do you think kata and kiai is necessary and good in ma?

[repz]

Kata is the syllabus of karate when they didnt write things down. A sort of shadow boxing as the closest example. It has all the footwork, balance, strikes, and self defense applications. At a time when there was at most 2 students and karate wasnt practiced openly, kata served a purpose in training solo and passing down the techniques.

Now, kihon basics are drilled more, and is further broken down into longer drills dealing with footwork, weight transfer, etc. I think at this point its about maintaining tradition, though its not a waste since its still the "data" for the techniques.

Kiai I considered important. There is some kind of evidence that it releases some adrenaline. We have all felt that when we are lifting something we breathe out and grunt. I kiai when i am bench pressing and it gives me that extra lift and helps release air.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

Couple of interesting things here. Perhaps GreatLakes may require a more solid definition of kata, and for good measure, my take on kiai as well.

Kata.

Well, kata is a Japanese term that literally means "form", or "shape". The method of training refered to as kata training is what NLP practitioners refer to as "modeling". In this method, the student repeats the same movements and actions over and over without changing them, in order to instill the basic strategies and concepts of a martial system. As a result, you could even say that BJJ uses a kata method, in that you constantly repeat the same action (a particular sweep, for example) over and over in order to be able to use it at any time. The term used would probably simply be "drill", though.

In old Japanese arts, known as koryu (old styles), kata training often refers to paired combat exercises, with a specific attack and response scenario. This is applied to unarmed and weapon schools alike, with different schools having longer or shorter kata depending on the school in question. This type of kata training exists even in more modern systems such as BJJ and Judo.

In more modern arts (such as karate, tae kwon do, various kung fu systems), the kata/form/poomse approach is far more often a long string of movements practiced solo. This is, as stated, not the only definition of "kata".

Kiai.

Kiai is often translated as "Spirit(ed) Shout", but the literal translation of the characters is "Energy" (ki) "Harmony" (ai). These are the same characters as in aiki(do or jutsu), just in the opposite order, so the idea is kind of the opposite from aikido. In aikido, as I understand it, the characters read "Harmony Energy", giving the inference of harmonizing with the energy of the situation, the attack, the opponent, or some other such concept. Kiai, on the other hand, reads "Energy Harmony", and that gives the idea of harmonizing your energy (or intention) together with your actions to create an effect on the outside environment, be it a person, situation, or something else entirely.

This kiai is more a concept of directed intention, rather than just a noise made for show. Of course, it is a very good way, as mentioned, to develop proper habits in breathing when striking as well, and to that end, there are a number of different physical (verbalised) kiai taught. In general terms, there are two main types of kiai, offensive (ending in a vowel - Yah, Doh, Ei etc), and defensive (ending in a constanent - Hut, Hup, Ei-Yush etc). The offensive kiai end in a vowel, as that allows the breath to leave the body, allowing the transferance of energy freely without the inhibition that comes form tensed muscles. The defensive kiai do the opposite, ending in a constanent specifically to hold the breath in and strengthen (re-inforce) the body to aid blocking and recieving manouvres. For the record, though, kiai can be used in a number of other ways, such as fakes, but I'm not adressing that here.

Specific traditional schools sometimes have associated kiai specific to them; for instance, Gyokko Ryu has Yah, and Doh (with the breath held in for defensive use), Takagi Yoshin Ryu has Ei and Ei-Yush, but it's not really focused on. We tend more to explore the concepts and allow students to express their spirit as they feel it... although this usually is an offer taken by the more experienced.

One last thing on kiai: the physical (verbal) aspect is just one expression. There are also silent kiai, and what are known as "shadow kiai". The important thing is your reason (intention) behind the kiai. But when verbalising, make sure the sound is generated from your diaphragm, not your throat. If you have a sore throat afterwards, look to how you're doing it.

Kime no kata.

This is to expand on Tez3's mention of it in Judo. Yes, it is found in Judo training, but that is not where it is actually from, merely where it is preserved. The old story goes that a formal self-defence system, relatively simple and easy to learn was wanted, so members of various organisations go together to create this system so it could be taught to the general public. It is very Jujutsu in it's approach, however it is not specific to any one group or ryu. It would most likely have been lost as it lost importance, if it were not for the efforts of the Judoka in preserving it within their curriculum, which I appreciate greatly (I love the Kime no Kata, and teach it every now and then to give an insight into what Goshinjutsu was and is now, and how the cultural differences change what is considered important).

So I'm sure you can see from my words here, I believe that kata and kiai have great benefits, even if you don't use these terms, you are probably using the concepts anyway.

 

[seasoned]

So I'm sure you can see from my words here, I believe that kata and kiai have great benefits, even if you don't use these terms, you are probably using the concepts anyway.

