Jeff Speakman and Kenpo 5.0

[OneKickWonder]

I dont think his intent was to produce outstanding grapplers. I think his intent is to orient students to the ground not so that they can dominate there but to make them comfortable there so they can still be effective. Learning the basics of grappling and then learning how to adapt kenpo basics to the ground is a good idea i think. Most grappling arts in present time teach grappling as a sport form, not a self defense. Kenpo is made for self defense. Using tactics like an eagle's claw to the throat or a hammerfist to the groin are illegal in competition but perfectly ok if you are attacked and dragged to the ground. Kenpo 5.0 reminds people of this fact.

 

[Danjo]

Doc,
Does SL4 have techniques that allow one to deal with takedowns and escapes from the ground? I know Kajukenbo does since it's regularly covered By Prof. Bishop in our classes.

I'm trying to figure out how original this idea is to Kenpo. Seems like it would have been covered before 5.0.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

my instructor had a copy of the demo he sent out to some of his akks guys and honestly his grappling seemed to be less than impressive. i will give him credit for trying to be innovative and i do believe grappling is something that is worthwhile for any martial artist but if his demo is any indication kenpo 5.0 will not be worth learning. Much better off learning how to grapple from one of the traditional grappling arts, that shouldnt be a shocker

Agreed.

 

[DavidCC]

Doc,
Does SL4 have techniques that allow one to deal with takedowns and escapes from the ground? I know Kajukenbo does since it's regularly covered By Prof. Bishop in our classes.

I'm trying to figure out how original this idea is to Kenpo. Seems like it would have been covered before 5.0.

I can't speak for anyone who is regularly at MSU, but I can tell you my 1st hand experience there.

While at MSU I saw them working on a technique wherein the Kenpo student was on the ground and the attacker was standing over them striking downwards. Since we do some JJ at my school I had to give that a try. So I volunteered to be the attacker and before I could spell "GnP" I was on my back in a painful wrist-lock / elbow compression / cross-face (all at the same time) under side control. He could have broke my wrist, dislocated my elbow, and gouged out my eye with very little I could do about it (thereby effecting an escape LOL)

Once you can do a horse-stance up to the SL-4 specification you can resist a _significant_ amount of forward pressure. Is that sufficient to avoid a decent single or double leg takedown (pressure + leverage)? Not by itself. But, it gives you more options on where to go from there. You've got 2 choices - avoid or resist. Sprawl = avoid...

Grappling is just a "range" Control your depth LOL

 

[Doc]

Doc,
Does SL4 have techniques that allow one to deal with takedowns and escapes from the ground? I know Kajukenbo does since it's regularly covered By Prof. Bishop in our classes.

I'm trying to figure out how original this idea is to Kenpo. Seems like it would have been covered before 5.0.

Hello sir. Yes these things are an integral part of the Kenpo curriculum, and always has been. However, much of these elements were NOT included in the commercial curriculum based on "motion."

When you go back to those who were around before the current crop of "seniors," you'll find teachers like the late Dave German, Dan inosanto, Dave Hebler, Steve LaBounty, Steve Hearring, Jim Grumwald, etc who remember when breakfall training was a part of 'basics' in preparation for the throws, takedowns, and groundwork.

A visit to old film of Ed Parker performing techniques with Chuck Sullivan in the late fifties, will show all of the techniques ended with a takedown and/or breakfall.

Even a reasonable examination of the commercial motion system curriculum indicates 3/4's of the techniques are in concept, for some form of 'hands on' grappling that, unfortunately are never explored by the bulk of its instructors because they were never taught how to deal with these technique responses.

However, I have Parker video as recently as the early seventies, showing 'breakfalls and rolls' were still included in the 'basics' for the commercial system. But, these things proved to be 'too physical' and limited the market potential and were dropped by most.

That's not to suggest that very physical kenpo schools do not exist. Take a stroll down to Bob White's and bring your heavy duty cup, mouthguard, and your "I know I'm going to get tagged" attitude, if you want to survive. Some of the old "Ironworker" teachers still teach these things.

