do you think kata and kiai is necessary and good in ma?

[Chris Parker]

Hey repz,

Yeah, to a degree I agree. A kiai is not a primal yell, or scream, which is how I read your description. If that is a misinterpretation, my apologies. That said, yes the vocalisation can certainly be a benefit and have all the features you mention, it is just that the kiai concept goes a fair bit further. So while a yell can be a kiai, yelling is not necessarily a kiai, although that in no way robs it of use.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Heart, power, soul, ghosts, monsters, mind, spirit or magic. Whatever terminology or definition everyone agrees to is fine, that wasnt really the point in my message.

My post was about the adrenaline rush of a yell (used in both wars and in sports ranging from power lifting to football), and its sudden shock to the enemy (also used in war and in sports), I was speaking about the advantage of the vocal yell of a kiai.

First to Chinese that is not Heart, power, soul, ghosts, monsters or magic. it is simply the mind, but that is not my point here either

From my CMA POV a vocalized yell is not necessarily an advantage, if it works it is great but if you miss it can be a problem. If you can only attack yelling then if you miss, after you attack then I attack because you cannot attack without an big inhale to yell again.

That is my problem with depending on vocalization (or exhale) to fight.

I do however believe what Chris is saying about the kiai fits into a CMA view of things

 

[repz]

First to Chinese that is not Heart, power, soul, ghosts, monsters or magic. it is simply the mind, but that is not my point here either

From my CMA POV a vocalized yell is not necessarily an advantage, if it works it is great but if you miss it can be a problem. If you can only attack yelling then if you miss, after you attack then I attack because you cannot attack without an big inhale to yell again.

That is my problem with depending on vocalization (or exhale) to fight.

I do however believe what Chris is saying about the kiai fits into a CMA view of things

Yes, someone mentioned the mind, which is the reason for that post, because it doesnt matter, someone can post another martial arts way of gathering energy and it wont be debated from me, because there is no point to be made in doing so from my stand point, you might as well be pointing out the obvious.

And in kumite, there are several chains of loud kiais. So how exactly would it only be used once? They perform numerous kiais. Even in the battlefield they would continue to yell to disorientate the enemy.

And its fine that you dont agree, i am not trying to make a believer out of anyone. I already stated the advantages of yelling in general terms for gathering adrenaline and shock as used in sports and combat, you either debate those statements directly or not.

 

[JWLuiza]

I am not a Koryu practitioner (don't have the discipline!) but I do believe different Ryu have school specific yells which serve a purpose. Can anyone give more detial about the Kiai from Japanese Koryu?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes, someone mentioned the mind, which is the reason for that post, because it doesnt matter, someone can post another martial arts way of gathering energy and it wont be debated from me, because there is no point to be made in doing so from my stand point, you might as well be pointing out the obvious.

OK let me see if I follow this first Things of other styles don't matter and I am pointing out the obvious.... in what way... that they are not the same. I was not talking about gathering energy I was specifically talking about the yelling bits

And its fine that you dont agree, i am not trying to make a believer out of anyone. I already stated the advantages of yelling in general terms for gathering adrenaline and shock as used in sports and combat, you either debate those statements directly or not.

I see...discuss based on the parameters you set in your post based on your understanding and your point of view or don't bother... okie dokie

And I have watched a lot of Sports MA and I do not see much yelling and certainly not continuous... not in Sanda.. not in Muay Thai... not in TKD...not in karate... not in MMA.... not in Judo

Oh and thank you for letting me know it was ok not to agree with you

 

[repz]

OK let me see if I follow this first Things of other styles don't matter and I am pointing out the obvious.... in what way... that they are not the same. I was not talking about gathering energy I was specifically talking about the yelling bits

I am not discussing any philsophies about spirit, or mind, i said you might as well state ANYTHING even the obvious, it wont matter, i wont argue the point because i never turned any of my replies to debate it or not.

I see...discuss based on the parameters you set in your post based on your understanding and your point of view or don't bother... okie dokie


Oh and thank you for letting me know it was ok not to agree with you

You never agreed or disagreed, i made some points that werent addressed. So i dont understand the reason for this post. I never said its because its japanese, or its karate so it works, it seems you are saying it doesnt work because chinese arts doesnt use it. I was merely stating any advantages of a vocal yell of a kiai. I welcome any discussion, thats why i am posting, but it seems using a CMA POV seems a little biais, i never made this into a debate between any arts or cultures, thats why i used sports and history to make a point.

And I have watched a lot of Sports MA and I do not see much yelling and certainly not continuous... not in Sanda.. not in Muay Thai... not in TKD...not in karate... not in MMA.... not in Judo

Karate kumite kiais a lot, and in kyokushin a fighter will start with a kiai and fight with kiai's. Any youtube search can show more kiais in a fight then an average dojo.