Great post Chris, But it is your last sentence that puts it into everyone's art.

 

[Chris Parker]

Shucks, the martial arts belong to all of us, not just those using fancy words all the time....

 

[Gordon Nore]

Kiai.

Kiai is often translated as "Spirit(ed) Shout", but the literal translation of the characters is "Energy" (ki) "Harmony" (ai). These are the same characters as in aiki(do or jutsu), just in the opposite order, so the idea is kind of the opposite from aikido. In aikido, as I understand it, the characters read "Harmony Energy", giving the inference of harmonizing with the energy of the situation, the attack, the opponent, or some other such concept. Kiai, on the other hand, reads "Energy Harmony", and that gives the idea of harmonizing your energy (or intention) together with your actions to create an effect on the outside environment, be it a person, situation, or something else entirely.

That's how I've understood kiai as well. My teachers translated kiai as "focused energy." Our system is a hybrid of HKD and Shotokan, and they translated Hapkido as, "the way of harmonious energy," which is very similar to what you've suggested here. It's for that reason, I don't care for the "spirit shout" translation, as kiai is not always audible; however, an audible and inaudible kiai have essentially the same properties and benefits.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This kiai is more a concept of directed intention, rather than just a noise made for show.

By this definition you could argue that it is also in CMA although the approach is very different (see qigong or Neijia training)

Of course, it is a very good way, as mentioned, to develop proper habits in breathing when striking as well,

However here is where CMA and JMA appear to part ways. Having a powerful strike should not be tied to a Kiai in the external sense (aka the verbalization of it)

and to that end, there are a number of different physical (verbalised) kiai taught. In general terms,

And many CMA styles do not have that at all.

One last thing on kiai: the physical (verbal) aspect is just one expression. There are also silent kiai, and what are known as "shadow kiai". The important thing is your reason (intention) behind the kiai. But when verbalising, make sure the sound is generated from your diaphragm, not your throat. If you have a sore throat afterwards, look to how you're doing it.

CMA POV; Intent yes....verbalization no. Many CMA styles, possibly all Internal CMA styles, do not have the verbalization bits

So I'm sure you can see from my words here, I believe that kata and kiai have great benefits, even if you don't use these terms, you are probably using the concepts anyway.

Not sure here, depends on if the verbalization is important or a major part of kiai. If it is then no, if it isn't then yes.

 

[Blade96]

I love that translation of Kiai - The Spirit Cry.

Probably because its supposed to come from , yeah the diaphragm and not your throat, its supposed to be an expression of the spirit, as martial arts is strengthening the character as well as the body and mind.

 

[repz]

I dont know why kiai is stirring any controversy.

There are many cases of kiais through history, many were used to boost their strength to intimidating and confusing their opponents.

Examples like the Rebel Yell used by the Confederates which was said to strike fear into the Union soldiers, the yells of the Native American warriors before they ran up on you and struck you. Theres stories in history of scottish warriors yelling during engagements. In sports discus, javelin and other sports yell for power through forceful release of air.

And to quote a website:
Yelling may also have some sort of "psyching up" effect which would increase performance from an increased central neural drive from the motor cortex in the brain literally increasing arousal.

So indirectly, I'm sure yelling will increase adrenaline simply from an increased arousal (sypathetic nervous system) point of view

 

[Blade96]

I dont know why kiai is stirring any controversy.

There are many cases of kiais through history, many were used to boost their strength to intimidating and confusing their opponents.

Examples like the Rebel Yell used by the Confederates which was said to strike fear into the Union soldiers, the yells of the Native American warriors before they ran up on you and struck you. Theres stories in history of scottish warriors yelling during engagements. In sports discus, javelin and other sports yell for power through forceful release of air.

And to quote a website:
Yelling may also have some sort of "psyching up" effect which would increase performance from an increased central neural drive from the motor cortex in the brain literally increasing arousal.

So indirectly, I'm sure yelling will increase adrenaline simply from an increased arousal (sypathetic nervous system) point of view

i heard about it all the time. People saying "such and such is better than karate cause it doesnt have all that unnecessary useless forms/katas and loud 'haaaaaayyyyaaaaaahhhh!' wax on, wax off stuff"

thats almost a direct quote of some fool i'm writing here, someone actually wrote this and I'm like, jesus, who writes this crud?

 

[Tez3]

When our childrens class is grading I make sure the first move they do is to go into a fighting stance with a kiai, I tell them to really put a lot into that first kiai as it will take the nerves away and set them up for the grading. It certainly works that way, they do settle down to working hard then.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

i heard about it all the time. People saying "such and such is better than karate cause it doesnt have all that unnecessary useless forms/katas and loud 'haaaaaayyyyaaaaaahhhh!' wax on, wax off stuff"

thats almost a direct quote of some fool i'm writing here, someone actually wrote this and I'm like, jesus, who writes this crud?

