and rocket-propelled grenades bound for Iran in violation of United Nations sanctions, diplomats said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/world/asia/01plane.html

BANGKOK — A large shipment of North Korean weapons seized here in December was bound for an airport in Iran, according to a Thai government report submitted to the United Nations and leaked to news agencies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/12/us-israel-korea-north-idUSTRE64B18520100512

(Reuters) - The Israeli foreign minister said on Wednesday that North Korean weapons seized in Thailand last year were headed for Islamist groups Hamas and Hezbollah.

And you advocate playing patty-cake with these bastards? Tez wants us to kiss their butts and ask for forgiveness for anything we might have done to offend them in our imperialist ways back in the days after WWII, and that whatever they do to us is our fault and we should just man up and take it. Well, kiss my pucker. I say we have the right opportunity, one that might never come again in our lifetimes, to end this threat. So let's end it. We don't even need anyone's approval - we are at war. Er, police action, for the pedants in the room.

No matter what; if they keep making weapons, they won't get WORSE at it, they'll get better. I don't even see how you can argue that one. They are a threat now, and will be more and more of a threat the longer they have to work on this evil crap. They've bluffed and bullied and threatened the world for nearly half a century; time to end it.

 

[Tez3]

By right of conquest. We won, they didn't. But I wasn't alive then, so no one asked me for my opinion.



South Korea is an independent nation. We do not 'occupy' it. I think the South Koreans might take exception to the notion that the USA owns, runs, or 'occupies' South Korea.



Can't change what happened, I can only change what it. If by 'taking responsibility' you mean stand by while North Korea continues to build and test long-range missiles and nuclear weapons until one fine day they nuke us, then no. With all due respect, you know where you can shove that. I don't care if it's the USA's personal fault that every sin since Adam was committed, if 'taking responsibility' means letting us be destroyed, then no, nyet, never, nada, nope, and wrong-o, comrade.

Korea lost the Second World War? Really? I rather thought they were occupied by the Japanese having lost to them.

Of course making diplomatic and friendly overtures to them is out of the question, not going to even try I take it? Nah let's bomb the hell out of them. Get your retailation in first.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Korea lost the Second World War? Really? I rather thought they were occupied by the Japanese having lost to them.

Indeed. And the Soviet Union and the USA partitioned Korea as a result of winning WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_war#Japanese_rule_.281910.E2.80.931945.29

Toward the end of World War II, as per a US-Soviet agreement, the USSR declared war against Japan on 9 August 1945.[21][24] By 10 August, the Red Army occupied the northern part of the Korean peninsula as agreed, and on 26 August halted at the 38th parallel for three weeks to await the arrival of US forces in the south.[25]

On 10 August 1945, with the 15 August Japanese surrender near, the Americans doubted whether the Soviets would honor their part of the Joint Commission, the US-sponsored Korean occupation agreement. A month earlier, Colonel Dean Rusk and Colonel Charles H. Bonesteel III divided the Korean peninsula at the 38th parallel after hurriedly deciding that the US Korean Zone of Occupation had to have a minimum of two ports.[26][27][28][29]

Explaining why the occupation zone demarcation was positioned at the 38th parallel, Rusk observed, "even though it was further north than could be realistically reached by US forces, in the event of Soviet disagreement ... we felt it important to include the capital of Korea in the area of responsibility of American troops", especially when "faced with the scarcity of US forces immediately available, and time and space factors, which would make it difficult to reach very far north, before Soviet troops could enter the area."[23] The Soviets agreed to the US occupation zone demarcation to improve their negotiating position regarding the occupation zones in Eastern Europe, and because each would accept Japanese surrender where they stood.[30]

Any part of that unclear?

Of course making diplomatic and friendly overtures to them is out of the question, not going to even try I take it? Nah let's bomb the hell out of them. Get your retailation in first.

Not retaliation. Put an end to their ability to manufacture nuclear weapons, and if possible, destroy their stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons. Then negotiate peace.

