what would happen if...?

[KempoGuy06]

A buddy of mine is a former Green Beret...He comes out of a bar one night and discovers 3 homies trying to rip off his new Caddy..He yells "Hey" and they attack him with fists, a chain and a knife..He beats the chicken soup outta them and he gets arrested...The Judge reviewed the case and threw it outta court....

at least our troops get the respect...

Im wondering cause I work in a rough part of town, im a big guy but that wont always stop people from trying to take stuff from me. I dont want to carry a firearm but it looks like that is my best option, guy pulls out a knife, i pull out my gun and say i dont think so.

B

 

[DavidCC]

Maybe you could just stab him a little... depends on the laws of your state.

 

[KempoGuy06]

maybe you could just stab him a little... Depends on the laws of your state.

lol!!!

B

 

[Drac]

at least our troops get the respect...

Im wondering cause I work in a rough part of town, im a big guy but that wont always stop people from trying to take stuff from me. I dont want to carry a firearm but it looks like that is my best option, guy pulls out a knife, i pull out my gun and say i dont think so.

B

Remember the 21 foot law is B.S...Or drop the perp like a bad habit and walk away, making sure he isnt getting back up to re-engage...What's he gonna do, go to the police and say " I was gonna rob dis dude and he stomped me?"...

 

[KempoGuy06]

Remember the 21 foot law is B.S...Or drop the perp like a bad habit and walk away, making sure he isnt getting back up to re-engage...What's he gonna do, go to the police and say " I was gonna rob dis dude and he stomped me?"...

LOL...great point

B

 

[Rich Parsons]

I have a question....

Lets say im out for a run/walk and someone comes up to me and demands my money. they appear to be unarmed so I take a pose where my hand say "i want no trouble" but are up in front of my face and ready to defend if need be. Well, what if the guy feels threatened and pulls a knife, now the situation is changed and my life is in direct danger. The guy lunges, i move counter, take a way the weapon. Now my life is in less danger (knowing what i know about the current situation, maybe he has another knife but i dont know so i go with what i do know). The attacker has no more weapons, but is desparete and attacks again....This is where my question comes in?

What would happen if I were to use the weapon? Since it is a knife and not a gun the guy has a reasonable chance to get it back or still win and not get hurt.

Say he is trained as well, he starts to drive me back or over power me, am I allowed to use it since this guy obviously intends to do harm to me?

Thought please....particularly from LEOs or former LEOs and anybody with law experience

B

Why did you not just give the bad guy your money? If you had then no attack would ever had happened.

This it the question the DA and widow's attorney for the civil case will be asking the judge or jury.

So why did you not just give him the little bit of money you had on him and avoid the situation?

They will ask it over and over, until the idea of it becomes absurd for any other possible answer that for you to give him the money. The bad guy will become the victim. They will parade his widow and kids and friends and mother all crying in front of camera's and the jury(ies).

I can give you no legal advice. I can give you no real advice in this situation.

I can tell you what was asked of me, by LEO's and detectives et al. And I had not used a weapon that they brought. I had only walked away (barely) from 6 guys. I had a dislocated rib, and other injuries, but as we all went through the window, I rolled and avoided the bouncing glass. They did not, so they "looked" much worse for wear.


If you have the weapon and there is no visible threat in my state you are not the bad guy. If you brandish the weapon or tell the guy to leave you have assaulted him. (* recently they made some changes so even if you have the weapon from him in your own home, that you no longer have to get you and your family out of the house. Yes your house and you would have had to leave. As this was considered the "average" man line of action. *)

I know what I have done in the past. I know what I train. I can tell you what I would plan to do. Defend myself and make sure there was no more threat. But, I also know that if I touch him in the portion of making sure there is no more threat, I have become the bad guy. So, by having the weapon down and saying "why don't you just leave" is not being aggressive to the bad guy.

But, you may want to ask your question of a lawyer. Talk to those that do the CPL or concealer weapons classes as many times they will answer such a question during the class.

Good Luck

 

[Andy Moynihan]

It is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

Honestly if he comes bak after you while you have the knife, the I think it would be easy to convince a jury that he was attempting to kill you. .

