Keysi Fighting Method/Defence Lab

[Gerry Seymour]

yes i did, perhaps not as you wished,

its now gone full circle, bjj has only been tested against other bjjers and not at all fir self defence,
so both systems are untested for self defence, your anecdotes don't count as a scientific test

Okay, so there's one statement in there that is fully incorrect, Jobo. BJJ has been frequently tested against non-BJJ folks. Early MMA had that. Add in all the challenge matches the Gracies used early in getting a name for the art. Today, BJJ is not going to get much testing against folks with no BJJ experience...but that's hardly making the test easier.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

for people to claim its good for self defence, then it has to be good for all bjjers, not just a few, if they can't all beat a 300lbs monster, then a vids of a few people doing so are meaningless as proof of its effectiveness

Poppycock.

 

[jobo]

There are lots of videos of actual fights and attacks that end up with someone in mount. Just because nobody has ever gotten me in one doesn't mean it can't happen. If we took that logic, most folks should never train any self-defense, since most haven't been attacked or in a fight since elementary school. Mind you, training to avoid being in mount is arguably wiser, but that doesn't change the logic dramatically.

But most arts don't teach it, so if the lack of us a problem with dl, it is so with all( most) the striking arts.
And it's fair to say that if you end up with someone say on you, something went very wrong with what came before

 

[Gerry Seymour]

to be consistent gains you need to gain consistently, the moment you don't gain then your gains are inconsistent??????

We can make any human gain "consistency" look inconsistent by simply using too small a time period for measurement. We know that certain exercises consistently build muscle. But not really, if we measured muscle gain hour by hour.

 

[jobo]

Okay, so there's one statement in there that is fully incorrect, Jobo. BJJ has been frequently tested against non-BJJ folks. Early MMA had that. Add in all the challenge matches the Gracies used early in getting a name for the art. Today, BJJ is not going to get much testing against folks with no BJJ experience...but that's hardly making the test easier.

Your always late to the party so I have to repeat points I've already made.

You can't take the gracias as a measure of bjj, any more than you can Bruce Lee for king fu, you need some sort of median to judge it off, but doesn't not get used( mu ch) in mma, with out it being augmented with some kicking punching and defence skills, so it's not bjj, and anyway those who have progressed it as far as mmA aRe not typical bjjer,

If they are operating in weight classes and no one is attacking them with a chair or even a punch, then it's carry over to sd, is unproven

 

[Deleted member 39489]

So popping ligaments isn't painful ?

Skin tears
Torn ligament


One causes next to no lasting injury, one will likely require physical therapy.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So popping ligaments isn't painful ?

For most people it is, but the technique doesn’t rely on them complying due to that pain. “Pain compliance” - your words.

If you break someone's arm and they are too hyped up on adrenaline or drugs to give up, then their ability to use that limb effectively will still be compromised.

 

[jobo]

For most people it is, but the technique doesn’t rely on them complying due to that pain. “Pain compliance” - your words.

If you break someone's arm and they are too hyped up on adrenaline or drugs to give up, then their ability to use that limb effectively will still be compromised.

Do they actually break arms in bjj, or do they use pain to get a submission ?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Arm bars rely on pain compliance and you seem very fond of those

Arm bars can do more than just cause pain. They can damage joints. Not only is that a larger pain (so more likely to be effective for pain compliance), but if the compliance doesn't occur, that arm is significantly less effective. Much better than just relying on the pain (I had an early training partner who took a guy's shoulder completely out of joint and the guy kept fighting, apparently not really noticing the torn ligaments at the time).

 

[Deleted member 39489]

Your always late to the party so I have to repeat points I've already made.

You can't take the gracias as a measure of bjj, any more than you can Bruce Lee for king fu, you need some sort of median to judge it off, but doesn't not get used( mu ch) in mma, with out it being augmented with some kicking punching and defence skills, so it's not bjj, and anyway those who have progressed it as far as mmA aRe not typical bjjer,

If they are operating in weight classes and no one is attacking them with a chair or even a punch, then it's carry over to sd, is unproven

Gracie combatives coveres punch and kick defence.