Fanboy trolls who want to stir up trouble and internet salesmen trying to tell you why their teh d3@dly video class is superior.

Daniel

 

[JWLuiza]

Necessary means without Kata, you aren't doing a martial art. I think that statement is false, so Kata is not necessary. Same holds true for kiai.

Useful/good are separate arguments. I am trained from a school that views the purpose of kata as performance. I am trying to think of kata training as an integral part of self-defense training and have drastically altered the types of things I practice.

But I still love the performance aspect of kata. However, I tell friends/students it might be the slowest way to learn how to "fight". Then I mess with their heads and tell them karate isn't about fighting anyway. Great segway for a discussion of self-defense vs. fighting vs. sport.

 

[dianhsuhe]

Yes they are important and necessary.

You should have made this a poll-

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey Xue,

The verbalisation, I believe, is merely one cultural expression. So no, I don't think it's neccessary for a kiai to be verbalised, that is just one approach to teaching the concept. The problem, and percieved shortcomings, come when the verbalisation is thought to actually be the kiai, when it actually isn't. It is only one expression of it.

All it is, really, is directed and focused energies and intention. And that the CMA's have in spades.

Blade96, that translation is not literal, of course, but the thing to recognise is that that is the translation you have been given is more a teaching method of a physical (verbalised) expression of a kiai. There are a few reasons you are taught to kiai from the diaphragm rather than the throat, namely that it ensures you're breathing from the right place, and that you don't damage your throat/larynx, which can happen if you are doing it incorrectly. But on a deeper level, it is a centering device, ensuring that your physical centre is in your hara, or tanden (hara meaning belly, the tanden being the specific spot about two inches or so below your navel. On men, it is about where the knot on the obi is, women wear their obi higher, so it is below that for yourself), allowing you to "feel" where your centre should be in combat and training. Add to that the fact that most people centre their emotions in their throats (if you have ever felt a particularly strong emotion, fear, anger, etc, it is often felt in the throat, often with a tightening for the negative ones), so by focusing your kiai from yoru diaphragm, you are taking yourself away from the emotional centre, and into the more balanced, "mushin" location. So while the translation is inaccurate (from a literal sense), it is quite an interesting one, and obviously one that works well for you. Hopefull this can add to your understanding.

Repz, well, that isn't really what I would qualify as a kiai. It is more a primal yell, designed to relive adrenaline (as Tez does with he youngsters), and instill fear and intimidate an opponent. But a kiai is a much deeper concept when it all comes down to it. So while kiai can incorporate yelling (and many versions do), yelling is not kiai. They are different ideas. Make sense?

 

[K-man]

Necessary means without Kata, you aren't doing a martial art. I think that statement is false, so Kata is not necessary. Same holds true for kiai.

Useful/good are separate arguments. I am trained from a school that views the purpose of kata as performance. I am trying to think of kata training as an integral part of self-defense training and have drastically altered the types of things I practice.

Good post that raises a very interesting point.
This means that the answer to the first part could be 'Yes' and 'No'.
Now, because I have limited experience of MAs outside of my chosen pursuits, my observations here are based on karate and others, with experiences in the other MAs, may like to enlarge on the idea.
Please forgive the brief history lesson.
In Okinawan karate we began with three styles of karate, Shuri-te, Naha-te and Tomari-te. Collectively they were called Okinawa-Te or Tode, 'Chinese hand'. As the towns of Shuri, Tomari, Naha are only a few miles apart, differences between their arts were essentially ones of emphasis, not of kind. My style of Goju Ryu was developed by Chojun Miyagi from Naha-te. We have a number of kata that Miyagi, in his wisdom, decided appropriate for his style.
After many years of training, if I were to delete kata from my teaching, I would still be teaching 'karate'. If my students went off to teach, they would also still be teaching 'karate' but most likely nobody would recognise the source, it would be fashioned by their strengths. So my Goju Ryu karate, without kata, would no longer be Goju Ryu. In other words, to retain the style, you must retain the kata. There is another plus in doing so. My early teachers had no idea of the application of the kata we were learning, not their fault as they had never been shown. Some students left our style, set up their own school, eliminated kata, because it wasn't realistic or relevant, and practised 'freestyle'. (They subsequently reintroduced kata when the true application became known.) I had a progression of teachers who were oblivious to what they were teaching. In the end it didn't matter. The form passed intact through several generations of instructors, but because of the kata, it retained its essence, which I have only recently been able to extract and teach. To my mind, kata is the skeleton on which we hang much of our specialised knowledge. Without the little bits that make our style work, we may as well just be punching a bag.
In summary, yes we can have karate without kata, but kata is necessary if we are to retain a defined 'style' of karate. If Miyagi reincarnated and came down to Melbourne, he would probably be mortified at my performance and knowledge, but hopefully able to recognise what I teach as his Goju karate. :asian:

 

[repz]

Hey Xue,
Repz, well, that isn't really what I would qualify as a kiai. It is more a primal yell, designed to relive adrenaline (as Tez does with he youngsters), and instill fear and intimidate an opponent. But a kiai is a much deeper concept when it all comes down to it. So while kiai can incorporate yelling (and many versions do), yelling is not kiai. They are different ideas. Make sense?