After all, what "reasonable person", disarmed of his weapon while assaulting you, then charges that same weapon just to get you?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Say he is trained as well, he starts to drive me back or over power me, am I allowed to use it since this guy obviously intends to do harm to me?

Thought please....particularly from LEOs or former LEOs and anybody with law experience

Depends on what state you live in. Some require you to retreat if you can do so safely. Others have 'stand your ground' laws.

You can do this....

Once you have the knife, throw it as far away as you can so they cannot use it, and then either fight or run.

Deaf

 

[Aikicomp]

I have a question....

Lets say im out for a run/walk and someone comes up to me and demands my money. they appear to be unarmed so I take a pose where my hand say "i want no trouble" but are up in front of my face and ready to defend if need be. Well, what if the guy feels threatened and pulls a knife, now the situation is changed and my life is in direct danger. The guy lunges, i move counter, take a way the weapon. Now my life is in less danger (knowing what i know about the current situation, maybe he has another knife but i dont know so i go with what i do know). The attacker has no more weapons, but is desparete and attacks again....This is where my question comes in?

What would happen if I were to use the weapon? Since it is a knife and not a gun the guy has a reasonable chance to get it back or still win and not get hurt.

Say he is trained as well, he starts to drive me back or over power me, am I allowed to use it since this guy obviously intends to do harm to me?

Thought please....particularly from LEOs or former LEOs and anybody with law experience

B

What I tell my students is NEVER...NEVER... NEVER use the assailants weapon against him. You would be in effect stabbing or slashing an unarmed person. No matter what his original intention was.

IMO, To delibrately stab or slash him is in poor judgement and IF you have enough training to disarm him in the first place you should have enough skill to stop him from hurting you without having to use his weapon against him.

Think very hard before you do this. If he lives and it goes before a jury there are ways to make it look like you were the aggressor and you could be going to jail instead of him.

Yours in Budo
Michael

 

[KempoGuy06]

Why did you not just give the bad guy your money? If you had then no attack would ever had happened.

This it the question the DA and widow's attorney for the civil case will be asking the judge or jury.

So why did you not just give him the little bit of money you had on him and avoid the situation?

They will ask it over and over, until the idea of it becomes absurd for any other possible answer that for you to give him the money. The bad guy will become the victim. They will parade his widow and kids and friends and mother all crying in front of camera's and the jury(ies).

I can give you no legal advice. I can give you no real advice in this situation.

I can tell you what was asked of me, by LEO's and detectives et al. And I had not used a weapon that they brought. I had only walked away (barely) from 6 guys. I had a dislocated rib, and other injuries, but as we all went through the window, I rolled and avoided the bouncing glass. They did not, so they "looked" much worse for wear.


If you have the weapon and there is no visible threat in my state you are not the bad guy. If you brandish the weapon or tell the guy to leave you have assaulted him. (* recently they made some changes so even if you have the weapon from him in your own home, that you no longer have to get you and your family out of the house. Yes your house and you would have had to leave. As this was considered the "average" man line of action. *)

I know what I have done in the past. I know what I train. I can tell you what I would plan to do. Defend myself and make sure there was no more threat. But, I also know that if I touch him in the portion of making sure there is no more threat, I have become the bad guy. So, by having the weapon down and saying "why don't you just leave" is not being aggressive to the bad guy.

But, you may want to ask your question of a lawyer. Talk to those that do the CPL or concealer weapons classes as many times they will answer such a question during the class.

Good Luck

Thats what I was thinking, but i put the situation at that I was running/walking. Maybe I only took a cell phone and my license and insurance card. or maybe I gave him the money and he got angry wanting more and attacked All hypothetical the real question is what would happen if that situation occurred, given that I tried every other avenue.

B

 

[KempoGuy06]

What I tell my students is NEVER...NEVER... NEVER use the assailants weapon against him. You would be in effect stabbing or slashing an unarmed person. No matter what his original intention was.

IMO, To delibrately stab or slash him is in poor judgement and IF you have enough training to disarm him in the first place you should have enough skill to stop him from hurting you without having to use his weapon against him.

