Kelly McCanns knife techinques are they dangerous?

[Mider1985]

I prefer these disarms

This one is from Dennis Hanover a Isreali Krav Maga master its not him in the clip but he developed this form of Krav Maga

This is one from Dan Inosanto Knife fighting starts at 2:20 this is a beginner type of knife disarm as far as i can tell.

Here's a highlight clip from a Paul Vunak weapons seminar

This is from the Dog Brothers

DONT BOO ME ON THIS ONE. This next one is a Systema spetsnaz clip The First clip is were this guy did techinques in front of Gene Lebell and Gene Lebell liked em so yeah INSULT JUDO GENE AT YOUR OWN RISK.....dont become another steven seagal (just joking)

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Mider,

I'll start with the Jim Grover clip you started with. It's actually not a bad concept at all (small caveat here, my sound isn't working on my PC right now, so I'm only judging this, and the following, on the actions I can see). In terms of him not removing the knife, he seems to be going for a more "incapacitate them with brutal striking" approach, removing a weapon is more for when they can continue an assault. Personally, I'd prefer to remove it anyway, but not at the expence of a safe escape (in other words, if I have created a brief moment when I can escape, safely, then why would I sacrifice that escape just to stay and remove a weapon that is no longer threatening me?), particularly when such a small (and therefore awkward to remove) weapon is involved.... after all, in the heat of everything, I probably wouldn't even recognise that there was a weapon there. My only real issue is why he called it "Knife Disarms" when there were no disarms at all... hmm.

Now, to your next list. First to the Dennis Hanover group one. Frankly, I'm not really impressed with this one. For something realistic, it is quite lacking in regards to distance (which Jim had), and realistic responce from the knifeman. Add to that some very fine-motor actions, and we have a less-than recommended knife responce set here. He also lacks control of the knife from time to time, leaving him open to actually stabbing/cutting himself. The one at 0:31 is the best of the bunch here.

Dan Inosanto's clip. Hmm. Well, to again be completely frank, this, to me, is a series of movement drills, and if taken as realistic knife defence/response/disarms, then a better idea of reality may be needed. It appears to be essentially FMA-based drills to move a weapon from one side of the body to another, but it is simply not a realistic response against a modern knife assault, again taking no real response on the knifemans part into account, as well as being highly stylised (and therefore removed from what would actually be encountered) attacks, with little body movement. For a movement drill, great. For knife defence, well, that's not what it is designed for.

Paul's clip, well, it's not really knife defence at all. It's knife fighting. So I'm not sure what disarms you liked there. I saw a lot of things that I would recommend against, and some that is downright dangerous, to say the least. Not impressed with this one, to be honest. Again, it's FMA-based actions, which look very impressive, and are fast, so it's easy to get drawn into them, but the actual point, I feel, is typically missed if people think that that is good. What is good in the FMA blade responses is the flow, and the control of the weapon/weapon hand, and these drills are just a way to get that skill. However these are not really good knife defences/disarms, frankly.

As for the Dog Brothers one, did you actually watch the clip before you posted it? It's an intro to a tape of theirs, and shows very little knife defence/disarming at all, in fact, when they do, it's typically pixelated out. That said, the Dog Brothers here have a very realistic understanding of what knife violence is actually about, so they're my top choice out of the presented ones so far.

Vadim Starov's approach is very Systema, it must be said (a bit different from the FMA approach of most here!). I'd have a few issues with the lack of control or realistic response from the knifeman again... Judo Gene may like them, but I'd want to take it through a bit of pressure testing before I put my life behind those actions, honestly.

A favourite of mine would be (again an FMA-based one) Michael Janich. Michael, along with his LEO training partner, started investigating Fairbairns "Timetable of Death", to ensure that the vaunted knowledge was accurate, and found that it wasn't. That began his search for a highly realistic approach to knife combat, and includes response against blades as well. He might look like an accountant, but when it comes to blades, he is definately someone to listen to, in my opinion.

 

[MJS]

My overall problem with the clip is the not disarming the knife. Do you think he should have disarmed the guy or let him keep the weapon?

Well yeah, in the ideal situation, take the weapon. There are some techs that return the weapon to the sender, meaning, the knife is redirected and directed back into the person, be it their leg, chest, stomach, etc. In that case, no, I'm probably not going to pull the knife out. Again, I am not affiliated, nor have I trained with Kelly, but it seems to me that his defenses are set on overwhelming the person. No idea whether or not the thought of disarming, is entering the picture, with the way they train.

I prefer these disarms

This one is from Dennis Hanover a Isreali Krav Maga master its not him in the clip but he developed this form of Krav Maga

This is one from Dan Inosanto Knife fighting starts at 2:20 this is a beginner type of knife disarm as far as i can tell.

Here's a highlight clip from a Paul Vunak weapons seminar

This is from the Dog Brothers

DONT BOO ME ON THIS ONE. This next one is a Systema spetsnaz clip The First clip is were this guy did techinques in front of Gene Lebell and Gene Lebell liked em so yeah INSULT JUDO GENE AT YOUR OWN RISK.....dont become another steven seagal (just joking)

I like the Dog Bros DLO stuff, however, it sucks that half the clip is blocked out. LOL. Guess thats a tease to get you to buy the dvd.

