Oh and the kfm is from a movie/is movie fighting,KFM existed before the Nolan films and the KFM in batman is very different to KFM i've seen, same with the DL that is in the new Jack Reacher movies.
Keysi Fighting Method/Defence Lab
- Thread starter Serpent Raptor
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Oh and the kfm is from a movie/is movie fighting,KFM existed before the Nolan films and the KFM in batman is very different to KFM i've seen, same with the DL that is in the new Jack Reacher movies.
I don't even know where to begin with how incorrect this is. KFM existed before 2004, it was picked by the producers and then watered down.
Jack Reacher uses a watered down version of Defence Lab.
This just confirmed for me that you know little if anything about the system or how its techniques are applied.
Never once in 2 years have i been compelled to buy any merch.
It's clear you've never met the guy, he's not egotistic nor "craves attention".
Nobody has questioned these techniques when they were in JKD or Suntukan all that is different is the shapes.
I could lay into you for studying Ninjutsu and about 3 different sword forms you'll never use but i wont because I like them.
Matt Bryers
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Hey all,
I thought I might add some insight to this thread, having trained with Andy Norman, the DL Crew and many of the DL practitioners around the world. From a business, branding, etc - I have nothing to comment on.
But - in regards to Andy's talent / passion; all I can say is that Andy Norman is an innovator. He is constantly thinking, questioning, and trying to improve "what he does". Regardless if you like his system or not, I believe that there is something special and unique in the principles, mechanics, etc of Defence Lab and Keysi Fighting Method that Andy teaches.
Despite all the "showy" stuff that people associate Defence Lab and Keysi with, there is A LOT of focus on Core Body Mechanics and Footwork. More so than I originally expected. In fact working with Andy, Grek and Paul greatly helped my footwork and overall body movement tremendously. It's hard to pick-up or see through their "marketing videos", but the top guys in Defence Lab can MOVE and FIGHT. I have witnessed this myself.
Quick story:
During a late night training session I had with Andy and Paul, Andy asked me to throw a cross. Now, at this time, I have a Black Belt in Japanese Jujitsu and a Black Belt in BJJ. I have fought MMA professionally, competed in Kyokushin, extensive boxing / kickboxing training, etc. I thought I could throw a punch.
So - I threw a cross. Andy says: "no no no no, that's all wrong, look at your feet". In my mind, I was like "love this little UK guy telling me that I can't throw a punch". But, I checked my ego and listened to what he had to say. He proceeded to adjust my footwork very quickly and it made sense... I understand why what I was doing was wrong, and what he was doing was better. What that small lesson ultimately did was open my eyes to see the beauty and importance of boxing footwork. It was something that I always new was important, but it's like just glancing at a painting; compared to actually spending the time to understand the beauty of the painting.
I am no longer involved with Defence Lab, but still train with two Defence Lab Black Belts / Keysi Fighting Method Black Belts: John Leabo and Mike Simon. But - in regards to Andy Norman as a person, the man does know his stuff, and I believe that he can help people be better martial artists.
I thought I might add some insight to this thread, having trained with Andy Norman, the DL Crew and many of the DL practitioners around the world. From a business, branding, etc - I have nothing to comment on.
But - in regards to Andy's talent / passion; all I can say is that Andy Norman is an innovator. He is constantly thinking, questioning, and trying to improve "what he does". Regardless if you like his system or not, I believe that there is something special and unique in the principles, mechanics, etc of Defence Lab and Keysi Fighting Method that Andy teaches.
Despite all the "showy" stuff that people associate Defence Lab and Keysi with, there is A LOT of focus on Core Body Mechanics and Footwork. More so than I originally expected. In fact working with Andy, Grek and Paul greatly helped my footwork and overall body movement tremendously. It's hard to pick-up or see through their "marketing videos", but the top guys in Defence Lab can MOVE and FIGHT. I have witnessed this myself.
Quick story:
During a late night training session I had with Andy and Paul, Andy asked me to throw a cross. Now, at this time, I have a Black Belt in Japanese Jujitsu and a Black Belt in BJJ. I have fought MMA professionally, competed in Kyokushin, extensive boxing / kickboxing training, etc. I thought I could throw a punch.
So - I threw a cross. Andy says: "no no no no, that's all wrong, look at your feet". In my mind, I was like "love this little UK guy telling me that I can't throw a punch". But, I checked my ego and listened to what he had to say. He proceeded to adjust my footwork very quickly and it made sense... I understand why what I was doing was wrong, and what he was doing was better. What that small lesson ultimately did was open my eyes to see the beauty and importance of boxing footwork. It was something that I always new was important, but it's like just glancing at a painting; compared to actually spending the time to understand the beauty of the painting.
I am no longer involved with Defence Lab, but still train with two Defence Lab Black Belts / Keysi Fighting Method Black Belts: John Leabo and Mike Simon. But - in regards to Andy Norman as a person, the man does know his stuff, and I believe that he can help people be better martial artists.
Thanks for the insight Matt. Good to hear from an experienced person who has actually tried the art.
BTW - good to see you back. Belated congrats on earning your BJJ black belt.
BTW - good to see you back. Belated congrats on earning your BJJ black belt.
Matt Bryers
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Glad to have you back Matt!
While I am not a fan of Defense Lab or Keysi fighting methods for a lot of reasons. Mostly that revolves around personality and or lack of skill or showiness. I will say this for Andy's teacher Bob Breen. I have respect for Bob Breen! Two may people that I know are very fond of him!
