Ah, Steve... yeah, haven't really missed you, bud...
No. Says the guy with over 3 decades in dominantly Japanese systems, including those specialised in and focused on swordsmanship, but with a background including Classical Japanese arts (koryu, specifically Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, and Muso Shinden Ryu, all sword arts), modern organisations and iterations of such (Takamatsuden arts), karate, Tae-kwon Do, Aikido, boxing, judo, jodo, and BJJ... as well as doing a range of seminars and other training events for FMA arts, RBSD ones, Hapkido, modern (Western) jujutsu systems, Seitei Iaido, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Taiji, Western Fencing, HEMA, and probably half a dozen I'm forgetting. I've trained in modern arts, classical arts, traditional arts, sports/competitive arts, I've competed, I've been involved in real fights and violence. And, frankly, you've been told all this before, and have decided that my experience doesn't count for you. Simply speaking... tough. You've stated that your only background is your BJJ, you haven't gotten into actual fights, and your exposure and understanding of anything outside of your BJJ is incredibly limited, to say the least... hell, you thought the OP, a very reasoned and serious question, was a joke thread, due to your complete inability to understand anything being discussed.
And, for the record, no, XMA is an exhibition spectacle, it is not anything close to martial arts. To use the video you posted as an example, there is nothing close to anything like an effective understanding of te-no-uchi, hasuji, cutting mechanics, tactical application of a bladed weapon, context of usage of the weapon and much, much, much more. It is just a showy gymnastic show... to consider it anything else is to have no clue about what you're looking at. This isn't elitism, it's simple observation. I mean... the knife fight in West Side Story is more akin to martial arts than that display is. That's not to say that there isn't anything of value in what XMA guys do... just that there's no value from a martial perspective other than physical fitness (which, it must be said, is not equal to martial training in the slightest... there is a cross-over in the Venn diagram, but not as wide as might be believed... especially for this coming from a sports-related background).
Yep, that's absolutely fair... and, really, deliberate as well. I purposefully didn't go into detail other than to indicate where things were off-base, mainly to see how people would take it... if they'd re-examine their approach to the topic, ask for clarification, or what... so I apologise for coming off as somewhat dismissive of the ideas, as that's not the actual case... but I don't apologise for the lack of detail behind my answers... yet.
No, I meant what I said. I am, of course, familiar with the far more common quote from Nagamine-sensei, and I agree with it possibly more vehemently than many karate practitioners, but I meant my reference to kiai. Then again, I don't separate them out, as I consider them both integral to karate (and martial arts in general, especially Japanese ones).
Agreed completely. I think asking about such things as you've done here is exactly what everyone should be doing about their practice, regardless of what they study... ask questions, find out, understand all aspects of your practice if you can. This is why I am so baffled as to what in your OP Steve thought was indicative of this being a "joke thread" as he said.
You missed my point, I feel. I'm not doubting your study of Isshin Ryu... what I'm saying is that the more you decide to alter the art to suit your personal preferences, the less it remains Isshin Ryu... so to claim it to still be the same art is increasingly inaccurate. Of course, changes to a martial system can and do occur over time... with the strict caveat that such changes are typically from the head of the system on down, for a range of reasons... when someone changes something due to having a complete understanding, and coming to some kind of realisation, or adapting to some change, is one thing... when people change things because they don't understand them properly or fully, that's where it's problematic... and leads to the new version having less and less in common with the purported art it still claims to be. That can lead to new arts (look to Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, Wally Jay, the variant BJJ lineages etc for fairly modern examples), which again, no problem whatsoever... none of them claimed to be the same as their source, and all came from various levels of understanding of their foundational systems... or it can lead to a corruption of the original system itself... which is where there are issues.