I am against making diplomatic or friendly overtures to them because that's what we've been doing for the past 60-some-odd years, through two generations of ******* crazy dictators, and it hasn't helped. They starve; we offer food aid. They take it and feed their military. Then they threaten war. Then they throw out our nuclear inspectors after agreeing to allow inspections. Then they set off nuclear weapons, lob shells onto South Korean islands, sink South Korean vessels. They ship weapons to all and sundry, as I've cited, and you're not bovvered by any of that, because they're so poor and oppressed by the big old bad USA, so let's all bend down and kiss the butt of their 3rd-generation Korean crazyman, hey it might turn out better this time.

Stupidity is repeating the same mistakes and hoping for a different outcome. We have tried being nice and kissing *** with them. Doesn't work. Now let's remove their ability to threaten and then we can all talk.

http://www.google.com/search?source...l0l4046l18l11l0l0l0l0l420l3175l0.1.5.4.1l11l0

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&....,cf.osb&fp=158e23d9027d2f36&biw=1680&bih=848

Nuclear Pact With North Korea Threatened .
‎
Harlan Daily Enterprise - Dec 29, 1994
WASHINGTON — Law makers angered by the continued captivity of a US helicopter pilot are threatening to side track a pact with North Korea that freezes its ...

North Korea Threatens Japan Over Backing US-Led Sanctions -...
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New York Times - Jun 10, 1994
By DAVID E. SANGER, North Korea threatened today to mete out a "deserving punishment" to Japan if it cuts off the North's chief source of hard currency or ...

US Is Pressing Sanctions for North Korea - New York Times
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New York Times - Jun 11, 1994
By DOUGLAS JEHL, As North Korea threatened to sever all ties with international nuclear inspectors, the Clinton Administration sought today to signal its ...

Clinton critical of North Korea Plan for limited nuclear...
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Pay-Per-View -
Boston Globe - Dec 7, 1993
In March, angered by the IAEA's insistence that it be allowed to inspect the sites, North Korea threatened to become the first nation to withdraw from the ...

North Korea Threatens to Jettison Pact in Dispute Over...
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New York Times - Mar 9, 1995
By STEVEN GREENHOUSE North Korea threatened today to jettison its four-month-old agreement with the United States and resume its nuclear program if ...

North Korea: Nuclear Defiance Without Punishment Diplomacy:...
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Pay-Per-View -
Los Angeles Times - Dec 12, 1993
Then last March, North Korea threatened to become the first nation to withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. [Bill Clinton] recognizes that the ...

Clinton warns N. Korea Demands adherence to nuclear arms...
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Pay-Per-View -
Boston Globe - Jul 11, 1993
North Korea threatened to withdraw from the treaty last month, sending tremors throughout the Pacific region. US officials have said for several years that ...

S. KOREA FACES `MERCILESS RETALIATION,' NORTH SAYS
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Pay-Per-View -
Chicago Tribune - Oct 6, 1996
North Korea threatened "merciless retaliation" against South Korea Saturday over the deaths of more than 20 of its soldiers who came ashore from a submarine ...

BBC Monitoring International Reports : North Korea reportedl...
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$2.95 -
BBC Archive - Jun 30, 1997
Seoul, 30th June: North Korea threatened Sunday [29th June] to blow up the ` Choson Ilbo' office building as "revenge" for its editorial demanding the ...

Peace Talks For Korea Break Down Amid Acrimony .
‎
Lawrence Journal-World - Mar 22, 1998
GENEVA — North Korea threatened Saturday to withdraw from peace talks for the Korean Peninsula because the United States refused to consider discus sion of ..

San Jose Mercury News : OR GRAIN, OR FUEL OIL.. WITH N....
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$2.95 -
San Jose Mercury News - Mar 7, 1997
When a top official fled to South Korea's Beijing embassy last month, North Korea threatened revenge. A couple of days later, another defector living in ...

