Kenpo 5.0 Commercial

[girlbug2]

i know one thing, if a kenpo person hit someone and he go's to the ground from being hit, he should not be getting up any time soon,and yes i know what i'm talking about,because i had to do it a couple times in life.
now if someone tried to hit you, and you have to do something?and he go's down and stays there and don't try to get up, and you go over and kick him in the throat,well yes you then have a big problem, you see (in NJ) when the threat is no longer there and you still hit the person, you may very well have to come up with bail money.:soapbox:

The person who is being attacked must make the determination on his/her own when the threat is no longer there. In my case, I am not that fast of a runner. If I were attacked, I would consider the threat to be no longer there when I could reasonably get away without the fear of being chased down again for round 2.

 

[RevIV]

it gets back to the whole idea of "I knew how to poke a guy's eyes out and crush his testicles before I ever walked in the dojo, so what am I paying to learn"

Accuracy.

-DVC-

 

[kidswarrior]

In my own limited experience and understanding, redundancy or overkill have always been tenets of Ken/mpo techniques. How and when the strikes stop is where judgment--and maybe luck--comes in. That judgment imho is the responsibility of the instructor to instill over time as part of the art. At least, as an instructor, I assume it as such.

 

[thetruth]

I think as long as, deep down, you are happy to go to prison if you badly injure someone or kill them then so be it. If you knock a guy to the ground and then kick him in the throat to make sure he doesn't, well you had better make sure he was getting up almost at the time you kicked or it is jail for you. I think after someone is down well an ankle or arm stomp are probably a better option. Taking to a man singing punches witha knife(as I said before) is just plain crap and I wouldn't send my kid there on that image alone. I like kenpo and did it for a few years but I don't remember any knife vs unarmed attacker scenarios.


Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[JTKenpo]

i know one thing, if a kenpo person hit someone and he go's to the ground from being hit, he should not be getting up any time soon,and yes i know what i'm talking about,because i had to do it a couple times in life.
now if someone tried to hit you, and you have to do something?and he go's down and stays there and don't try to get up, and you go over and kick him in the throat,well yes you then have a big problem, you see (in NJ) when the threat is no longer there and you still hit the person, you may very well have to come up with bail money.:soapbox:

George,
I didn't kick him, I stumbled on him trying to get away in fear of my life.

 

[DavidCC]

Ok lets take it out of the kids class, you teach your adults and you yourself would stare down an attacker/attackers and wait for them to strike first? Then you are right you probably wouldn't make it through the initial attack. Three men are standing in front of you demanding your life, who hits who first? I do, and I contemplate my morality as I live to go home to my family.

Well I'm not sure what you are paying for, according to the website in your signature you are paying for Kempo yet you say that most Kempo teaches you material that wouldn't get you through the initial attack.

I don't know what gives you the idea that I would wait around for someone to hit me. In my state (and most others I am sure) "Assault" is the making of a credible threat of violence and having the means and opportunity to carry it out. So I am assaulted before the first punch is thrown and so even a pre-emptive strike is self-defense when you have been assaulted.

Now if you know the guy is going to hit you do you need some fancy kempo technique?

We teach that the techniques are designed to get you out of bad situations - situations where you are surprised and must first survive the initial attack, single or multiple strikes. I look at most SKK techniques and I don't see any attempt to prevent or protect from follow-up strikes (please start another thread if you want to to discuss that!, its a great topic ), or to deal with the forward momentum/pressure and possibility of a grappling or take-down follow-up. So that is why I say a lot of kempo that is taught will not get you through the initial attack.

If your training puts you in control of the situation, in control of the attacker's ability to continue the attack, and in control of our own fear and adrenaline rush, then you should have the ability to control the amount of damage that you apply - anywhere from a control lock, to a knockout shot to a sensitive target, to a lethal strike or choke. if you have no control of the attacker and no control of yourself then your best option is to cause as much damage as possible as quikcly as possible and hope there are no witnesses or the County Prosecutor is on your side.

"hurt them bad and keep hurting them bad until they stop" this is what we teach in our Women's Self Defense classes since they are designed to be very short classes and the ladies have no time to develop a deeper level of skill required for more modulated (responsible and accountable) responses. It is our opinion that the legal system is much more likely to be lenient with a young woman who blinded a rapist than it would with a young man, a martial artist, who blinds or maims a guy in a street fight.

Big Picture : Self Defense is all about continuing your life the way you want to live it; and even if you survive an assault (and battery) if you have to get invovled with the legal system, well, who wants that in their life LOL??

 

[arnisador]

George,
I didn't kick him, I stumbled on him trying to get away in fear of my life.

There are cameras everywhere...and clips like this showing it's an intentional, rehearsed technique.

 

[JTKenpo]

There are cameras everywhere...and clips like this showing it's an intentional, rehearsed technique.

Paranoid much? Um you are a FMA guy right? So tell me how do you legally defend yourself with a two foot machedi?