My study of karate began in the late 80's, and I'm aware of who I'm addressing. I did, however, stop my karate training to move onto other arts in the early 90's, but my interest in all martial arts, especially those from Japan (and, by extension, Okinawan ones) has continued since. And, I might note, I began my first response by stating I was coming from other Japanese martial arts as my primary perspective... as that's my major focus... but karate is a big part of my history, as that's my starting point, at least for physical training.
Very true, Buka... of course, if I may, your case does highlight much of what I talk about above... you do not practice, nor claim to practice, a specific Okinawan or Japanese form/tradition of karate... you are very open in that you practice an American variant, which is a new system based in a personal direction of someone, or a group of people, back in the day... the approach separated from the way it was presented for whatever reasons... so it became it's own thing. Which is exactly what I describe about moving away from the original system, and no longer actually practicing that original art.
I get the whole "psych yourself up" idea... but that's anathema to martial arts the way it's presented here... a big part of it being that "emotional drain" you're talking about. Ideally, such things should be avoided, or at least minimalised as much as possible, as it only leads to exhaustion (mentally and physically), and, in the middle of combat, that's an equation for death.
As far as being unfamiliar with what I train, here's one of my main systems. This is the other main line, the Narita/Chiba group (I'm from the Kawasaki one), but the heart is the same:
One of the most common concepts in Japanese martial arts is that of mushin (無心 - pretty literally "an absence of mind/heart/spirit"), which is a concept of not having emotional extremes, keeping control over yourself internally in order to have external control, and so on. It's not a "soft style" thing, in fact, quite the opposite... it is simply what is required if you want to survive. Watch combat sports... those that keep their cool, stay calm and focused (in a Japanese expression, maintain mushin), are the ones who come across as the professionals... those just running in, emotions all over the place, get cleaned up.
Yeah... you missed the point. I was using that as an example of a very bad idea, not one that's hard to imagine yourself doing... a meaningless sacrifice grown out of being overly emotionally excited, and not being able to make any kind of clear decision.
Oh, I'm not talking about the soldier who is ordered to move forward despite the lack of odds of survival... I'm talking about the soldier who gets so hyped up he ignores any orders and just charges forward...
None of which was in the video Steve linked. That was pure emotional energy, focused, sure, but such an extreme waste of energy with such meaningless action that it is, as I said, the exact opposite of actual martial arts. It's jumping up and down and screaming "LOOK AT ME!!!!!"... it's a show, nothing else... there is no technical aspect related to martial arts, especially not the use of a sword, there is no tactical expression related, there is no mechanical aspect related, and more.
Then I say again. Put this guy up against anyone with 6 months of sword work, and he does this? Hell, he does anything close to this, or related to it? He dies.
Sure. I was going to do this at the end, but might as well put it here.
Let's take this back a bit, and examine exactly what a ki-ai actually is, what it refers to, and what it isn't. But first, let's remind ourselves what I was responding to when I said "Honestly, all of that is almost precisely what kiai is not."
You had said:
"I played college football and still remember how loud some guys would get during a game. No, it was not formally known as a kiai but the intent was much the same. My point is there is a very natural element to kiai (kihap) in the everyday, real world. I am sure we have all made the very loud 'grunt' when picking up something heavy. That is akin to the formal kiai."
So, my disagreement is that "getting loud (during a game of football)" is anything related to ki-ai... as well as that the idea of a "loud 'grunt' when picking up something heavy" is anything close either... and all that comes down to understanding what a ki-ai is in the first place, as most people attribute it to something that it, well, isn't... which is the noise itself.
Ki-ai (気合) is made up of two characters, as you can see (Korean arts obviously use the Korean Hangul for kihap, but they are actually the same words), with the first obviously being "ki", the second "ai". Both these characters/concepts have a fair amount of nuance to them, which is where it all gets a bit complicated, but to keep it pretty simple, "ki" (気) is often described as "energy" (the character itself represents the steam coming up off a cooked grain of rice... interesting!), with "ai" (会) meaning "to come together/unite"... so the term "ki-ai" means "to unite, or bring together, energy". Okay, but what does that mean? Well, it basically means that a ki-ai is the action, or concept of acting in total concert with yourself. It's the body and intention all working together; your arms, legs, core, breath, mind, intent, and so on. But you might notice that I haven't said anything about any sound or noise yet... and that's because it's not a part of the concept of ki-ai. It is used to express ki-ai, but it's not actually the ki-ai itself...