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel : North Korea threatens to...
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$2.95 -
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel - Nov 4, 2000
North Korea threatened on Friday to suspend planned reunions of families separated by the 1950-'53 Korean War, accusing the South Korean Red Cross chief of ...
North Korea says US can't dictate terms
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Pay-Per-View -
USA TODAY - Feb 23, 2001
North Korea threatened Thursday to scrap missile and nuclear accords with the United States and railed against the Bush administration's plans for a ...
North Korea Threatens US Over Demand for Arms Inspections -...
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New York Times - Nov 30, 2001
By DON KIRK North Korea threatened ''countermeasures'' today against the United States because Washington insists on ''raising questions over our human ...


N. Korea kidnapped S. Korean military officers in 1999: ex...
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Yonhap News - May 20, 2011
SEOUL, May 20 (Yonhap) -- A former journalist told a Seoul court that North Korea kidnapped two South Korean colonel-level officers and arrested two others ...

The World; COLUMN ONE; A rescuer of Korea's forgotten; An...
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Pay-Per-View -
Los Angeles Times - Feb 8, 2007
NO one knows for sure why North Korea kidnapped civilians. Many were fishermen, but North Korean agents also are alleged to have snatched South Korean ...

Helsingin Sanomat - International Edition - Foreign
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Helsingin Sanomat - Mar 24, 2011
In 1978 North Korea kidnapped South Korean film director Shin Sang-ok and his actress wife to develop the film industry of the dictatorship. ...

Food for North Korea Is Tied to Peace Talks - New York Times
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New York Times - May 8, 1997
Japan has held back aid partly because of anger over charges that North Korea kidnapped a Japanese schoolgirl in 1977 and spirited her to Pyongyang. ...

Abductions unite South Korea and Japan - The New York Times
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New York Times - Apr 20, 2006
"It gives scientific evidence that North Korea kidnapped a South Korean teenager . The Japanese government was a big help for us. ...
BBC Monitoring International Reports : Japan seeks early...
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$2.95 -
BBC Archive - Sep 18, 2002
Tokyo, 18 September: The Japanese government has begun efforts to have the four abducted Japanese living in North Korea repatriated soon and to look into ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_858

Korean Air Flight 858 was a scheduled international passenger flight between Baghdad, Iraq, and Seoul, South Korea that exploded in mid-air on 29 November 1987 after two North Korean agents planted a bomb in the passenger cabin. The two agents, acting upon orders from the North Korean government, planted the device in an overhead locker before disembarking the aircraft during the first stop-over in Abu Dhabi, UAE. While the aircraft was flying over the Andaman Sea to its second stop-over in Bangkok, Thailand, the bomb activated and destroyed the Korean Air Boeing 707-3B5C, registration number HL7406. All 104 passengers and 11 crew members aboard were killed. The attack occurred 34 years after the Korean Armistice Agreement that ended the Korean War, on 27 July 1953.

And you want to kiss these asses?

 

[elder999]

You haven't backed up a single thing you've said, except to state you have personal experience with their nuclear program and you do not believe they have nuclear weapons. The FAS disagrees with you. The two detonations they have produced to date would seem to contradict you.

That's not what I said at all. What I said was that there is a difference between a "nuclear device" and a "nuclear weapon," and it's a difference that's far more than semantic. Neither detonation contradicts what I said, and the Federation of American Scientists doesn't disagree with me at all, except that we're not all weaponeers, and many of us don't recognize the difference between a device and a weapon-just like you-and use one word where the other would be more appropriate.

If I have a 350 lb. boulder, and I put it in a catapult capable of delivering it, it's a weapon. If I have it poised on a cliff, and I'm capable of pushing it off onto someone, it's a weapon. If I can lift it over my head and bash someone into the ground with it, it's a weapon.

Otherwise, it's just a rock.

They have no delivery platform.

Even if they had a delivery platform, they have no deliverable weapon.

What devices they've constructed have only yielded-and this is a high end estimate, based on the available data from the far more succesful 2006 detonation-one kiloton-and likely take up the better part of a few tons of machinery.

THerefore,they have no nuclear weapons, only nuclear devices.

