Keysi Fighting Method/Defence Lab

[veritasAequitas]

There is also now a focus more on selling a person a more expensive subscription and then having that person at some point become an instructor.

Its a giant ponzi scheme, if you look at the warrior defence lab system its just ATA krava maga with the defense lab shapes thrown in and is just a stepping stone to get to have a DNA subscription as well.

Just look at the jewelry they are selling, i'm not sure about UK weapon laws but im pretty sure that you are not allowed to hit someone with a necklace shaped like a hammer.

 

[Martial D]

punching over a persons head to hit their chest.

Saaaaaaay what?

Are you fighting guys doing hand stands?

 

[hoshin1600]

Scenario training.

I don't agree with the idea of scenario training, its develops a very fixed response to what is a dynamic situation, person does X I do Y and Z happens. This doesn't prepare you for when you do Y and Z doesn't happen.

i just wanted to clarify that the use of the term Scenario training as described above may be the way defense labs uses the term but is not the industry standard.
the common nomenclature for scenario training is creating a "scene" as in... the assailant asks you for your wallet and is holding a knife.....ready set go....defend yourself, by any means possible. its kind of a scenario based sparring not a prearranged drill.

 

[veritasAequitas]

i just wanted to clarify that the use of the term Scenario training as described above may be the way defense labs uses the term but is not the industry standard.
the common nomenclature for scenario training is creating a "scene" as in... the assailant asks you for your wallet and is holding a knife.....ready set go....defend yourself, by any means possible. its kind of a scenario based sparring not a prearranged drill.

Example i can give is.

You are seated, a person attacks you, you respond i x technique, or a person grabs you, there is very little in the way of free form sparring in the war other arts I have done would describe it.

 

[veritasAequitas]

Saaaaaaay what?

Are you fighting guys doing hand stands?

The idea is that you are standing behind a person punching over their shoulder to fight another person, you punch the face chest over their shoulder with a "scorpion punch", I still haven't found that term being used in any other art.

 

[Martial D]

The idea is that you are standing behind a person punching over their shoulder to fight another person, you punch the face chest over their shoulder with a "scorpion punch", I still haven't found that term being used in any other art.

Sounds like some serious movie-fu

 

[veritasAequitas]

Sounds like some serious movie-fu

You dont know the half of it dude.

Questionable knife defenses

Stick defense

the drill they use to make you think your existing training wont work on the streets

Youll notice that there is no liveness to any of these

How to use the frame to attack

 

[Martial D]

You dont know the half of it dude.

Questionable knife defenses

Stick defense

the drill they use to make you think your existing training wont work on the streets

Youll notice that there is no liveness to any of these

How to use the frame to attack

Well, this seems like a good way to get stabbed.

What I'd really like to see is footage of someone doing keysi/dl in an actual fight or even a sport fight, for better or worse. Even better would be to spar with one of their guys, but I've never had the opportunity.

 

[hoshin1600]

Example i can give is.

You are seated, a person attacks you, you respond i x technique, or a person grabs you, there is very little in the way of free form sparring in the war other arts I have done would describe it.

like i said that may be the DL terminology. to predetermine an attack and the response is counter productive to scenario training. scenario training is primarily a method to test how the student will respond in a given situation. it also acts as inoculation to violence and abusive language. to use scenario training properly the concept is to drill the desirable traits and actions under predetermined controlled atmosphere first, then at a later point, put the student in a scenario and see what he responds with naturally. was he able to apply what was taught?

while this clip is not self defense it shows how scenario based training is used within an industry like law enforcement.

 

[hoshin1600]

You dont know the half of it dude.

Questionable knife defenses

Stick defense

the drill they use to make you think your existing training wont work on the streets

Youll notice that there is no liveness to any of these

i am not a fan of the DL methods myself but your comments here sound more like you have an ax to grind then a subjective disagreement with their methods.
you posted a few instructional clips designed for marketing. your comments do not match the clips posted as far as i can tell. maybe i am missing something.

 

[veritasAequitas]

i am not a fan of the DL methods myself but your comments here sound more like you have an ax to grind then a subjective disagreement with their methods.
you posted a few instructional clips designed for marketing. your comments do not match the clips posted as far as i can tell. maybe i am missing something.

Its reiterating my point, its all marketing, find me 1 video of defence lab being used on a non compliant partner.

1. The knife just flies out of the guys hand
2. Stick defence, you're transferring all of the force of that stick into your neck and that's not even addressing if the person attacking has a machete.
3. The "4 man box" core nucleus of their training methods, out a person at each.point of a compass and they attack the person in the middle.


No what's malicious about that you may say? You are not allowed to try to fight your way out the first time you do it, you are told you can defend however you like. The problem with this is that its setting you up to fail unless you use the defence lab covers.


Those are not marketing clips its how you are trained, I never ever in years applied anything on a resisting partner.

I've met Andy several times at seminars and the defence lab summer camps, hesa decent guy.

My issue is with the training

 

[drop bear]

i am not a fan of the DL methods myself but your comments here sound more like you have an ax to grind then a subjective disagreement with their methods.
you posted a few instructional clips designed for marketing. your comments do not match the clips posted as far as i can tell. maybe i am missing something.

You are missing something.

 

[drop bear]

You dont know the half of it dude.

