Knife Myths

[Chris Parker]

Six of one, honestly. Our most common use of a machete is as an attacking weapon in modern self defence scenarios. And in that regard, it's primary use for us is as a "hacking" weapon, used in a downward diagonal attack to the arms, torso, and legs. That already gives a different target than a short knife attack (the legs), so that is taken into account.

When it comes to a usage of machete as a weapon itself, though, the mechanics necessarily vary from shorter knives and more evenly balanced short swords (kodachi), but our basic tactics are still present throughout. It's based more on the knife work, although there is certainly some kodachi ideas (distancing, for one) present. So it's almost halfway between the two.

 

[MJS]

What I'm basically saying is that every single art in existence is designed for a specific environment/set of circumstances. So choosing something as it is designed around an environment, or set of circumstances that are much closer to what you are likely to encounter may be a better option, depending on what you're after. If you want to learn to kick high, and defend against high kicks, don't do Judo. If you want to learn unarmed self defence, don't do Iaido. If you are looking for a knife system for the here and now, designed to take the common assaults found in the modern Western environment, looking at the smaller blades (such as folders), and designed to end a conflict as soon as possible, then going to a system that is designed around more of a "dueling" situation, with longer blades, different attacking methods, and long drills is not going to be the best option necessarily.

Points taken Chris, but to play devils advocate for a moment....wouldn't you say the ability to adapt the techs to fit current times, is an option? I mean, BJJ for example, is primarily a ground based art, yet, with some modifications, you can apply some locks and chokes while standing. I mean, if what you said stands 100%, then the art you choose is only as good providing you're dealing with someone from the same art. Ex: I train primarily with Kenpo guys, so I'm pretty familiar with how they're going to kick, when working kick defense. Does that mean, that if I'm facing a Shotokan guy, my kick defense will be useless? Or will I just have to adapt for their way of kicking?

As I've said before, one of my Arnis teachers has worked in Corrections, so I enjoy working balde stuff with him, as he's been privy to alot of video footage and methods of attacks, as well as the various modified weapons the inmates use. More than half the time I train knife, I use a small pocketknife trainer rather than the typical larger trainer than we often see used today. Amazing what you can/can't do, when you're using that smaller blade.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, okay.

No, what it means is that you should be aware of the context of the art so that you can adapt it to meet the needs you encounter. It involves knowing both the background of the art, where and why it developed, what it's context and environment is, as well as knowing the same things about your potential needs for the system. If you don't get that there is a difference, and you just use the methods as taught in a different environment/context, they will likely prove to be less effective than you would have thought.

Hmm, I think there was a thread recently about something like that...

 

[Buka]

Why would you need to adapt knife fighting principles to the use of a machete?

Length of blade in close changes a few things, primarilly (to me, anyway) the enemy's defensive ability to jam/check/block, it changes footwork while closing, and some (like me) don't angle backwards as well with the longer machete blade.

 

[Indagator]

I completely agree with you, Carol. So the question remains, why take a viable weapon, and try to use it in a fashion that it is not designed for?

one thing we utilise where i train, when we go through defense against machete attacks, is if i manage to get the machete off of the attacker (which is sometimes how it goes, long story short) i'm then looking at striking with the back of the blade to avoid cutting or seriously wounding him. also using the back of the blade as leverage in joint manipulation sometimes to restrain the attacker.
that being said if all goes well as i'm disarming him then i theoretically shouldn't be likely to need to strike him with the machete as i ought to already have him under my control - perfect world and all that lol.

the attacker themselves is most likely to hack n slash though - or even sometimes just wave it around.

 

[Indagator]

Ha, okay.

No, what it means is that you should be aware of the context of the art so that you can adapt it to meet the needs you encounter. It involves knowing both the background of the art, where and why it developed, what it's context and environment is, as well as knowing the same things about your potential needs for the system. If you don't get that there is a difference, and you just use the methods as taught in a different environment/context, they will likely prove to be less effective than you would have thought.

Hmm, I think there was a thread recently about something like that...