 

[arnisador]

I rarely have one with me. We have emoty hand techniques too.

 

[JTKenpo]

I don't know what gives you the idea that I would wait around for someone to hit me. In my state (and most others I am sure) "Assault" is the making of a credible threat of violence and having the means and opportunity to carry it out. So I am assaulted before the first punch is thrown and so even a pre-emptive strike is self-defense when you have been assaulted.

Now if you know the guy is going to hit you do you need some fancy kempo technique?

We teach that the techniques are designed to get you out of bad situations - situations where you are surprised and must first survive the initial attack, single or multiple strikes. I look at most SKK techniques and I don't see any attempt to prevent or protect from follow-up strikes (please start another thread if you want to to discuss that!, its a great topic ), or to deal with the forward momentum/pressure and possibility of a grappling or take-down follow-up. So that is why I say a lot of kempo that is taught will not get you through the initial attack.

If your training puts you in control of the situation, in control of the attacker's ability to continue the attack, and in control of our own fear and adrenaline rush, then you should have the ability to control the amount of damage that you apply - anywhere from a control lock, to a knockout shot to a sensitive target, to a lethal strike or choke. if you have no control of the attacker and no control of yourself then your best option is to cause as much damage as possible as quikcly as possible and hope there are no witnesses or the County Prosecutor is on your side.

"hurt them bad and keep hurting them bad until they stop" this is what we teach in our Women's Self Defense classes since they are designed to be very short classes and the ladies have no time to develop a deeper level of skill required for more modulated (responsible and accountable) responses. It is our opinion that the legal system is much more likely to be lenient with a young woman who blinded a rapist than it would with a young man, a martial artist, who blinds or maims a guy in a street fight.

Big Picture : Self Defense is all about continuing your life the way you want to live it; and even if you survive an assault (and battery) if you have to get invovled with the legal system, well, who wants that in their life LOL??

To summarize, no one attack deals with everything (no matter what system you study). Another reason to continue your training (maybe thats what you are paying for). Hmmm sounds like a good reason to know multiple techniques on each side of the body, but we have already covered that haven't we, also might be beneficial to know how to start and stop techniques and insert other techniques what do they call that again ahhh yes grafting is it, but we have covered that too. David I don't intend to change your mind about anything and I have said before your conflicting views within posts make it difficult to know where you are coming from. Again you are bashing the system in which you proudly confess in your own signature.

 

[JTKenpo]

I rarely have one with me. We have emoty hand techniques too.

nevermind

 

[JTKenpo]

"We teach that the techniques are designed to get you out of bad situations - situations where you are surprised and must first survive the initial attack, single or multiple strikes. I look at most SKK techniques and I don't see any attempt to prevent or protect from follow-up strikes (please start another thread if you want to to discuss that!, its a great topic ), or to deal with the forward momentum/pressure and possibility of a grappling or take-down follow-up. So that is why I say a lot of kempo that is taught will not get you through the initial attack."

Maybe the way you have been taught but let me ask you this, would Doc agree that SL4 follows that logic?

How many SKK teachers have you had?

You know what, nevermind have fun.

 

[Brian Jones]

Doesn't anyone thin it a bit premature to judge someone's morals or teachign based ona commercial? remeber what a commercial does, it sells a product. Or at least is designed to whet your appetite. I am sure there are reasons behind the technique. Besides are't we who teach "dance of death" all the way through the extension being a bit sanctimoneous talking someone else and "overkill"?

Brian Jones

 

[DavidCC]

"We teach that the techniques are designed to get you out of bad situations - situations where you are surprised and must first survive the initial attack, single or multiple strikes. I look at most SKK techniques and I don't see any attempt to prevent or protect from follow-up strikes (please start another thread if you want to to discuss that!, its a great topic ), or to deal with the forward momentum/pressure and possibility of a grappling or take-down follow-up. So that is why I say a lot of kempo that is taught will not get you through the initial attack."

Maybe the way you have been taught but let me ask you this, would Doc agree that SL4 follows that logic?

Well, in case you ahven't cehcked out of this discussion, I will answer that:
Would Doc agree?? I can't speak for him, but where do you think I got these ideas from??? The SKK that my teacher teaches is more and more influenced by the ideas and advice that we get from Doc.

 

[DavidCC]

To summarize, no one attack deals with everything (no matter what system you study). Another reason to continue your training (maybe thats what you are paying for). Hmmm sounds like a good reason to know multiple techniques on each side of the body, but we have already covered that haven't we, also might be beneficial to know how to start and stop techniques and insert other techniques what do they call that again ahhh yes grafting is it, but we have covered that too. David I don't intend to change your mind about anything and I have said before your conflicting views within posts make it difficult to know where you are coming from. Again you are bashing the system in which you proudly confess in your own signature.

what conflicting views?
I believe it is important to be able to defend yourself form attacks with the left or right, but I don't believe that memorizing mirror-image techniques is the best way to do that. Is that what you mean?