What do I gain doing defense lab ground system instead?

 

[jobo]

Skin tears
Torn ligament


One causes next to no lasting injury, one will likely require physical therapy.

I thought he was cutting them up bad with his ninja ring ? , is mayor lacerations to the leCk not a reasonably lasting injury,

How many actual ligaments have you ripped in bJj, ?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Do they actually break arms in bjj, or do they use pain to get a submission ?

If the recipient of the arm bar doesn't tap and doesn't escape from the arm bar, then they are prone to getting their arm broken. (Actually the more common injury is a torn ligament. Achieving a full break takes really good technique.)

Most people tap rather than take the injury and have to spend weeks out of commission while they heal up, but there's always someone who has to learn their lesson the hard way.

Most experienced BJJ practitioners will not give up in a serious match just due to pain. There has to be the threat of real injury.

 

[jobo]

Arm bars can do more than just cause pain. They can damage joints. Not only is that a larger pain (so more likely to be effective for pain compliance), but if the compliance doesn't occur, that arm is significantly less effective. Much better than just relying on the pain (I had an early training partner who took a guy's shoulder completely out of joint and the guy kept fighting, apparently not really noticing the torn ligaments at the time).

So larger pain is good, smaller pain is bad?

 

[jobo]

If the recipient of the arm bar doesn't tap and doesn't escape from the arm bar, then they are prone to getting their arm broken. (Actually the more common injury is a torn ligament. Achieving a full break takes really good technique.)

Most people tap rather than take the injury and have to spend weeks out of commission while they heal up, but there's always someone who has to learn their lesson the hard way.

Most experienced BJJ practitioners will not give up in a serious match just due to pain. There has to be the threat of real injury.

So they tap as Pain compliance, yet strangely it's not a pain compliance technique!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But most arts don't teach it, so if the lack of us a problem with dl, it is so with all( most) the striking arts.
And it's fair to say that if you end up with someone say on you, something went very wrong with what came before

I actually consider it a problem if any curriculum doesn't teach at least one (preferably two) effective, technical (not pain) mount escapes, if that school's teaching is intended for self-defense. And, yes, if they end up on top, something went wrong. And things sometimes go wrong, regardless of skill level. When my legs are being crappy, my chances of ending up on my back go way up. Same on poor surfaces.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So larger pain is good, smaller pain is bad?

Where pain is being used, bigger pain is more likely to be effective, but damage is more effective than just pain. Put the two together, and you get another advantage.

 

[jobo]

I actually consider it a problem if any curriculum doesn't teach at least one (preferably two) effective, technical (not pain) mount escapes, if that school's teaching is intended for self-defense. And, yes, if they end up on top, something went wrong. And things sometimes go wrong, regardless of skill level. When my legs are being crappy, my chances of ending up on my back go way up. Same on poor surfaces.

But they do teach an anti mount technique, the complaint is it not very good rather than that font have one, but then bjj, think anything but bjj, isn't very good

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So they tap as Pain compliance, yet strangely it's not a pain compliance technique!

In training (and competition), we comply by pain. That same pain is unreliable under heavy adrenal load (both fight and flight responses).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But they do teach an anti mount technique, the complaint is it not very good rather than that font have one, but then bjj, think anything but bjj, isn't very good

Yeah, that's why I included the caveat that it must be technically effective. Pain compliance isn't all that useful. Most pain-only techniques I can resist pretty nicely, and I'm no tough guy. I've had partners who - even in casual training - simply didn't respond to the level of pain deliverable with most pain compliance. They'd tap out to avoid injury (though I've seen more than one neglect to do so, and receive the actual injury), but not because of any pain level.

 

[jobo]

Where pain is being used, bigger pain is more likely to be effective, but damage is more effective than just pain. Put the two together, and you get another advantage.

But the cutting up ring,( are you actually follow the debate) causes both damage and pain, it's a pain compliance technique, as are arm bars, you can say arM e bars are more effective, but you can Deny that the other is a both painful and damaging