Henka

 

[frank raud]

one thing we utilise where i train, when we go through defense against machete attacks, is if i manage to get the machete off of the attacker (which is sometimes how it goes, long story short) i'm then looking at striking with the back of the blade to avoid cutting or seriously wounding him. also using the back of the blade as leverage in joint manipulation sometimes to restrain the attacker.
that being said if all goes well as i'm disarming him then i theoretically shouldn't be likely to need to strike him with the machete as i ought to already have him under my control - perfect world and all that lol.

the attacker themselves is most likely to hack n slash though - or even sometimes just wave it around.

Are you using the back of the blade as a safety factor for your partner, or is that the actual intention of the technique?

 

[Indagator]

i'd call it the application of the technique rather than the intent of the technique, but yes.

 

[MJS]

Ha, okay.

No, what it means is that you should be aware of the context of the art so that you can adapt it to meet the needs you encounter. It involves knowing both the background of the art, where and why it developed, what it's context and environment is, as well as knowing the same things about your potential needs for the system. If you don't get that there is a difference, and you just use the methods as taught in a different environment/context, they will likely prove to be less effective than you would have thought.

Hmm, I think there was a thread recently about something like that...

Well, thats pretty much what I was saying. I said current times, but yes, if you're in an area, in the current, present time, the techs. wil or could be adapted to whatever it is you're facing.

 

[thegatekeeper]

Myth #1: Its easy to kill a person quickly and easily with a blade. The "Expert" states: Wrong. There are few places that you can put a knife that'll drop them instantly. Someone under drugs could keep fighting despite the wounds. Someone stabbed in the heart could still go on or 30secs.

30 seconds after a stab to the heart? Damn that would require ball of steel!

Cant picture why anyone would stab someone in the heart thou.

 

[Dirty Dog]

30 seconds after a stab to the heart? Damn that would require ball of steel!

Cant picture why anyone would stab someone in the heart thou.

Not really. Just a little luck. I treated a guy once who was stabbed 5-6 times (it's been a while...). He was awake but confused (he'd also been hit with a baseball bat) and struggling with the paramedics through the entire transport. As they rolled through the ER doors, he collapsed, pulseless. We cracked his chest immediately, stapled the 4-5cm hole in his left ventricle closed and got pulses back.

The heart is wrapped up in a bag called the pericardium. This bag has two layers. Because these two layers slide around, when a weapon is removed, they sometimes cause the punctures in the layers to misalign. This allows the wound to tamponade, which effectively stops the bleeding. Of course, the tamponade itself squeezes the heart, and eventually can prevent it from pumping effectively. But it can, at least for a short time, keep someone from dying from a wound you might reasonably expect to be immediately fatal. In this case, it was probably about 10 minutes from the time he was stabbed, to the time that the tamponade popped and most of his blood spilled into his chest cavity. Long enough to get him to the ER.
Without the tamponade, he would likely have been dead in a matter of seconds.

 

[jasonbrinn]

I have had the fortunate pleasure of training under Tuhon Bill McGrath who teaches Pekiti-Tirsia. He was gracious enough to let me learn some knife-vs-hand combatives which revolutionized not only my training but my understanding of the reality of weapons combatives across the board. The story about how I came into training with him is of particular note here. I had been training in Karate for 14-15 years and found myself in a "stupid place" cut to the bone on my forearm. After this event I realized my lack of responses to such attacks and called a "well known Filipino guru of gurus" who personally told me that if it was combative knife fighting I wanted to learn then the Pekiti-Tirsia system was the place to do it.

From what I know and have personally seen, these guys train with live blades from time to time and most have had "real life" experience. Even without knowing anything about their experiences I can safe that the concepts I was taught work(.)

As for the points mentioned by the OP I mostly agree with - the only cause I have against comments like these is that with basic physiology aside people react differently to the same situations. I have met people who not only survived but fought back from situations that most people who have fallen to. There are stories of people with minor issues being killed, while others walk around with butcher knifes sticking out of their skulls.

To me, if you are going to train you should understand the biology and the effects while working the fundamentals of skeletal attacks/defenses in order to be 100% safe.


Lastly, back to Pekiti-Tirsia and Tuhon Bill McGrath, all I can say is that after 30+ years of training I have found no other system that dealt as mightily with bladed combat as this one and to them both I and my family (students icluded) are deeply indebted.