While I am not a fan of Defense Lab or Keysi fighting methods for a lot of reasons. Mostly that revolves around personality and or lack of skill or showiness. I will say this for Andy's teacher Bob Breen. I have respect for Bob Breen! Two may people that I know are very fond of him!
Matt Bryers
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Bob Breen is the real deal. I did a private with him a couple of years ago in NY in knife combat. He is on a different level of understanding and ability.
Matt Bryers
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FYI - you cannot become an instructor from an online course. There is a process that you have to go through. Instructors use online resources, but ultimately they have to be certified in person... Unless that's been changed.
It is crap in my opinion to promote anyone from online training. Online training can be a great supplement for someone regularly training with an instructor but it is a poor replacement as your overall instruction method. Two many small details are missed unless the person designing it is very, very, very careful.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
It is irrelevant how careful the designer may be. It puts the onus on the student to catch his own errors, which is extremely unlikely and not a good teaching model.
Martial D
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I had actually never heard of this, so I just spent the last few hours researching it and watching some technique breakdowns and promotional material.
On it's face it looks impractical and broken. If my opponent hands are glued to his forehead, I know where his strikes are coming from. If he is taught to 'load' them in an exaggerated manner, I know when they are coming. Perfect for movie choreography I would imagine, to make sure nobody got hurt.
However I reserve final judgement until I get to spar a trained keysi guy.
On it's face it looks impractical and broken. If my opponent hands are glued to his forehead, I know where his strikes are coming from. If he is taught to 'load' them in an exaggerated manner, I know when they are coming. Perfect for movie choreography I would imagine, to make sure nobody got hurt.
However I reserve final judgement until I get to spar a trained keysi guy.
I totally agree with that. Even if the designer is incredibly careful and includes the tiny details often missed on video training the onus is absolutely 100% on the student catching their errors and correcting them. Which we both know is very hard to do without a qualified instructor there to constantly correct an error before it becomes a hard to correct bad habit!
I recently did some Defence Lab on a seminar, it's the second time I've had a go at it. It was pretty much the same as the first time, the focus was on being attacked by multiple assailants, his time in a nightclub. The instructor erroneously suggested that if you are attacked it will most likely involve more than one attacker. Clearly he hasn't done his research as the crime statiscts of England/Wales do not show his to be the case, 60-70% of all violent crimes involves one attacker (depending in which years statistics you are looking at.) So statistically the opposite is true, you are less likely to be attacked by more than one person.
Domestic violence for example has one attacker in over 90% of situations but then I doubt victims of domestic abuse (who need SD skills of recognising the warning signs of a potentially abusive relationship) fit the target market for DL. Whilst I have no specific issue with what they teach, for fighting, that is what it is for, men fighting in pubs/clubs/the street. It isn't for the wider arena of SD, so I I think it would be more accurate if they called themselves Pub Fight Lab rather than Defence Lab. As Matt says, there is a lot of focus on footwork and body mechanics; which isn't much use to your Gran if she's worried about having her handbag stolen.
Domestic violence for example has one attacker in over 90% of situations but then I doubt victims of domestic abuse (who need SD skills of recognising the warning signs of a potentially abusive relationship) fit the target market for DL. Whilst I have no specific issue with what they teach, for fighting, that is what it is for, men fighting in pubs/clubs/the street. It isn't for the wider arena of SD, so I I think it would be more accurate if they called themselves Pub Fight Lab rather than Defence Lab. As Matt says, there is a lot of focus on footwork and body mechanics; which isn't much use to your Gran if she's worried about having her handbag stolen.
Matt Bryers
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This I wholeheartedly agree with. You can LEARN a lot from online training - but promotion.... NO WAY.
veritasAequitas
Green Belt
As an ex KFM/Defence lab guy avoid it.
Perhaps you can tell us why you feel this way?
veritasAequitas
Green Belt
I studied the system KFM/Defence Lab for around 3 and a half years, there so substance to it, the sparring is lacking, its just strings of long drills and scenario training.
Having met Matt Bryar's Ii can say with certainty that his opinion has changed.
What do you mean by "no substance"? What do you feel is so inadequate in the scenario training? MartialTalk isn't twitter... you're allowed to use as many words as you need...
veritasAequitas
Green Belt
You do still have to do the instructor weekends in order to qualify as far as i know.
veritasAequitas
Green Belt
No substance
The core part of the system is the use of the shapes or using the terminology of the system, "shape shifting" the problem with this is that us causes what ill refer to as "forcing", Ie forcing a technique to work because it uses the shapes.
Past the shape-shifting it takes elements from other arts and teaches them at a very surface level.
Scenario training.
I don't agree with the idea of scenario training, its develops a very fixed response to what is a dynamic situation, person does X I do Y and Z happens. This doesn't prepare you for when you do Y and Z doesn't happen.
Drilling
The majority of training is long format strings of drills, my issue with this is the lack of aliveness in the drills themselves and the assumptions the drills make.
Techniques and methodology
The ground game is very very thin BJJ with skin tears, at no point in years of training was i taught how to bridge, do basic elbow escapes, sweeps or shrimp correctly, all of the positions of bjj are covered but the escapes are reinforced with dirty fighting even in a non dominant position.
Multiple techniques rely on the pain response, this is unreliable and even worse some actually require you to have one of the defense lab rings in order to actually work.
Overcomplicated techniques that could be simpler
Examples of this are the responses to grabs, pushes against the wall, escapes from the rear chokes.
Techniques that are just flat out useless, punching the feet, punching behind your own head, punching over a persons head to hit their chest.
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