So what is the noise/shout, then? In Japanese terms, it's called the kakegoe (懸聲), which is literally a "suspended voice". From this, we can understand that the shout is not the ki-ai, although it can be part of the expression of a ki-ai, and that the presence of a shout (or noise) is not necessarily indicative of ki-ai. The examples of a "loud football game" is more to do with adrenaline, psyching each other up (or yourself), but is removed from the rest... unless the only noises where in conjunction with a particular action, and then also combined with a particular approach to intent... which is why the "grunt" of physical effort is also not related to the concept of ki-ai.
Now, none of this is to say that simple vocalisation is not valid in and of itself... the military have used it as a psychological tool, both in spurring the recruits into action in training drills, and to increase aggression when facing truly terrible situations. What must be noted there, though (and this is where the whole "I'm a soldier, therefore more of a martial artist than a judo guy" comes into it) is that the aim of the soldiers training is not to keep the soldier (individual) alive... it's to get them to follow the orders as part of the unit so the overall aims can be achieved. Honestly, soldiers are considered expendable in the over-arching scheme of things... that's kind of the point of them... and going into that career knowing that is something that demands respect, clearly. Just in case anyone felt I was speaking ill of military members. The only point I'm making is that the shouting in military training is not a ki-ai, as the aims and reasoning is quite different. By the same token, a "grunt" of effort is simply a way of expelling air, and therefore giving less "space" inside your body, reinforcing it for the action you're asking of it. Yes, it's combined with an action, but it's not so much about focusing the mind/spirit, or anything similar... it's just a physiological reinforcing of muscle groups when under (physical) stress.
"Something I tell new students (well, all students) is that kihap literally means 'expulsion of air'."
It doesn't. The term has no reference to air, expulsion, or anything else. In fact, it's about bringing things together (uniting - ai/hap/会), not expelling anything. So when you say it "literally means (this)" when it very literally does not, yeah, I'm going to correct that... saying that your claim of literal wasn't literal, but figurative, well... nah...
Ha, yeah, I'd suggest that as well... and, again, this isn't in and of itself an issue... but if we're discussing things in a forum dedicated to Japanese martial arts, then, well, I'd suggest we look to the Japanese approach to the concept... without getting into the suppositions of exactly what was brought across to Korea to create much of the modern KMA approaches...
Yeah... no. Not at all.
Yeah, I'd say so... but to expand on my comments, if your'e requiring a "forceful expulsion of air", that's removed from being united with the rest of your action... which means it is, again, simply not a ki-ai.
Ha, cool... I usually tell my guys that breathing is good for you, and I wholeheartedly recommend it for most people... there are always some exceptions, though, ha!
Firstly, bear in mind that Japanese arts, especially classical ones, utilise kata quite differently to Chinese-influenced arts (karate, TKD etc), in that kata are rarely the long string of solo actions... to see examples of kata in Japanese arts, well.... see the video I linked above. So there's going to be differences there already. That said, in many classical arts, there are a range of kakegoe applied throughout the waza, depending on the tradition... they may have them at the beginning, and end... only on the final action... all the way through... or even not have them at all.
Okay.
To finish (for now),
@isshinryuronin, I'd like to invite you to ask for clarification of anything I have said here, or in my first post in this thread... as I said, yes, much is "unsubstantiated" in the post itself... deliberately so, aiming to provoke thought... so please, ask anything you want me to clarify or expand upon. Obviously you don't have to agree with me, but it may give some ways to think about this topic you haven't considered yet.
That's what I get for typing on a phone while also watching a movie.