 

[Carol]

I have had the fortunate pleasure of training under Tuhon Bill McGrath who teaches Pekiti-Tirsia. He was gracious enough to let me learn some knife-vs-hand combatives which revolutionized not only my training but my understanding of the reality of weapons combatives across the board. The story about how I came into training with him is of particular note here. I had been training in Karate for 14-15 years and found myself in a "stupid place" cut to the bone on my forearm. After this event I realized my lack of responses to such attacks and called a "well known Filipino guru of gurus" who personally told me that if it was combative knife fighting I wanted to learn then the Pekiti-Tirsia system was the place to do it.

From what I know and have personally seen, these guys train with live blades from time to time and most have had "real life" experience. Even without knowing anything about their experiences I can safe that the concepts I was taught work(.)

As for the points mentioned by the OP I mostly agree with - the only cause I have against comments like these is that with basic physiology aside people react differently to the same situations. I have met people who not only survived but fought back from situations that most people who have fallen to. There are stories of people with minor issues being killed, while others walk around with butcher knifes sticking out of their skulls.

To me, if you are going to train you should understand the biology and the effects while working the fundamentals of skeletal attacks/defenses in order to be 100% safe.


Lastly, back to Pekiti-Tirsia and Tuhon Bill McGrath, all I can say is that after 30+ years of training I have found no other system that dealt as mightily with bladed combat as this one and to them both I and my family (students icluded) are deeply indebted.

Tuhon McGrath is a good guy. How long did you train under him?

 

[jasonbrinn]

I really only had a few seminars. I had a run in with a knife and was referred to him from another teacher. Based on who the recommendation was from Tuhon McGrath was gracious enough to let me into some advanced seminars dealing specifically with the knife and knife scenarios. Needless to say it was like drinking from a fire hydrant and I gleamed very little, however, a little leaven you know!

*the seminars were held in South Carolina in the back of a chiropractor's office, I think he was the assistant instructor.

 

[MJS]

And this is why I'm always saying that if you want to really get into the nitty-gritty of an art, you absolutely have to go to someone who specializes in whatever it is that you're looking at. I've heard good things about Tuhon Bill McGrath, and while I've never trained with him, I have worked with a guy who does, in addition to attending a few seminars with Tuhon Gaje.

 

[kbarrett]

Knife self-defense isn't the same as knife prearranged hyungs (kata) which in turn is the same as knife fighting (sparring), they each have their place and must practice them all.

Ken

 

[Indagator]

I have to admit most of the "real world knowledge" I bring to my knife techs comes from bowhunting and/or hunting situations. For example I definitely wouldn't personally go trying to stab in and around ribcages, as I have gotten knives stuck in deer and goats that way before. It's actually one of the primary reasons a pig-sticker is designed the way it is as opposed to your green river or bowie knives that most men carry out for gutting and field dressing.
One thing that did give a whole lot of credibility to my instructor was one evening when we trained with the dummy knife and he cut in (excuse the pun!) with a little bit of kuden about throat-cuts and how it can cause a bit of a spray that you need to be aware of, lest it get in your eyes and screw your vision up.
Well, I've had that happen with quite a few animals, particularly bowhunting as the critter dies from loss of consciousness/blood loss caused by the broadhead as opposed to a rifle or carbine which tends to cause percussive damage and (sometimes) massive trauma.
So in bowhunting an ethical hunter (such as yours truly) will often make a shot, and then pursue the animal as it flees and get on it to cut it's throat. Often the pulse is still going at this point, and even with a weakened pulse from bleeding out I've had little jet-sprays for a half-second or so.

Other truths I have learned from this that are relevant, I have seen a deer go down in under 30 seconds with a single lung shot, and another run for 50 yards with a double-lung heart shot.
I've seen (a lot with my broadheads beacuse I am OC about how sharp I get them before using them) animals shot through the lungs get slightly startled, then carry on grazing and drop dead.

So what have I learned? There are too many variables to count on certain things as being failsafe drop-shots or kill-shots. In combat, as in hunting, I believe one must do what they can but never count on it being finished until it's over - and one must remain constantly ready until it is over, ready to finish things quickly.

Don't know if any of this helps, but it came to mind...

 

[RTKDCMB]

Don't remember the last time I was attacked with a Claymore sword.

 

[Blindside]

Don't remember the last time I was attacked with a Claymore sword.

'Cause that seems pertinent to the thread....

 

[MJS]

Don't remember the last time I was attacked with a Claymore sword.

Umm....ya lost me on that one.