I submit Jeff is just attempting to fill the holes in his own training as well as find a marketing niche for information neither Parker or I gave him. Considering the commercial systems general weaknesses, it's probably not a bad idea, if implimented correctly.

In my teaching, these things are taken for granted. As an example, last night students were required to perform techniques on padded attackers who were instructed to ignore all controlled strikes and attempt to grapple and smother the defender. They were oblidged to use 'torso contact only' to control the depth of the attacker and finish the technique sequence regardless of the intensity of the attempted 'grappler.' No one left their feet, and al completed the technique sequences.

 

[Kenpodoc]

In my teaching, these things are taken for granted. As an example, last night students were required to perform techniques on padded attackers who were instructed to ignore all controlled strikes and attempt to grapple and smother the defender. They were oblidged to use 'torso contact only' to control the depth of the attacker and finish the technique sequence regardless of the intensity of the attempted 'grappler.' No one left their feet, and al completed the technique sequences.

Now I'm really jealous. sounds like a great class.

Jeff

 

[Danjo]

Hello sir. Yes these things are an integral part of the Kenpo curriculum, and always has been. However, much of these elements were NOT included in the commercial curriculum based on "motion."

When you go back to those who were around before the current crop of "seniors," you'll find teachers like the late Dave German, Dan inosanto, Dave Hebler, Steve LaBounty, Steve Hearring, Jim Grumwald, etc who remember when breakfall training was a part of 'basics' in preparation for the throws, takedowns, and groundwork.

A visit to old film of Ed Parker performing techniques with Chuck Sullivan in the late fifties, will show all of the techniques ended with a takedown and/or breakfall.

Even a reasonable examination of the commercial motion system curriculum indicates 3/4's of the techniques are in concept, for some form of 'hands on' grappling that, unfortunately are never explored by the bulk of its instructors because they were never taught how to deal with these technique responses.

However, I have Parker video as recently as the early seventies, showing 'breakfalls and rolls' were still included in the 'basics' for the commercial system. But, these things proved to be 'too physical' and limited the market potential and were dropped by most.

That's not to suggest that very physical kenpo schools do not exist. Take a stroll down to Bob White's and bring your heavy duty cup, mouthguard, and your "I know I'm going to get tagged" attitude, if you want to survive. Some of the old "Ironworker" teachers still teach these things.

I submit Jeff is just attempting to fill the holes in his own training as well as find a marketing niche for information neither Parker or I gave him. Considering the commercial systems general weaknesses, it's probably not a bad idea, if implimented correctly.

In my teaching, these things are taken for granted. As an example, last night students were required to perform techniques on padded attackers who were instructed to ignore all controlled strikes and attempt to grapple and smother the defender. They were oblidged to use 'torso contact only' to control the depth of the attacker and finish the technique sequence regardless of the intensity of the attempted 'grappler.' No one left their feet, and al completed the technique sequences.

Thanks Doc, Somehow I knew this would be your answer.

 

[Tenguru]

Most grappling arts in present time teach grappling as a sport form, not a self defense. Kenpo is made for self defense. Using tactics like an eagle's claw to the throat or a hammerfist to the groin are illegal in competition but perfectly ok if you are attacked and dragged to the ground. Kenpo 5.0 reminds people of this fact.

I'm not sure if you are implying that people who compete within rule sets don't know the difference between sport and streetfighting. I would bet that someone trained in grappling would not have a problem eye poking, eagle clawing, thumb to the temple, etc, in a street fight. In fact, knowing how to grapple would probably allow them to get into better positions to apply those type of attacks.

 

[OneKickWonder]

I'm not sure if you are implying that people who compete within rule sets don't know the difference between sport and streetfighting. I would bet that someone trained in grappling would not have a problem eye poking, eagle clawing, thumb to the temple, etc, in a street fight. In fact, knowing how to grapple would probably allow them to get into better positions to apply those type of attacks.

I am not saying that they would not know how or not be comfortable. The BJJ schools that I have attended did not practice any kind of striking at all. To a Kenpo practitioner fighting "dirty" for self preservation comes as instinct because that is what we are taught from the very beginning. But to the people who dont practice this, they may not think about it. If they do think about it then I am sure they will not hesitate to use it, but it would probably be more instinct for them to reach for a submission or choke, which is also an effective manuever, unless you have a finger in your eye. All I am saying is that Mr. Speakman's training makes it more natural and instinctive to transition with these strikes and teq.s on the ground.