Japanese culture always makes things to seem spiritual, even the idea of concentration and focus is meant to be something spiritual.

You said yourself its for a burst of adrenaline and to instill fear, it can be easily termed as gathering spirit- energy (which can come from adrenaline) and bringing down your opponents energy (from fear, surprise from the yell). So those are usually the two advantages karate schools promote for the kiai, even from musashi's time he said it gives you energy and awes your enemy.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To answer the original question:

do you think kata and kiai is necessary and good in ma?

Kata: Kata serve two essential functions.
The first is as a basic syllabus. Kata as most people think of it (solo kata as seen in Shotokan, TSD, TKD, etc.) serves as an unwritten (oral if you will) means of cataloging and preserving the techniques associated with the style. The body of kata also serves as a means for a student to practice solo when he or she does not have access to a traditional training area. I can work through solo kata anywhere that I have room to do so, which means that I can practice karate while on vacation, at the beach, in my office, etc..

The second is to develop skills in specific, usually common, scenarios, with two people working in tandem. In this way, kata serve as two person drills to help build in specific responses to specific attacks. In addition, both solo and partnered kata develop the student's footwork and movement on a rudimentary level and to work on combinations.

So if you take away the label of 'kata' and replace it with solo or paired exercise, yes, it is necessary and good.

Kiai: Not all martial arts use kiai. And some of those that do not use it are effective, so it is certainly not necessary. But what is the purpose that Kiai serves? Partly, it is designed to develop specific breathing patterns. There is a proper way to breath in any athletic or physical endeavor. One of the first things that I learned in PE when we were introduced to weight lifting in high school was to exhale when lifting and to inhale when lowering. Kiai is not the only way to develop good breathing habits, either in general or in martial arts. The function of good breathing is necessary. Kiai is a viable component in doing so, and is thus good, but it is not necessary.

As mentioned by others, kiai, or kihap in KMA, has other benefits as well.

With both kata and Kiai, if they are used in a way that differs from their intended purpose, then like any tool used for the wrong job, they lose their usefulness. Used incorrectly for the right job, they also lose their usefulness.

Kata taught correctly but without application and as a substitute for SD training develops students who are more fit than they were when they started class and who can execute a plethora of techniques, but are unable to apply them in a practical way (self defense) and who have no concept of handling a resisting opponent.

Kata used to occupy the class and without regard to how the students move or execute the techniques not only develops students who cannot apply skills in a practical way (self defense) and who have no concept of handling a resisting opponent, but they develop bad habits of movement and sloppy execution of technique.

Kiai used just to make kids have fun or 'because we do this' with no mind to the practical reasons behind it is just a waste of energy. If it is not taught properly (from the diaphram), then you wind up with hoarse students.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Japanese culture always makes things to seem spiritual, even the idea of concentration and focus is meant to be something spiritual.

You said yourself its for a burst of adrenaline and to instill fear, it can be easily termed as gathering spirit- energy (which can come from adrenaline) and bringing down your opponents energy (from fear, surprise from the yell). So those are usually the two advantages karate schools promote for the kiai, even from musashi's time he said it gives you energy and awes your enemy.

ahhh but Spirit, to the Chinese, means "mind".... not spirituality (by wetsern definition) or religion in this case. :asian:

 

[Tez3]

I teach the children to kiai properly as well as how to breathe, I have three with asthma so it's important they don't shallow breathe or use too much breath while training. I try never to teach anything 'just because this is the way we do it', if I don't have the answers to why we do it I'l find out why, often by asking here or asking other more informed instructors. We always encourage asking 'why'.

 

[repz]

ahhh but Spirit, to the Chinese, means "mind".... not spirituality (by wetsern definition) or religion in this case. :asian:

Heart, power, soul, ghosts, monsters, mind, spirit or magic. Whatever terminology or definition everyone agrees to is fine, that wasnt really the point in my message.

My post was about the adrenaline rush of a yell (used in both wars and in sports ranging from power lifting to football), and its sudden shock to the enemy (also used in war and in sports), I was speaking about the advantage of the vocal yell of a kiai.