 

[Xinglu]

I am not discussing any philsophies about spirit, or mind

You just have your mind made up and don't want to be confused with the facts do you.....

No philosophies of the spirit or mind were offered up to you, so let's not pretend like they were. :whip:

You were corrected for you misconception of what "spirit" meant in CMA. That is has no spiritual connotation. But if you prefer your ignorance, please, have at it.

In CMA the kiai is internal. Vocalized kiai may have it's time and place, however, dependence upon a yell is a telegraph and a weakness. If you can only be strong when you are exhaling, then as said before, I will hit you when you inhale. That is the fundamental flaw upon depending on a vocalized kiai.

But now I am rehashing what has already been said. However, you clearly weren't listening. Perhaps now you will. Perhaps not. The point is the same either way.

To disagree with you, one does not have to address ALL of your points, just the pertinent ones (Those that are being disagreed with).

 

[JWLuiza]

Heart, power, soul, ghosts, monsters, mind, spirit or magic. Whatever terminology or definition everyone agrees to is fine, that wasnt really the point in my message.

My post was about the adrenaline rush of a yell (used in both wars and in sports ranging from power lifting to football), and its sudden shock to the enemy (also used in war and in sports), I was speaking about the advantage of the vocal yell of a kiai.

It seems the arguments are because of poor communication.
Repz: I don't think your argument has been stated more clearly than what is quoted above.
is your point that THE benefit of kiai is the vocal shock and adrenaline dump? What position are you trying to put forward?

 

[Chris Parker]

I am not a Koryu practitioner (don't have the discipline!) but I do believe different Ryu have school specific yells which serve a purpose. Can anyone give more detial about the Kiai from Japanese Koryu?

Hey John,

As I stated earlier, yes, a few systems have specific kiai associated with them. Within Ninjutsu circles, the Gyokko Ryu uses "Yah" (as an attacking kiai, ending with an open vowel), and "Doh" (as a defensive one, shortening the end, holding your breath in to brace your body), the Takagi Ryu has "Ei" (aggressive) and "Ei Yush" (defensive). Other schools, such as Yagyu Shingan Ryu and Kiraku Ryu, as well as many other koryu, don't really have specific kiai, but appear to have structured uses within the practice of kata, in order to maintain the correct spirit from the beginning of the action to the end.

The basic form (and this changes from Ryu to Ryu) is to move into your starting position (an attacking posture, a grab, etc), and give a long kiai, signalling your readiness to enter into combat. The kata is then performed, and a long kiai is often used to end the combat. Here's a good example from the Toda-ha Buko Ryu Naginatajutsu, which shares a connection with Kiraku Ryu Jujutsu, both having come from Toda Ryu.

 

[repz]

You just have your mind made up and don't want to be confused with the facts do you.....

No philosophies of the spirit or mind were offered up to you, so let's not pretend like they were. :whip:

You were corrected for you misconception of what "spirit" meant in CMA. That is has no spiritual connotation. But if you prefer your ignorance, please, have at it.

Lol, the were? Because not once have I said that cma arts use or dont use the mind. Never have I ever mentioned cma arts in my post. It seems my points are being lost and posters are hanging on only to the tidbits that they wish to scratch a point out of.

Like i said before, whatever the source of energy is, is fine, I never debated it. No have I made any point of it. I dont know why I had to post that 3 times.

In CMA the kiai is internal. Vocalized kiai may have it's time and place, however, dependence upon a yell is a telegraph and a weakness. If you can only be strong when you are exhaling, then as said before, I will hit you when you inhale. That is the fundamental flaw upon depending on a vocalized kiai.

Also, about the attacking on a yell. You release breathe on a strike (unless you trained differently, i trained in hung ga and wing chun and i was taught the same), many inhale/exhale at the point of impact. I dont see why you need a yell to know when someone is inhaling during a strike, its not like hes running yelling every second. And kyokushin matches, karate kumite, and tae kwon do matches yell alot, if people trained for victory to defeat their opponent on a daily basis isnt doing this, what makes it seem that the probabilty would increase outside their training? And i never seen someone hold their breathe before a kiai, kiai is supposed to be a sudden release, the last thing it would be is a big gulp of air before the kiai, thats against the principle of a kiai, its supposed to be sudden.

But now I am rehashing what has already been said. However, you clearly weren't listening. Perhaps now you will. Perhaps not. The point is the same either way.

To disagree with you, one does not have to address ALL of your points, just the pertinent ones (Those that are being disagreed with).