Think very hard before you do this. If he lives and it goes before a jury there are ways to make it look like you were the aggressor and you could be going to jail instead of him.

Yours in Budo
Michael

Thats a very good point and 99% of the time I agree.

But the 1% chance is where Im going. I as well as the majority of us here know that adaptation of what we learn is key to our survival on the streets. What if that adaptation fails or is countered and our only option is to resort to a tactic that we would normally not use. Thats what Im trying to get at.

what you tell your students is great advice and right as far as Im concerned, but ( and please I mean no disrespect and I am not trying to tell you how to teach just giving advice on what I would do) it needs to explained, to the adults in your class only, that in extreme circumstances if using the weapon is the only way to walk away alive than use it. Like it has been said many times before. Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6

B

 

[Aiki Lee]

If you know you can take the guy out without stabbing him after taking his knife then I believe you are morally obligated to do so, but i'd rather stab him to death then have him steal the knife back from me and stab me to death instead.

There are two things you should sayif you are at a trail.

"It all happened so fast" and "I was afraid for my life"

just repeat again and again until the questions stop (-:

 

[Aiki Lee]

on a side note;

I find it unreasonable for prosecutors to make the case that if you know martial arts, even just a tiny bit, then you must be Batman and can therefore stop any attacker without injuring him or causing him "emotional distress".

What a load of crap.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

on a side note;

I find it unreasonable for prosecutors to make the case that if you know martial arts, even just a tiny bit, then you must be Batman and can therefore stop any attacker without injuring him or causing him "emotional distress".

What a load of crap.

I think you will find that less often in the case of prosecutors in criminal cases and more often from plaintiff's attorneys in civil suits. And that's because they are not paid to be fair or reasonable, they are paid to win lawsuits. They'll use any advantage they can find.

 

[MJS]

I have a question....

Lets say im out for a run/walk and someone comes up to me and demands my money. they appear to be unarmed so I take a pose where my hand say "i want no trouble" but are up in front of my face and ready to defend if need be. Well, what if the guy feels threatened and pulls a knife, now the situation is changed and my life is in direct danger. The guy lunges, i move counter, take a way the weapon. Now my life is in less danger (knowing what i know about the current situation, maybe he has another knife but i dont know so i go with what i do know). The attacker has no more weapons, but is desparete and attacks again....This is where my question comes in?

What would happen if I were to use the weapon? Since it is a knife and not a gun the guy has a reasonable chance to get it back or still win and not get hurt.

Say he is trained as well, he starts to drive me back or over power me, am I allowed to use it since this guy obviously intends to do harm to me?

Thought please....particularly from LEOs or former LEOs and anybody with law experience

B

This sounds similar to a question that I posed in a thread I started here a while back. Here is that thread. Someone mentioned using the weapon against the attacker. I replied that as tempting as it'd be, it may not be a good idea. Someone else chimed in by saying that it would be ok to use it.

If we were struggling over the weapon, and it went off and he was shot with his own gun or stabbed with his own knife, if I took it away and used it against him...as it was said in the other thread, a threat is still present, and depending on your actions after, you could be justified. Of course, I also posted this comment in that thread. That comment was made by a LEO, so I do place value in that. If we look at that post, and then put ourselves into the question you asked, it seems that some of the factors of you using the weapon are gone. This is where my thinking was going, in that other thread I linked, because I compared this to an empty hand situation, where the threat is over, ie: bad guy is on the ground, no longer attacking, and you haul off and kick his ribs 8 more times for good measure. Was that necessary?

Same thing here...you get the knife away, and now you chase after him with it, cutting him.

Like I always say, assess the situaiton presented to you at the time. And my old saying, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

Could the BG retake the weapon after you've disarmed him? Anythings possible and we could what if this to death. What would I do? Gaining control of it is the #1 priority IMO. Perhaps I could still use it against him, but not in the fashion it was intended for. In other words...you disarm the gun and hit him with it. You 'used' it against him, but didn't shoot him.

Depending on the situation, I may use it or may try to remove it from the situation, ie: toss it out of reach. If he goes to get it, hopefully that'll buy me time to get the hell out of there.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It's really not as complicated as people try to make it.