A '"rock," if you will. :lol:

In fact, I'd say that for now the only populace threatened by North Korean nuclear devices are the North Koreans.

As for everything else you've posted, by that same logic we should have nuked Iran quite some time ago, I think......

 

[mxav]

So whats the over/under on him showing up on South Park as Satan's newest homo-love in the next few weeks.

Closest thing we ever had to a real life Bond Villian.

 

[elder999]

Closest thing we ever had to a real life Bond Villian.

Rupert Murdoch, Julian Assange, and Vladmir Putin come to mind, and that's without even a Google search. :lfao:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Even if they had a delivery platform, they have no deliverable weapon.

They've used it as a credible threat, and that's the same as having one; even if you're correct, and I don't think you are.

What devices they've constructed have only yielded-and this is a high end estimate, based on the available data from the far more succesful 2006 detonation-one kiloton-and likely take up the better part of a few tons of machinery.

THerefore,they have no nuclear weapons, only nuclear devices.

A '"rock," if you will. :lol:

A rock they have successfully held the world ransom with over and over again. Deny it. We should take that rock away now.

In fact, I'd say that for now the only populace threatened by North Korean nuclear devices are the North Koreans.

As for everything else you've posted, by that same logic we should have nuked Iran quite some time ago, I think......

No, the time was not right. A madman was in charge of the responses, and it would have been a poor choice strategically. And if Un gains control of the military and settles in to his new position as freak-hat-in-chief soon, the opportunity will pass again. The time to strike is when the opportunity presents itself. We have a window here; a small one.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Rupert Murdoch, Julian Assange, and Vladmir Putin come to mind, and that's without even a Google search. :lfao:

As bad at they are, they are not blatantly putting weaponry in the hands of terrorists who are trying to kill us, nor selling nuclear technology to Iran, Syria, et al. Now I say that somewhat advisedly; because most assuredly Leisure Suit Larry was also a proxy at times for Russia and China; but he was also a mad dog; he just as often pissed off his friends by spitting in their eyes. He was crazy as Khaddafi in his younger days, and worse than Idi Amin, but with a much more strategic position in Asia. If North Korea was some backwater with no strategic value, he would not even have mattered, he and General Buck Naked could have played "The Sound of Music" while eating jello and lounging in the nude and no one would care. But he was tinpot dictator of a very strategically-placed nation. He inherited the nation left after China fought the US in a proxy war to a standstill, and China needs North Korea as a buffer zone against the US, but they need a stable North Korea, and right now, it isn't; and even China knows NK has been getting nuttier and nuttier in recent months.

Unlike Rupert Murdoch, North Korea arms terrorists with serious kit, and they use it against us. ***** THEM. Can I be any clearer about my opinion on this issue? I don't have a problem with the North Koreans; I pity them and I'd love to see some food and other aid flowing into that poor nation and helping those people. That nation is not going to become more stable; only crazier. They are not going to stop selling poison and weaponry to terrorists. They are not going to stop making their nuclear DEVICES better and their delivery systems better and they're not going to stop threatening to shoot them at us and various nations that piss them off. ***** THEM. Take out their ability to wage war with their nuclear DEVICES and take it out now while they're destabilized. De-fang them. Then we can talk rationally about aid, disarmament, peace, and even reunification of the Koreas. China need not fear losing their buffer zone or their customer base; we'll have no reason to stay in South Korea once the war is finally over.

We've never had this perfect an opportunity. To lose it would be a shame.

 

[Cyriacus]

Personally, I feel that the Son will have to try and establish a foothold in His Government. And then I think He will calm things down, in order to fully consolidate it.
I do not feel His first act will be one of Military Force. That would only encourage the Older Generals to try and seize His Position.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Personally, I feel that the Son will have to try and establish a foothold in His Government. And then I think He will calm things down, in order to fully consolidate it.
I do not feel His first act will be one of Military Force. That would only encourage the Older Generals to try and seize His Position.