Questionable knife defenses

Stick defense

the drill they use to make you think your existing training wont work on the streets

Youll notice that there is no liveness to any of these

How to use the frame to attack

That is very tied up with its own concepts. A lot of that would be cool if it worked. I can see why they don't spar. The first person to figure out straight punches would own that gym.

 

[veritasAequitas]

That is very tied up with its own concepts. A lot of that would be cool if it worked. I can see why they don't spar. The first person to figure out straight punches would own that gym.

The style itself is very static, you're trained to keep that cover up and in a semi horse stance all the time.

Having to "load" the covers slows down movement and it doesn't take a genius long to figure out.

1. They specialise is super close quarters there is no bridging to gauge range

2. He's going to cover if I hit him so I'll fake to the body

3. What's stopping me trying up or even grabbing his arms

4. What's worse is it assume your opponent can't fight and when it does make assumptions like you get pulled to the ground by a bjj player the solution is dirty fighting.

Ie grabbing their skin or face, punching their hands when they post.

 

[veritasAequitas]

I don't understand why systems like these overcomplicate things, just teach people simply to punch and protect their heads and your on a right track I think.

I've done quite a bit of Kali the last couple of years and they do the same, overcomplicating things with a 1001 drills, maybe the drills will develop some attributes but still stickfighting on the street won't be like those drills, it will be "smack smack" and one will be still standing.

my 2 cents

I was taught defence labs stick system, it relies heavily on the covers and punching with the points of the stick.

It seemed to keep jumping from stick to I have a machete, which confused things because punching with a stick isn't efficient and neither is coving with a blade

 

[drop bear]

The style itself is very static, you're trained to keep that cover up and in a semi horse stance all the time.

Having to "load" the covers slows down movement and it doesn't take a genius long to figure out.

1. They specialise is super close quarters there is no bridging to gauge range

2. He's going to cover if I hit him so I'll fake to the body

3. What's stopping me trying up or even grabbing his arms

4. What's worse is it assume your opponent can't fight and when it does make assumptions like you get pulled to the ground by a bjj player the solution is dirty fighting.

Ie grabbing their skin or face, punching their hands when they post.

They do realise that already happens in BJJ don't they. Ho noes someone scratched, pinched, pulled hair, eye poked or dropped a knee in my groin.

That is an average roll.

 

[veritasAequitas]

They do realise that already happens in BJJ don't they. Ho noes someone scratched, pinched, pulled hair, eye poked or dropped a knee in my groin.

That is an average roll.

Andy is a purple belt under Rigan.

 

[veritasAequitas]

I always think its funny that people train with machetes, especially in the western world. They are better of training with an umbrella? Or a crowbar?

A sifu I know does exactly that, whatever you have to defend with.

Anyway I could go into the kneeling, sitting and supine mechanics but I don't think anyone is interested

 

[jobo]

No substance

The core part of the system is the use of the shapes or using the terminology of the system, "shape shifting" the problem with this is that us causes what ill refer to as "forcing", Ie forcing a technique to work because it uses the shapes.

Past the shape-shifting it takes elements from other arts and teaches them at a very surface level.


Scenario training.

I don't agree with the idea of scenario training, its develops a very fixed response to what is a dynamic situation, person does X I do Y and Z happens. This doesn't prepare you for when you do Y and Z doesn't happen.


Drilling


The majority of training is long format strings of drills, my issue with this is the lack of aliveness in the drills themselves and the assumptions the drills make.


Techniques and methodology

The ground game is very very thin BJJ with skin tears, at no point in years of training was i taught how to bridge, do basic elbow escapes, sweeps or shrimp correctly, all of the positions of bjj are covered but the escapes are reinforced with dirty fighting even in a non dominant position.

Multiple techniques rely on the pain response, this is unreliable and even worse some actually require you to have one of the defense lab rings in order to actually work.

Overcomplicated techniques that could be simpler

Examples of this are the responses to grabs, pushes against the wall, escapes from the rear chokes.


Techniques that are just flat out useless, punching the feet, punching behind your own head, punching over a persons head to hit their chest.

Those are a fair assessment, but the bulk of those could be applied as fair points to an awful lot of ma training,

 

[jobo]

The style itself is very static, you're trained to keep that cover up and in a semi horse stance all the time.

Having to "load" the covers slows down movement and it doesn't take a genius long to figure out.

1. They specialise is super close quarters there is no bridging to gauge range

2. He's going to cover if I hit him so I'll fake to the body

3. What's stopping me trying up or even grabbing his arms

4. What's worse is it assume your opponent can't fight and when it does make assumptions like you get pulled to the ground by a bjj player the solution is dirty fighting.

Ie grabbing their skin or face, punching their hands when they post.

If they are training for defence, there's a very good chance your attacker has only rudimentary fighting skills, they may be very good at what they know, they will naturally fight to their strengths,

They really shouldn't have time to figure you out,not unless they come back next week and try it ag ain, thing should be over in 30 seconds or so, if you have them in a chock hold it smashed them in the face with an elbow, there should be no way back for them, no time to learn

, in defence, there really is only close quarter, if they are out of range, they pose no threat,, you need less how to close distance and more how to maintain it, whenOr if you cant, then a fight happens.

The term dirty fighting only applies to an environment where there are rules or or a culture of fighting, resting a vicious attack is not one of those things, , " dirty" fighting is very very effective if it's dirty enough, but if the only thing you have open to you is trying to pull their ear off, then go with that