No one has adressed anything. My discussion wasnt even pointing to effectiveness, neither was i defending jma. I was pointing the adrenaline rush of a yell, and the initimdaiting factor, used in sports and history, so i guess we play the ignore button to those statements and instead shift this to something I was never debating nor discussed?

 

[repz]

It seems the arguments are because of poor communication.
Repz: I don't think your argument has been stated more clearly than what is quoted above.
is your point that THE benefit of kiai is the vocal shock and adrenaline dump? What position are you trying to put forward?

Yes, pretty much. From both a ryu kyu kempo and shotokan stand point, yes. I am sure there is more benefits put forth by other people, but these are the benefits that were taught to me, and which i agree with.

I also said how sports vary from strength training, discuss, use vocal like boosts for bursts of energy, and how warriors like the navajo yelled to intimidate their fighters during fights. Yelling has been known to boost lifts, me being a strength and bodybuilder have done this though the gym i am in now has made a rule that no one can yell or grunt in the gym. Police training and military training use yells to force recruits into adrenaline dumps, to break you down, and you usually yell back to build it back up before running obstacles and such, even when performing fights for your streams.

 

[JWLuiza]

And Xue, if I got it right, you are saying there are problems with relying on such techniques, not that there are no benefits...is that correct?

 

[mook jong man]

In the Wing Chun I did we were taught to just breathe naturally , no noises or yelling , just breathe naturally.

I just don't think it would be practical trying to synchronize inhaling or exhaling with striking in Wing Chun as the striking is performed very rapidly.

My late Sifu could throw approximately 10 punches a second , I think if you tried to coincide your breathing with striking at that speed you would quickly hyperventilate.

But Wing Chun is also very big on staying relaxed at all times , so anything that was not natural breathing would probably be thought of as not being conducive to staying relaxed.

 

[Xinglu]

Lol, the were? Because not once have I said that cma arts use or dont use the mind. Never have I ever mentioned cma arts in my post. It seems my points are being lost and posters are hanging on only to the tidbits that they wish to scratch a point out of.

It's not about what YOU post so much as it is how you disregard the different perspectives offered from different arts. Furthermore, The mind is merely an organ, and you seem convinced that when CMA talks about spirit or mind, that there are implications of philosophies. There are none.

Furthermore, just because people wish to disagree with parts of your posts doesn't mean the rest have been ignored. Do you really need every word to be acknowledged in typed form? Are you that insecure? I hope not.

Also, about the attacking on a yell. You release breathe on a strike (unless you trained differently, i trained in hung ga and wing chun and i was taught the same), many inhale/exhale at the point of impact. I dont see why you need a yell to know when someone is inhaling during a strike, its not like hes running yelling every second.

Every WC teacher I have ever met has stressed the importance of breathing naturally, hitting on both inhales and exhales. Having trained in CLF I can say the same was stressed there. And of course lets not forget Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji who stress this more than any other form of MA I have ever studied. All CMA. I think you misunderstood your WC teacher.

I also don't need a yell to know when a person is exhaling, how every it IS a telegraph and it creates a pattern and such patterns and telegraphs can be exploited. You seem to want to talk only about the advantages, despite that some disadvantages exist. I have no interest in biased study. What is the point? Try to look at it from all angles, or are all other points and observations other then your own inherently mute and insignificant because they are not yours?

And i never seen someone hold their breathe before a kiai, kiai is supposed to be a sudden release, the last thing it would be is a big gulp of air before the kiai, thats against the principle of a kiai, its supposed to be sudden.

I have. I have also seen them inhale strongly right before hand. I have seen all sorts of telegraphs from people who like to yell.

I was pointing the adrenaline rush of a yell, and the initimdaiting factor, used in sports and history, so i guess we play the ignore button to those statements and instead shift this to something I was never debating nor discussed?

No one disagreed with you on those points. However, adrenaline is not always something you want when fighting as it interferes with the amount of control you have.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And Xue, if I got it right, you are saying there are problems with relying on such techniques, not that there are no benefits...is that correct?

Correct.

It is the Yell that I see as a potential issue. Like I said if you can only strike or produce power in association with a yell then I am going to strike you immediately after that yell because you have no power to fight back.

But with that said, if I understand what Chris Parker described, I have no problem with "proper" training and use of kiai

 

[Marginal]

Japanese culture always makes things to seem spiritual, even the idea of concentration and focus is meant to be something spiritual.

You said yourself its for a burst of adrenaline and to instill fear, it can be easily termed as gathering spirit- energy (which can come from adrenaline) and bringing down your opponents energy (from fear, surprise from the yell). So those are usually the two advantages karate schools promote for the kiai, even from musashi's time he said it gives you energy and awes your enemy.

I always had the understanding that a kiai isn't about an adrenaline dump, it's about breaking down hesitation. Kinda like breaking. If you pull a technique, you're likely to bounce off the board. If you put everything into it, you'll go through with nominal resistance.