You have nothing to base your opinions on. No one does at the moment. The outside world does not know anything about this child or what he plans to do; or even if he will be allowed to reign. The nearest comparison I can come up with is the ancient Roman Empire, in which intrigues and assassinations were sometimes the order of the day. What we can safely assume is that this Un met with the general approval of his father Fat Boy and the ruling military leaders, or else he'd have been passed over as his brothers were. So he may be more like his father in terms of his intent than not. But that's about all we can safely speculate.

If he does come to power on his own and is not merely a puppet of his uncle, as some have suggested will be the case, and he is like his father in terms of his policies, then we can expect North Korea to basically behave as it always has. Threats and belligerent actions towards its neighbors, including lobbing shells into South Korea from time to time, killing people. They will continue to work on perfecting their nuclear DEVICES in the hopes that one day they will be more useful in warfare, but in the meantime, they'll continue to set one off every now and then to demonstrate that they can. They'll keep working on their delivery systems, including firing long-range missiles over the ocean until one finally succeeds. They will sell, give away, and otherwise transfer military technology and nuclear expertise to terrorist groups and rogue nations which will in turn kill Americans with them, and we will continue to beg North Korea to let us please help feed their starving millions, which they will jerk us around about, then let the aid in, then give it to their military.

Any of this unclear to you? Am I lying? Is that not what they do now? How on earth would you base an assumption that the new Crazy in charge will be ANY different than his father or grandfather? A little birdy told you so?

 

[Cyriacus]

You have nothing to base your opinions on. No one does at the moment.

Then everyone is just as Presumtuous as I am.

The outside world does not know anything about this child or what he plans to do; or even if he will be allowed to reign. The nearest comparison I can come up with is the ancient Roman Empire, in which intrigues and assassinations were sometimes the order of the day. What we can safely assume is that this Un met with the general approval of his father Fat Boy and the ruling military leaders, or else he'd have been passed over as his brothers were. So he may be more like his father in terms of his intent than not. But that's about all we can safely speculate.

This is also why We may be fussing over nothing. Precautions are being taken, by Numerous Nations.

If he does come to power on his own and is not merely a puppet of his uncle, as some have suggested will be the case, and he is like his father in terms of his policies, then we can expect North Korea to basically behave as it always has. Threats and belligerent actions towards its neighbors, including lobbing shells into South Korea from time to time, killing people. They will continue to work on perfecting their nuclear DEVICES in the hopes that one day they will be more useful in warfare, but in the meantime, they'll continue to set one off every now and then to demonstrate that they can. They'll keep working on their delivery systems, including firing long-range missiles over the ocean until one finally succeeds. They will sell, give away, and otherwise transfer military technology and nuclear expertise to terrorist groups and rogue nations which will in turn kill Americans with them, and we will continue to beg North Korea to let us please help feed their starving millions, which they will jerk us around about, then let the aid in, then give it to their military.

Yep.

Any of this unclear to you? Am I lying? Is that not what they do now? How on earth would you base an assumption that the new Crazy in charge will be ANY different than his father or grandfather? A little birdy told you so?

No, because if they started a direct War, it would Weaken His Hold. Even if He were a Puppet, good luck stabilizing everyone whod pop up hoping to do it better. In a few Years time? Maybe.
But then, did a Little Birdy tell You it would be any other way? You summed this up nicely with the Underlined Text.
If they continue as they have, they will continue to be provocative, and at times hostile. But Im mainly saying, that it would not benefit them to lash out right now. There probably isnt anything to panic about.
Does North Korea have the potential to be a Problem? Yes. Of course it does. Will it be a Problem? Good Question. China supports North Korea, and offered their best wishes for their Governments Progress.
As for North Korea continuing to do as theyve always done, before their Leader Passed, werent they Negotiating with the US for Famine Relief or somesuch? I dont remember exactly, but it wasnt exactly a Violent Pursuit. I do know it was cut off right away, by the US. And that no Renegotiation has been planned as of yet. We will not know how this pans out until it does pan out. I am just as busy with Little Birdies as You are, and everyone else is.

Just My Contribution.