I look at it like this...there are countless techs that address weapons. If I had a dollar for every time someone bashed Krav Maga, I'd be rich, yet compared to some other knife techs I've seen, I'd take the KM ones anyday. For me...I tend to avoid alot of the Kenpo knife, in favor of the FMA knife work, with some other stuff mixed in.

As for the clips you just posted....yeah, theres some good stuff IMO.

 

[WC_lun]

I judge knife techniques on some criteria. Is the threat being neutralized? If the knife is not being isolated and neutralized, it isn't good knife self-defense. Is the technique increasing the risk of decreasing the risk of being cut? If the odds go up of being cut due to the technique, then it is poor knife self-defense. Does the anti-knife technique take into account the live nature of real self defense? This is the one I see answered in the negative the most. A lot of instruction by unproven theory.

 

[Mider1985]

Well yeah, in the ideal situation, take the weapon. There are some techs that return the weapon to the sender, meaning, the knife is redirected and directed back into the person, be it their leg, chest, stomach, etc. In that case, no, I'm probably not going to pull the knife out. Again, I am not affiliated, nor have I trained with Kelly, but it seems to me that his defenses are set on overwhelming the person. No idea whether or not the thought of disarming, is entering the picture, with the way they train.



I like the Dog Bros DLO stuff, however, it sucks that half the clip is blocked out. LOL. Guess thats a tease to get you to buy the dvd.

I look at it like this...there are countless techs that address weapons. If I had a dollar for every time someone bashed Krav Maga, I'd be rich, yet compared to some other knife techs I've seen, I'd take the KM ones anyday. For me...I tend to avoid alot of the Kenpo knife, in favor of the FMA knife work, with some other stuff mixed in.

As for the clips you just posted....yeah, theres some good stuff IMO.

Now im not sure but i think that Denny was punching the guys arm in some of his disarming techinques. It might have been in another video. See punching the arm like Kelly Mccann does is part of Kali and Filipino Martial arts. Punching the arm and also slaming your elbow into it while its in a weak structual position is limb destruction. Kali is full of stuff like that from stomping a guys shin and such to outright breaking a limb.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Now im not sure but i think that Denny was punching the guys arm in some of his disarming techinques. It might have been in another video. See punching the arm like Kelly Mccann does is part of Kali and Filipino Martial arts. Punching the arm and also slaming your elbow into it while its in a weak structual position is limb destruction. Kali is full of stuff like that from stomping a guys shin and such to outright breaking a limb.

With the DLO 'Dog Catcher' he's not striking the arm. There is a strike intrinsic with the 'Dog Catcher' but it's not with the hands or feet, it's a headbutt, driving the head in to the other guys chin as you drive forward to intercept the blade hand.

The headbutt, as illustrated, is very effective. I had been taught something very similar in Garimot Arnis, where the head is used to drive your opponent backwards and off balance. It's a very good way of changing the direction of the action, and completely throwing your opponent off his aggressive attack, and in to trying to backpedal. Done right it may even render him unconscious.

 

[MJS]

Now im not sure but i think that Denny was punching the guys arm in some of his disarming techinques. It might have been in another video. See punching the arm like Kelly Mccann does is part of Kali and Filipino Martial arts. Punching the arm and also slaming your elbow into it while its in a weak structual position is limb destruction. Kali is full of stuff like that from stomping a guys shin and such to outright breaking a limb.

The FMAs use more of a gunting move, rather than a punch. Its a scissoring movement.

 

[punisher73]

Overall, I give it a B-minus.

It's already been said, but this "focus on the hands" is a dangerously foolish concept. My reasoning:

1) He has two hands. If you're looking one way, you can't see the other.
2) Peripheral vision will give you the pertinent information of his angle of attack more quickly.
3) If you're not already looking at the hand before the attack begins, the time it takes to observe and orientate to the hand is long enough that you could very likely be cut by the time you respond to the threat.
4) If you are aready looking, it's a provoking action. It clearly signals your intention to fight, and gives away how you intend to start.

As for the overal technique, I mostly like it. However, taking some control of the shankin' hand would be preferrable, especially since one of his big objectives is not to get cut. And it can easily be worked into the technique he's working with.

Good points, overall, I just don't like to rely on peripheral vision because in a high stress situation that is the first to go. That is why they teach scanning to LEO's and others and pivot the whole body etc. to sweep to make sure you see everything you need to.

 

[tim_stl]

If the knife is not being isolated and neutralized, it isn't good knife self-defense.

this is the bottom line, in my opinion. any defense within the reach of the weapon that doesn't isolate and control relies on the attacker reacting in a way that doesn't involve stabbing you. for people that won't assume that an assailant is unarmed, it amazes me that they assume that the attacker will cease attacking once contact is made.



tim

 

[sgtmac_46]

this is the bottom line, in my opinion. any defense within the reach of the weapon that doesn't isolate and control relies on the attacker reacting in a way that doesn't involve stabbing you. for people that won't assume that an assailant is unarmed, it amazes me that they assume that the attacker will cease attacking once contact is made.



tim

I'll defer to tim's expertise on this matter.