Are you reasonably in fear for your life? If so, then you are authorized to use that force necessary (in most jurisdictions) to end the danger. How you do that matters a lot less than:

1) Whether or not the threat was real from the point of view of a hypothetical 'reasonable and prudent' man.

2) Whether or not you stopped defending yourself when the danger ended.

I'm really not sure why people want to make things more complex than they really are. Ask a cop or an attorney, they'll tell you the same thing. Some states have a 'duty to retreat' instead of a 'stand your ground' doctrine in their 'self defense' statutes, but that's about it.

 

[chinto]

in my state it is black letter law that you would be justified in using deadly force.

 

[KempoGuy06]

This sounds similar to a question that I posed in a thread I started here a while back. Here is that thread. Someone mentioned using the weapon against the attacker. I replied that as tempting as it'd be, it may not be a good idea. Someone else chimed in by saying that it would be ok to use it.

If we were struggling over the weapon, and it went off and he was shot with his own gun or stabbed with his own knife, if I took it away and used it against him...as it was said in the other thread, a threat is still present, and depending on your actions after, you could be justified. Of course, I also posted this comment in that thread. That comment was made by a LEO, so I do place value in that. If we look at that post, and then put ourselves into the question you asked, it seems that some of the factors of you using the weapon are gone. This is where my thinking was going, in that other thread I linked, because I compared this to an empty hand situation, where the threat is over, ie: bad guy is on the ground, no longer attacking, and you haul off and kick his ribs 8 more times for good measure. Was that necessary?

Same thing here...you get the knife away, and now you chase after him with it, cutting him.

Like I always say, assess the situaiton presented to you at the time. And my old saying, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

Could the BG retake the weapon after you've disarmed him? Anythings possible and we could what if this to death. What would I do? Gaining control of it is the #1 priority IMO. Perhaps I could still use it against him, but not in the fashion it was intended for. In other words...you disarm the gun and hit him with it. You 'used' it against him, but didn't shoot him.

Depending on the situation, I may use it or may try to remove it from the situation, ie: toss it out of reach. If he goes to get it, hopefully that'll buy me time to get the hell out of there.

MJS, great response as always. I love what the guy said on that other board, very good answer and very informative.

One thing however, you said (look at second bolded section), I was not implying that I was to run after the guy stabbing him, i was making the suggestion that after I disarmed him, he still attacked with bare hands (or maybe another knife, didnt think of that first time around), based on the fact that he attacked me with the knife the first time (evidince he wanted to physically harm me) and then attacks me again w/ or w/o a weapon, i believe I would have the right to use the weapon.

I dont know it is all very confusing, i will ask my aunt she is a lawyer

B

 

[KempoGuy06]

in my state it is black letter law that you would be justified in using deadly force.

can you or anybody explain this to me please

B

 

[MJS]

MJS, great response as always. I love what the guy said on that other board, very good answer and very informative.

Thanks. Glad you liked everything.

One thing however, you said (look at second bolded section), I was not implying that I was to run after the guy stabbing him, i was making the suggestion that after I disarmed him, he still attacked with bare hands (or maybe another knife, didnt think of that first time around), based on the fact that he attacked me with the knife the first time (evidince he wanted to physically harm me) and then attacks me again w/ or w/o a weapon, i believe I would have the right to use the weapon.

I dont know it is all very confusing, i will ask my aunt she is a lawyer

B

My apologies, as that was a poor choice of words on my part. No, of course, if he turns and runs, I'm probably going to do the same. I was speaking more along the lines of once you gain control of the weapon, to think whether or not you should use it. Going off of what I've said in other threads, IMHO, if you're faced with deadly force, you're probably more in the right to return the same vs. if you weren't faced with it. Of course, whether or not you choose to do it is another thing. I don't think theres any rule that says you have to take the guys life.

For me, my safety and the safety of anyone with me, is my #1 concern. What happens to the badguy is pretty low on my list. Afterall, why should I be concerned about him, especially if he assaulted me or my wife, tried to steal my belongings, etc? He brought the poop storm on himself, so he gets what he gets.

I hope that cleared things up a bit.

Mike