 

[MJS]

I am not saying that they would not know how or not be comfortable. The BJJ schools that I have attended did not practice any kind of striking at all. To a Kenpo practitioner fighting "dirty" for self preservation comes as instinct because that is what we are taught from the very beginning. But to the people who dont practice this, they may not think about it. If they do think about it then I am sure they will not hesitate to use it, but it would probably be more instinct for them to reach for a submission or choke, which is also an effective manuever, unless you have a finger in your eye. All I am saying is that Mr. Speakman's training makes it more natural and instinctive to transition with these strikes and teq.s on the ground.

Good post! I've said similar things in the past. If the old saying, "You fight like you train" holds true, then one would think that if someone was not training for an eye poke, but instead more for the submission game, doing that eye poke is not going to be second nature.

Of course, I think that some are missing the point of what Speakman is doing. He program is, AFAIK, not geared towards submissions, but instead, how to get out of a bad position. The last place I want to be in a fight, is on the ground, so I'm going to want to get back to my feet asap.

Mike

 

[Doc]

... If the old saying, "You fight like you train" holds true, then one would think that if someone was not training for an eye poke, but instead more for the submission game, doing that eye poke is not going to be second nature.

Correct sir. However more importantly, by ignoring certain facets of a street fight because it is not allowed or a part of competition lulls one into defensive lapses. Consider how many submission moves, locks, holds, etc you would not do if you knew up front that your attacker was allowed to thrust his thumbs as deep into your eye socket as he could. Or even more simply, how many of these things could you do and still avoid being bitten? Something to think about, yes?

Grapplers are good at what they do for a couple of reasons. From day one they train to be physically dominant and effective. There is no, "I coulda got you in a lock." You can either do it or you can't, and their opponant is actively physically resisting them. There is no physical ambiguity about anything they do. They prove it, as opposed to "I coulda exploded your speen with my devastating reverse punch to the body." On the other hand, because of this method of training, much is excluded or never considered in their quest for dominance in competition. Bottom line, if you want to learn how to not get bitten or eye poked, you need to train in an environment where the possibility is considered AND accounted for.

 

[MJS]

Correct sir. However more importantly, by ignoring certain facets of a street fight because it is not allowed or a part of competition lulls one into defensive lapses. Consider how many submission moves, locks, holds, etc you would not do if you knew up front that your attacker was allowed to thrust his thumbs as deep into your eye socket as he could. Or even more simply, how many of these things could you do and still avoid being bitten? Something to think about, yes?

Grapplers are good at what they do for a couple of reasons. From day one they train to be physically dominant and effective. There is no, "I coulda got you in a lock." You can either do it or you can't, and their opponant is actively physically resisting them. There is no physical ambiguity about anything they do. They prove it, as opposed to "I coulda exploded your speen with my devastating reverse punch to the body." On the other hand, because of this method of training, much is excluded or never considered in their quest for dominance in competition. Bottom line, if you want to learn how to not get bitten or eye poked, you need to train in an environment where the possibility is considered AND accounted for.

Points taken sir.:asian:

 

[Rich_Hale]

Jeff was a classmate of mine at Larry's for a number of years and Doc, as usual, laid out the basic info exactly right.

All I can add is that I was there when Jeff trained for and received his black, under Larry and that he did have a close relationship with Mr. Parker, even before Larry left the Santa Monica school.

Jeff was always a great workout partner and a good friend. Considering all his involvement in Kenpo, I can appreciate him trying to add a little something of his own to the art.

Keep in mind that Jeff isn't trying to change Mr. Parker's art, as Larry and Mr. Parker taught it to him, he is just doing what a lot of us are doing - which is trying to keep up with our potential opponent's skill sets.

Jeff just happens to be a more famous than the rest of us, so let's not be overly critical of him, just because he is so well known.

I'll post one of our Thursday night group photos - in a separate post, so you can pick out some of the group. It should be easier that the last one Doc had me post.

 

[Kenpo1981]

I think we need to realize that groundfighting is grappling, but all grappling is not groundfighting. I think Mr. Speakman is taking kenpo in a new and useful direction by including ground defenses. He just got into it so let's give him a chance to work on it, form it, revise, etc.

I have studied some groundfighting in the past and I can assure you it is for real and changes a fight dramatically. I'm a retired police officer who used groundfighting in the street where necessary and it worked great. That's real world, not practice on the mats. I used standup kenpo stuff, too, on the streets, for real, not practice on the mats.

There's a lot of knowledge out there and some of it is useful to graft into kenpo. There's nothing wrong with knowledge and adaptibility. Mr. Speakman is on a good road. Let's not bash him for trying something different. It took Mr. Parker a lot of years to bring kenpo to where it was when he passed from where it was as he received it. I salute Mr. Speakman for his efforts. Keep kenpo a brotherhood, not a bunch of backstabbing naysayers.

 

[Monadnock]

Jeff was a classmate of mine at Larry's for a number of years and Doc, as usual, laid out the basic info exactly right.

All I can add is that I was there when Jeff trained for and received his black, under Larry and that he did have a close relationship with Mr. Parker, even before Larry left the Santa Monica school.

Jeff was always a great workout partner and a good friend. Considering all his involvement in Kenpo, I can appreciate him trying to add a little something of his own to the art.

Keep in mind that Jeff isn't trying to change Mr. Parker's art, as Larry and Mr. Parker taught it to him, he is just doing what a lot of us are doing - which is trying to keep up with our potential opponent's skill sets.

Jeff just happens to be a more famous than the rest of us, so let's not be overly critical of him, just because he is so well known.

I'll post one of our Thursday night group photos - in a separate post, so you can pick out some of the group. It should be easier that the last one Doc had me post.

Or trying to stay ahead

I also think it's great he has continued to evolve his Kenpo. I believe that was Mr. Parker's intentions. Kenpo was never a closed box.

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

Hi everyone,

As someone currently training in 5.0 here in Oz (the other end of the world), I'd like to reassure all concerned that there are no video-ranking certifications. Nada. Zip. Thankfully, to progress in our art, we still need to actually practice with a qualified instructor at a proper 5.0 School.

No easy way to excellence.

And no rest for the wicked

Best regards,
TCG

P.S. - And yes, it's constantly drilled into us that a) we are strikers, and that b) when it comes to the ground, the strategy is to escape and get back on our feet. Moreover, the transition from standup to the ground and back happens frequently and dynamically in heavy-contact 'alive' sparring sessions.

 

[toejoe2k]

Hi everyone,

As someone currently training in 5.0 here in Oz (the other end of the world), I'd like to reassure all concerned that there are no video-ranking certifications. Nada. Zip. Thankfully, to progress in our art, we still need to actually practice with a qualified instructor at a proper 5.0 School.

No easy way to excellence.

And no rest for the wicked

Best regards,
TCG

P.S. - And yes, it's constantly drilled into us that a) we are strikers, and that b) when it comes to the ground, the strategy is to escape and get back on our feet. Moreover, the transition from standup to the ground and back happens frequently and dynamically in heavy-contact 'alive' sparring sessions.

I also train in 5.0. I closed a JJJ school to begin training here due to the very obvious hole in my skill set. I traveled to San Antonio to view several different systems and schools. When I saw how the 5.0 guys trained I new that I needed to look no further.

The ground fighting aspects of Kenpo 5.0 are taught in the "ideal phase" - just like everything else. So, when a skilled grappler who normally conducts "alive" training views the application of what I call "dirty grappling" in the SD techniques, he may not care for it. However, when we spar, it's all alive. Since training there, I've had both eyes "dotted", a broken nose, broken bones in my hand, fingers and toes, and numerous bruises and sprains. I would not have it any other way. We fight all the way to the ground with groin strikes and everything else just short of fingers into the eye. Instead, we lay fingers across the eye or put pressure against the bony socket.

From that perspective, the ground fighting techs are suprisingly sound...though not quite perfected. Luckily, "5.0" indicates room for adjustments and improvements as Mr. Speakman has indicated to me explicitly.

I'm only a blue belt in the system now but, I'd be glad to field any questions to the best of my ability. For those I cannot answer, I can ask my instructor.

All I can say about it is I've been in the M.A. game for most of my life and I really love Kenpo and the people in it.

Peace,

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I also train in 5.0. I closed a JJJ school to begin training here due to the very obvious hole in my skill set. I traveled to San Antonio to view several different systems and schools. When I saw how the 5.0 guys trained I new that I needed to look no further.

The ground fighting aspects of Kenpo 5.0 are taught in the "ideal phase" - just like everything else. So, when a skilled grappler who normally conducts "alive" training views the application of what I call "dirty grappling" in the SD techniques, he may not care for it. However, when we spar, it's all alive. Since training there, I've had both eyes "dotted", a broken nose, broken bones in my hand, fingers and toes, and numerous bruises and sprains. I would not have it any other way. We fight all the way to the ground with groin strikes and everything else just short of fingers into the eye. Instead, we lay fingers across the eye or put pressure against the bony socket.

From that perspective, the ground fighting techs are suprisingly sound...though not quite perfected. Luckily, "5.0" indicates room for adjustments and improvements as Mr. Speakman has indicated to me explicitly.

I'm only a blue belt in the system now but, I'd be glad to field any questions to the best of my ability. For those I cannot answer, I can ask my instructor.

All I can say about it is I've been in the M.A. game for most of my life and I really love Kenpo and the people in it.

Peace,

Mr. Richardson:

It is I -- Dr. Dave from KenpoTalk -- in disguise (sorta). I just had to tell you: One of my big kvetches about modern kenpo is the lack of intensity and contact. I pretty much yearn for the days of yore, when we trained hard enough to break hands, noses, fingers & toeses, get a couple of raccoon eyes & split lips, etc.

I read your above post and smiled, deeply pleased to know that this level of intensity in training still lives on. I have my own complaints about the 5.0 system, and Jeffs need to avoid bridges while his pocket's full of matches, but I just hadda tell ya -- I loved this post.

Train hard, work whatever parts ain't broken (until you break them too), and keep livin' the martial spirit in kenpo.

D.

 

[toejoe2k]

Mr. Richardson:

It is I -- Dr. Dave from KenpoTalk -- in disguise (sorta). I just had to tell you: One of my big kvetches about modern kenpo is the lack of intensity and contact. I pretty much yearn for the days of yore, when we trained hard enough to break hands, noses, fingers & toeses, get a couple of raccoon eyes & split lips, etc.

I read your above post and smiled, deeply pleased to know that this level of intensity in training still lives on. I have my own complaints about the 5.0 system, and Jeffs need to avoid bridges while his pocket's full of matches, but I just hadda tell ya -- I loved this post.

Train hard, work whatever parts ain't broken (until you break them too), and keep livin' the martial spirit in kenpo.

D.

Hello Dr. Dave,

Thanks for the kind words...I believe you to be in California, correct? If I ever get around that way, it would be my honor to try to keep you from busting me in the mouth and to return the favor....lol

It's no secret that Mr. Speakman has no problem taking occassion with certain people and calling them by name. What I can appreciate, is that I've never heard him (or read about him) picking on a particular system. He tends to go after individual people. I can respect that because, in my attempts to be intellectually honest, I really hate it when people make claims of McDojo-ism about any system or school without ever having set foot in it...it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Suffice it to say, I respect that he doesn't do that. And yes, I'm challenging anyone to walk into a 5.0 school, spend some time with the instructor and tell me that the system is worthless. Granted, some schools and instructors are better than others but, there is always sweat and (nominal) pain involved :ultracool.

It may not be for everyone but, at least such a person would have grounds to express an informed opinion.

Though my wife always gets very angry when I have to go get something that's busted looked at in the local clinic, she always comes to the realization that it's not worth getting divorced over...

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Though my wife always gets very angry when I have to go get something that's busted looked at in the local clinic, she always comes to the realization that it's not worth getting divorced over...

That alone makes her sound like a real keeper.

D.