 

[tim_stl]

I'll defer to tim's expertise on this matter.

i won't claim to be an expert, i just believe that relying on the opponent to react (or not react) in a particular way is unsafe. i prefer to err on the side of caution, especially when a blade is involved.



tim

 

[Mider1985]

Well yeah, in the ideal situation, take the weapon. There are some techs that return the weapon to the sender, meaning, the knife is redirected and directed back into the person, be it their leg, chest, stomach, etc. In that case, no, I'm probably not going to pull the knife out. Again, I am not affiliated, nor have I trained with Kelly, but it seems to me that his defenses are set on overwhelming the person. No idea whether or not the thought of disarming, is entering the picture, with the way they train.



I like the Dog Bros DLO stuff, however, it sucks that half the clip is blocked out. LOL. Guess thats a tease to get you to buy the dvd.

I look at it like this...there are countless techs that address weapons. If I had a dollar for every time someone bashed Krav Maga, I'd be rich, yet compared to some other knife techs I've seen, I'd take the KM ones anyday. For me...I tend to avoid alot of the Kenpo knife, in favor of the FMA knife work, with some other stuff mixed in.

As for the clips you just posted....yeah, theres some good stuff IMO.

Im sure Dan Inosanto knows more disarming techinques then just the one shown. What didnt you like about the systema clip? Is it that he just slaps the knife out of the hand? When another systema guy explained it (works with the guy in the clip) he said that when your striking the arm your striking were your pulse is..........i guess that is a weak spot? Yeah i know that the Dog Brothers was heavily pixilated but i think i HEARD yes HEARD Denny punching a guys arm so he would weaken the hold on the knife.

 

[MJS]

Im sure Dan Inosanto knows more disarming techinques then just the one shown. What didnt you like about the systema clip? Is it that he just slaps the knife out of the hand? When another systema guy explained it (works with the guy in the clip) he said that when your striking the arm your striking were your pulse is..........i guess that is a weak spot? Yeah i know that the Dog Brothers was heavily pixilated but i think i HEARD yes HEARD Denny punching a guys arm so he would weaken the hold on the knife.

I dont believe I said that I didn't like the Systema clip. Actually, I would like to go back and watch them all again.

As for the punching....hey, who am I to comment on something Marc does. He's been doing this a hell of alot long than I. If it works for him, great. For me, I'm not against the punching, but....I'd want to make sure that if I was going to punch, gunt, etc, that I'm hitting the best places, to get maximum results. I mean, IMO, its one thing to start punching away, but its another if you're hitting specific areas, to get that maximum effect.

 

[Chris Parker]

I think he meant me, Mike. If Mider can clarify that, I'll respond to his questions.

 

[sgtmac_46]

i won't claim to be an expert, i just believe that relying on the opponent to react (or not react) in a particular way is unsafe. i prefer to err on the side of caution, especially when a blade is involved.



tim

I defer to your expertise because you know more about knife work than me, as i've seen in person.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Im sure Dan Inosanto knows more disarming techinques then just the one shown. What didnt you like about the systema clip? Is it that he just slaps the knife out of the hand? When another systema guy explained it (works with the guy in the clip) he said that when your striking the arm your striking were your pulse is..........i guess that is a weak spot? Yeah i know that the Dog Brothers was heavily pixilated but i think i HEARD yes HEARD Denny punching a guys arm so he would weaken the hold on the knife.

Having seen all three DLO's I don't recall seeing Denny punching a guys arm, though it's possible.

The only strike in the 'Dog Catcher' material I recall seeing is a headbutt, which kind of seems to serve the same purpose as striking someone with a knife, without giving up the need to control the knife wielding hand.

Much as, and tim can correct me if i'm wrong here, the 'Monkey' aspect of HARIMAW BUNO/Garimot tends to do, using the head to drive the opponent off his center of gravity, as the body follows the head.

 

[tim_stl]

Having seen all three DLO's I don't recall seeing Denny punching a guys arm, though it's possible.

i think the confusion may come about because the promo clips are blurred, and filipino arts are known for limb destructions. for those who haven't seen the 'die less often' material, the 'dog catcher' isn't a strike (a punch or a gunting), it's a catch that leads to a control. hence, dog catcher.

The only strike in the 'Dog Catcher' material I recall seeing is a headbutt, which kind of seems to serve the same purpose as striking someone with a knife, without giving up the need to control the knife wielding hand.

Much as, and tim can correct me if i'm wrong here, the 'Monkey' aspect of HARIMAW BUNO/Garimot tends to do, using the head to drive the opponent off his center of gravity, as the body follows the head.

correct, although it's not a particularly monkey-flavored option, just an option that i prefer and emphasize.



tim

 

[Mider1985]

I love FMA

 

[Chris Parker]

Er, okay? Good, well done for you, but could we have some context please? I'm not really sure why you resurrected the thread after nearly two months for that non-comment (especially when there are actual questions to you that you could have answered instead...)