If you're trained to act decisively, you're more likely to react along the same lines outside of class.

 

[Xinglu]

I always had the understanding that a kiai isn't about an adrenaline dump, it's about breaking down hesitation. Kinda like breaking. If you pull a technique, you're likely to bounce off the board. If you put everything into it, you'll go through with nominal resistance.

If you're trained to act decisively, you're more likely to react along the same lines outside of class.

It isn't, hence I call it "yelling," real kiai is something more than just a shout.

 

[repz]

It's not about what YOU post so much as it is how you disregard the different perspectives offered from different arts. Furthermore, The mind is merely an organ, and you seem convinced that when CMA talks about spirit or mind, that there are implications of philosophies. There are none.

No, i didnt disregard anything, if you go back a page i mentioned it was for japanese arts, and someone replied and quoted me and said something about cma arts as if i implicated it was something else, which i didnt, and i didnt want to want into a convo outside the OPs question, especially since it wasnt my intention, and my posts had no indication of it either. This was never cma vs jma philosophies (which is my term since this is a broad term you can usually use for something dealing with various things from mind to body, this was my finding on any benefits to a vocal kiai only).

Furthermore, just because people wish to disagree with parts of your posts doesn't mean the rest have been ignored. Do you really need every word to be acknowledged in typed form? Are you that insecure? I hope not.

Well, you yourself claimed i said something about cma and being wrong about it, which was wrong so i never said such a thing. If i took it as people somehow misinterpreting it, or adding words, then yeah, i would feel my point was ignored, since I am answering the OPs question but somehow jumped to this.

And yes, i am insecure. Sometimes in school my stomach growls, even when im not hungry. It makes me feel strange, i had to share a book with a student in my night class, sheesh i felt odd, he must have been like... "wow, dude must have bowel problems". I guess in some ways my stomach was kiai'ing. Unless you think cma can help me, then i dont know why you would mention it.

Every WC teacher I have ever met has stressed the importance of breathing naturally, hitting on both inhales and exhales. Having trained in CLF I can say the same was stressed there. And of course lets not forget Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji who stress this more than any other form of MA I have ever studied. All CMA. I think you misunderstood your WC teacher.
.

I dont doubt i could be wrong, i trained in ving tsun, and they shared the same school i trained in hung ga and sanshou with, so there might be some overlap since i left ving tsun and jumped right into hung ga. But i do remember him telling when i am punching that diamond bag on the wall to breath out when you hit. But i could see how i could be wrong since it was the same school and i was in VT for only 2 months (it was the brooklyn branch if anyone is interested..

I also don't need a yell to know when a person is exhaling, how every it IS a telegraph and it creates a pattern and such patterns and telegraphs can be exploited. You seem to want to talk only about the advantages, despite that some disadvantages exist. I have no interest in biased study. What is the point? Try to look at it from all angles, or are all other points and observations other then your own inherently mute and insignificant because they are not yours?

I have. I have also seen them inhale strongly right before hand. I have seen all sorts of telegraphs from people who like to yell.



No one disagreed with you on those points. However, adrenaline is not always something you want when fighting as it interferes with the amount of control you have.

Well, i have no bias oppinion. I have more years of kickboxing (and i have heard people yell and grunt in sparring) then karate, and i myself only kiai in kata and in kumite during tests or matches, because its something i am not yet grown used to yet. I never once said i have used a kiai and it worked, i only commented that i used grunts and yells in the gym for an extra boost, other posters have mentioned other benefits, i strictly stuck to what benefit i would see without any asian philosophies of combat (as i like to term it, which i never stated or defended, nor have i said i believed in or not). I solely used samples from sports and military/history as examples.

Now, what about my stomach problem?

 

[repz]

I always had the understanding that a kiai isn't about an adrenaline dump, it's about breaking down hesitation. Kinda like breaking. If you pull a technique, you're likely to bounce off the board. If you put everything into it, you'll go through with nominal resistance.

If you're trained to act decisively, you're more likely to react along the same lines outside of class.

Yeah, there are other benefits, but they were all covered in earlier posts from other posters before mines.

I posted a finding about the link of a vocal yell to a rise in adrenaline from the person who performs the kiai (i guess i can term it as adrenaline pump?). Its earlier in my post, but of course it was lost in these posts.

 

[JWLuiza]

Correct.

It is the Yell that I see as a potential issue. Like I said if you can only strike or produce power in association with a yell then I am going to strike you immediately after that yell because you have no power to fight back.

But with that said, if I understand what Chris Parker described, I have no problem with "proper" training and use of kiai

Well that's why I don't yell on every technique