I believe the study of grafting of techniques can be useful in training position recognition; but for the most part I think spending time studying grafting is just fingerpainting. Also a well-designed combination takes advantage of specific sequences of action that support each other, and grafting something into the middle or end of a sequence generally reduces the effectiveness of that sequence. How many of the grafts you like would really be practical IF your attacker is responding realistically to yoru actions? That's the problem I see with most grafts - they only work with spread-eagle-statue ukes.

I am very clear in my own mind with what I believe, perhaps my writing is not so clear, if I seem to be contradicting myself. I'd appreciate if you pointed out some of my contradictions, my bet is that you just didn't get or didn't like what I had to say.

Yeah. I'll bash my own system, becasue my ego is not tied to having people believe that "my system" is great, so I have no qualms about talking about its weaknesses. It never was much more than streetfighting tricks anyway, even before Gascon bailed on Emperado, before a purple belt named Pesare left Gascon, before a Shodan named Villari granted himself a 10th, before Charlie Mattera decided that what he learned from Fred V was too hard for soccer Moms and 7 year olds... and now it's mostly just dojo dancing a la USSD.

The only hope I see is that people like the representatives of SKK on this board are working hard to distance us from that crap, but numerically the USSD blackbelts who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag far outnumber the independent schools / teachers / students who actually train hard for reality.

So there ya go, I'm sure I'll get some neg rep for that rant ROFL. But what do I know, I'm just a green belt and probably will remain so forever :soapbox:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

most kenpo teachers don;t seem to care aoubt legal ramifications.

But its ok becasue most of the stuff they teach won't let them survive past the inital assault anyway LOL!!

bwa-AH-HAH-HAH!!!

Friggin birlliant, Mr. Carnley.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Accuracy.

-DVC-

Hang on. We are arguing that accuracy is preferable to mauling...but we must practice mauling, because we may lack the accuracy, necessitating fallback positions based on planned failure?

I practice target shooting, so I can shoot the guy, but really only ever club him with my .45, cuz I might miss if I actually start squeezing off rounds.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Just to be clear, allow me to pontificate a moment on techniques.

Each Self-Defense technique in kenpo is designed NOT as a specific counter to a specific attack. Rather, techniques provide scenario-based response solutions that illustrate for the student what it looks like to apply certain basics, concepts, and principles of combative motion to plausible contexts.

Many kenpo SD Techs get to 12-16 moves long before closing. These are not meant to be overkill or overskill techs. They are, again, merely chalkboards on which the lessons are drawn. The chalkboard, folks, is not the lesson. If it is, then let's just take the chalkboards coaches use to teach their teams the plays, and set the boards on the field to do the actual playing. Makes about as much darned sense as ragging on the choreography of a technique.

Settling weight into basics; mobility within certain relative positions; angles of attack in application of basics from different positions; force multipliers; balance; coordination; etc. One of my favorite quotes from Mr. Parker, modified, is that techniques aren't to teach you a move, but to teach you HOW to move; not to teach you what to think, but teach you HOW to think.

Each technique has a theme, concepts, and principles. A good instructor will use the technique as a mini-lab to elucidate these ideas, making them salient for the student, then allowing the student to develop an experiential understanding through practice and rehearsal.

Haven't watched the vid in the OP; prolly won't. Doesn't matter. It's not a technique designed to teach the user how to hack up an unarmed opponent; you don't really need any training for that...we have millennia of bladed combat deaths by killers who never even heard of kenpo. What it will do is provide opportunities for exploring the concepts and principles of defensive motion, in static and changing contexts.

Missing from many kenpo lineages is the concept of managing or responding to force escalations. Technique formulations would likely have served modern life and litigation better if they all followed algorhythms involving attempts at de-escalation, then evasive maneuvering, then maintaining an opponent, then injuring them to a stop point (given the chance to quit), then either further putting the beat down on the guy, or making it easier for him to walk away, depending on their choice.

One of the first techniques in the Parker system has us using deadly force against what could just be a surprise shoulder rub from an amorous acquaintence. Seem a little funky to anyone?

 

[arnisador]

Doesn't anyone thin it a bit premature to judge someone's morals or teachign based ona commercial?

If someone is putting that in a commercial to air on TV in hopes of attracting students, I feel I can comment on that person's judgment. They may teach a great and ethical class but this is not good business sense and doesn't present a good image of the arts, in my opinion...and that affects all martial arts businesses, fairly or not.


(By the way, I do appreciate the irony of talking about bad business sense for a small business as we prepare to bail the experts with good business sense out to the tune of $700 billion.)

 

[thetruth]

No one has mentioned what I referred to earlier. So do you kenpo guys practice techniques knife vs unarmed?? Or is that part of the video ridiculous overkill??

Cheers
Sam:asian: