Katas keep them or chuck them ?

[asoka]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Not to seem arrogant, but what the hell...

I have been practicing forms for going on 17 years now. There have been forms that I started out hating that I eventually fell in love with, and there have been forms that I originally liked, but later liked less...

I practiced them at first because I was told I had to. I practice them now because they are the best way, training alone, for me to make an attempt at maintaining my knowledge and skills (though they are by no means a substitute for partner practice).

Forms teach many things - distance, timing, balance, endurance, combinations, joint locks, strategic perception, proper footwork, correct stance to generate power and maintain stability (and if you are fighting from a zenkutsu dachi thinking it is meant to be held while confronting an opponent, and base your removal of forms practice on that kind of an experience, both you AND your teacher need to be ***** slapped for being just plain stupid...), and much, much more.

Forms are the textbooks of your martial education. If you think you can learn a subject without ever cracking a book, fine. Go to college and forget to buy your texts... When you are failing every class, come see me and do your best to convince me why your failure to grasp the class material is somehow the instructor's fault and not yours...

The people that are most loudly decrying the purpose, utility and necessity of forms are those who understand them the least, learned them incompletely from instructors either ignorant of their real use or ignorant of their real content.

They need to go back and practice their forms more, not less. If it was their instructor's fault for not communicating the content of the forms, then they should seek out new instructors.

If the persons complaining about the uselessness of forms are coming from backgrounds that are either of questionable legitimacy (a la "Bill's Super Chinese Karate-jutsu-do," or Sifu Shihan Soke Hanshi Koucho Billy's Okinawan Chinese Acrobatic Ballet and Self-defense Meditation schools, Inc.," etc...), or outlandishly poor education (being unaware of the real history of their styles, being unaware of the real country and language of origin of their styles, etc.), then they have themselves to blame for having made a poor choice when entering into the martial world to begin with. When I first joined, it was the result of over 6 months of research into the schools in my city... and that was not due to insight, wisdom or maturity (I was all of 16 years old), just good consumer awareness.

Martial arts must grow, as all things must, in order to survive and prosper. But that doesn't mean that someone today, in 2002, knows better than someone from 1584, just because today is today and 1584 is the "old way." Surprisingly, they had the same situations arise that we have today, and we may just be reinventing the wheel by trying to create our own forms from nothing... I teach the same forms my teacher taught me, and I teach them in the same way. But I encourage the people I train with to look deeply into the forms - find applications that my teacher didn't teach me and that I didn't teach them. Use the forms to remember concepts and theories, not just techniques and combinations. Our art is still quite alive, thankyouverymuch.

Bottom line - forms must be practiced. To do otherwise is to limit your ability to understand what is being taught.

:samurai: :tank:

And RyuShiKan is correct - I stopped by his dojo and got a REAL education... I am bruised on my bruises and blissfully happy for the experience. Go ahead, say forms are crap and the bunkai are useless... Then go to RyuShiKan's dojo and ask him to prove to you otherwise... Go ahead, I dare you. When you are looking back up at him from a place somewhere on the floor, with one or more limbs screaming in pain and a complete inability to regain control of your body, you can continue to tell him how he is just full of so much hot air...

I have done katas before no need to tell me what they teach.I always told why we did katas and that essence of karate is in the katas.In order to confront someone properly you must have good balance,focus,speed and distance and proper foot work and joint manipulation as you mentioned.

However are martial artists mistaken by what katas really do teach other then focus,balance and joint manipulation?I think so.

Let me explain what I mean by this.Kata,while it may teach many things it doesn't teach the essential stuff for a real confrontation.

Katas don't really teach the proper foot work many claim it does,because going in the type of stances that many martial arts schools practice such has zenkutsu dachi,sanchin,shico dachi ,just to mention a few,would be really be pointless.

In one sentence you mentioned practicing kata only because you were told you had to,and that's exactly what it is like with most martial artists.They feel like because it was taught to them that way they have to teach it the way they were shown,well many do anyways.

You also mentioned timing for katas,in which way?The only timing in katas is from doing them at exact same time as others do in the dojo,can't exactly be timing with the air right?LOL.What good is learning timing if you're not doing it one on one with a partner.Katas are pre-arranged air movements basically.

In Pankration we practice timing realistically by someone kicking or punching right at us and practice blocking and creating an opening where there is no opening in order execute a punch or kick.We also practice timing by bobbing side to side of punches coming straight at us or ducking under hook punches.If we don't block,bobb or duck on time we will obviously get hit,but with practice you get better and better.

So to talk about timing in kata makes no sense to me.I know there is timing involved but not type that would avoid you from getting kicked or punched in head.

Comparing katas to text books needed to pass a class is pathetic,because yes in class you need books but in martial arts you don't need kata.Martial Arts can be done without forms and this will help you improve more and faster.

Now that's something to laugh at"Bottom-line is forms must be practiced to do otherwise is to limit your ability to what is being taught"
It's more like the other way around.To practice kata is to put limits on your ability of what is being taught and your capability of doing much more.

I transfered over from a kata martial arts to a non-kata martial arts and I'm now a much faster and more focused fighter,as well as have better balance and stamina.I may get hurt more sometimes in this art but I come out the winner in the end.I would be willing to beat just about any black belt of any style.Another style similar to mine, I might , maybe even tie or could lose can,it could come out anyway, but against kata people I'd definitely win.

If traditional arts(kata arts) are so good and katas are so important in order to become a trully good fighter,then why is it we never see karate,tae kwon do,kung fu,tai chi etc in UFC unless they also have knowledge in other styles that don't teach forms?

I've never heard of someone in karate or tae kwon do fight in UFC.Those who knew Tae Kwon Do also knew grappling and kickboxing .

Another example is: The Gracie's always won their fight except
one and they don't do forms.

Shamrock as everyone knows is one of UFC's
toughest fighters and good at what he
does.He wins most of his fights and he too
doesn't practice katas.

Another no kata person who has won in a
UFC fight by knockout is Lance Gibson.Infact
he says he is totally against katas and I
know he doesn't teach them.This Guy is 2nd
in the world right now,must mean something.

Seems to me all the same people who don't waste time with katas(or at least don't solely really their training on them) are also the same people who win their fights.

I noticed the winners in the UFC are either Shooto Fighters,Pankrationists and Grapplers.In UFC it helps to know both stand up and grappling.

Now if that doesn't say it all I don't know what does.Only the best fighters in the world are allowed to fight in the octagon.

A karate ka or tae kwon do person wouldn't last more than a minute in the octagon, if even that long.

I also think that if the UFC had existed at the time of many of those masters of traditional styles,even the masters would have lost,because they're not used to realistic street defense techniques,only their little fancy moves that appear to look good to some one who has never done martial arts before.

Everyone knows Kung Fu monks to have alot of internal powers that many people don't have and would take a life time to discover and are also known to be able to take alot of hard hits and do unusual stuff that most can only wonder how it could be done,but in a UFC fight even they would lose.So call them masters all you want,but know what that really means.

 

[kimura]

Re Asoka:

I fully understand your claims. I have heard them myself sooo many times... UFC this and UFC that. I am sorry to inform you that both in UFC and Pride (i find it interesting to watch too) ther ARE rules and rules is not reality !! Why do you think Judo, wrestlers and BJJ's always win ? It might be because is is not legal to kick in the groin, poke out eyes, use weapons or doing finger or toe techniques... It is very naive to believe that UFC and Pride is reality !!! Furthermore it is one on one !!How effective is it that a BJJ practitioner do grabbling on an attacker if his 5 friends are there too ?? Wake up... There are many nonrealistic moves or techniques in any martial art, but these techniques might have a purpose other than being able to win in UFC, they might have a purpose of teaching calmness and not aggressiveness, thereby controlling a situation instead of beginning with the punches !! Martial arts have a history of hundreds of years, and I do believe that this development does not end with UFC and Pride !! I am sure we can go beyond that however not physically... You also mention that you come out as a winner?? Some teacher went wrong with you somewhere, as winning in martial arts is not using it at all !! You have to figure out that there are a lot of difference between sports and martisl arts !! Between sports and reality !

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by asoka


I have done katas before no need to tell me what they teach.

Must be nice to know everything already.

Originally posted by asoka

Katas don't really teach the proper foot work many claim it does,because going in the type of stances that many martial arts schools practice such has zenkutsu dachi,sanchin,shico dachi ,just to mention a few,would be really be pointless.

(post 1)
Yiliquan1,
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't we work on technique and footwork from the KATA on Sat. using pretty real timing[? I seem to remember we did.

Originally posted by asoka

You also mentioned timing for katas,in which way?The only timing in katas is from doing them at exact same time as others do in the dojo,can't exactly be timing with the air right?LOL.What good is learning timing if you're not doing it one on one with a partner.Katas are pre-arranged air movements basically.

See post 1 for comment.

Originally posted by asoka

So to talk about timing in kata makes no sense to me..

That's obvious. :flame:

Originally posted by asoka

I know there is timing involved but not type that would avoid you from getting kicked or punched in head.

Again, See post 1 for comment.

Originally posted by asoka

I transfered over from a kata martial arts to a non-kata martial arts and I'm now a much faster and more focused fighter,as well as have better balance and stamina.I may get hurt more sometimes in this art but I come out the winner in the end.I would be willing to beat just about any black belt of any style.Another style similar to mine, I might , maybe even tie or could lose can,it could come out anyway, but against kata people I'd definitely win.

Is that so.......

Originally posted by asoka

Now if that doesn't say it all I don't know what does.Only the best fighters in the world are allowed to fight in the octagon.

So why haven't I seen you there "hot stuff"? :flushed:

Originally posted by asoka

I also think that if the UFC had existed at the time of many of those masters of traditional styles,even the masters would have lost,because they're not used to realistic street defense techniques,only their little fancy moves that appear to look good to some one who has never done martial arts before.

That is where you are dead wrong and here is why.
I seem to remember Itosu (a karate kata guy from about 100 years ago) at the age of 75 beating a Japanese Jujutsu expert.
I also remember Motobu Choki (another karate kata guy from about 100 years ago) not only beating but killing (died after the fight) a western boxer in Osaka. Just to name 2 examples...there are more.
Having said that, Motobu Choki got in a fight with several folks that were "kata people", Yabu Kensu, Itarashiki, and his brother Choyu, they all whipped his ***. Before those fights Choki was not interested in kata, just fighting..........afterwards he changed his mind........wonder why.
The fact is waaaaay back when in the "Olden Days" when 2 guys fought there weren't any nice referees to stop the fight and thereby stop someone from killing you. When 2 guys fought there was a good chance only one of them was going home afterwards.
People took martial arts and fighting more seriously back then. There weren't any cute little trophies, or medals, referees, and so on. What you won was the right to go home alive, if you were un-scathed.......that was a bonus.

 

[Rich Parsons]

To all,

For those that see nothing in Kata, that is
what they see for that is what they choose to see.

For those that see it as a drill to teach balance
and technique, etc., ..., then this is what they
see in Kata.

For those that see all the variations of the moves
including short stances and rotations and
translations of techniques then this is what they
see in Kata.

Some of this is do to the Student and their
perceptions of the art and what is trying to be
taught to them. To that I say, ok 1 + 1 is 2.
WHY?????? Show me why????? Sometimes you have to
accept something to be able to move on to get the
knowledge to later go back and prove the pervious
assumptions. Now, this does not mean the question
is wrong, for that is growth in the student in
itself when they have learned enough in life to
ask for a further explanation, but sometimes
it has to be taken on faith until the education
of the student is more complete.

Some of this is due to the Instructor and their
perceptions of the Kata and their art. They pass
on their own issues and attitudes to their
students. To balance this it is good to have
multiple instructors in the same art that have
a slightly different opinion. This will allow the
student to see more views. Although it can be
confusing to the student when they are looking
for an absolute. As in the English there are no
absolutes, I also believe there are no absolutes
in Martial Arts. There will always be one person
who steps or their timing or, ..., .what ever is
better or different from anything you have ever
seen or trained before.

Some of this is the art itself. If the art has
taken on the approach that the Kata is he end all
then many times (Not All) the art does not have
contact or timing against a real opponent. Now
some arts do teach this real well, but this might
go back to the instructor.

Now, I do not like forms / Kata. I tech forms to
beginners for balance and position and a list of
scheduled techniques. In the advance ranks the
students learn how to take them apart and turn
90 degrees versus 180 degrees. They learn that
it works against the opponents right or left side,
even though the application / execution may have
to change slightly. I do find them useful.

Now to answer a question of can an Art remove its
forms and still proceed? Not sure of this, but I
do know that the traditional Filipino Martial Arts
do not have forms. The closest thing to a form
is their basic striking drill to teach the angles,
and this is done with the instructor. It looks
like a dance, and this also begins the students
instruction on timing. So, Arts can survive with
out Kata or forms.

I also think that those that believe one way are
not going to be persuaded to go another way until
that person chooses too.

Just my Opinion on this subject for what it is
worth.

Thank you for your time

Rich

:asian:

 

[Bushido]

Thank you RyuShiKan fot the pictures, yoy are very lucky to train at the "source".

About kata, to me, they teach the proper mechanical execution of the movements: precision, speed, balance, ect. But, there is one point that I do not like; the defensive aspect of forms. There is no guard in kata: attacking with the fist to the hip is silly. That has to be transform. You teach someone a form, and when they spar, they put their fist to the hip when punching. Then you say :"Protect yourself, keep your rear hand high." Then the students say:"Why, I do like in the kata." This is ridiculous. If the kata was a reflexion of sparring (in body positionning) they would be simplier and represent a natural extention of fighting. They do are important, but have to be ajust. Some traditionalist will not agree with me saying it is a sacrifice to transform the kata that masters created. It would say this:kata is not something fix, something rigid, they are guidelines and are in constant evolution, we must go with the flow and continue to make them grow.

-Bushido

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Bushido

Thank you RyuShiKan fot the pictures, yoy are very lucky to train at the "source".

The "source" for what I do actually comes from Okinawa and not Japan so in that sense I am not training at the "source".

Originally posted by Bushido
There is no guard in kata: attacking with the fist to the hip is silly. That has to be transform. You teach someone a form, and when they spar, they put their fist to the hip when punching. Then you say :"Protect yourself, keep your rear hand high." Then the students say:"Why, I do like in the kata." This is ridiculous. If the kata was a reflexion of sparring (in body positionning) they would be simplier and represent a natural extention of fighting.

What is ridiculous is when people think and then propagate the myth that keeping the back hand high against the ribs is actually going to protect them, this is a common misconception passed on by Japanese karateka and is not really an Okinawan karateka idea at all, it also shows a great misunderstanding for what that hand position actually means. It is actually part of another technique grab/throw and not meant to protect your ribs or whatever.
This has been my whole point about not understanding kata and the bunkai there in.
People that stand there and think they know what they are looking and say "oh that's crap"...........just shows they don't know what they are really looking at.
The reverse hand pulled back is a classic example.

 

[Bushido]

Ok, after 20 years of karate, I dont know what i'm talking about, nice. So, talk to me about hand positionning...

-Bushido

 

[Rob_Broad]

I believe this debate is all about whether you look at Traditonal karate from the Okinanwan stand point or the Japanese point of view. :cheers:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Bushido

Ok, after 20 years of karate, I dont know what i'm talking about, nice. So, talk to me about hand positionning...

-Bushido

Studied incorrect information for 2 years or 20 years what difference does it make.
I have met Japanese people that have studied English for over 10 years and can barely introduce themselves in English.
I have also met Japanese Karateka that have studied karate twice as long as you and still have some pretty funny ideas about it.

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

I believe this debate is all about whether you look at Traditonal karate from the Okinanwan stand point or the Japanese point of view. :cheers:

Not really. It is about the usefulness of kata. However, if it is pretty hard to discuss kata application without actually showing it.

 

[sweeper]

asoka you seem to think a ring fight is a real fight. It is not.

You talk about karteka winning in the ring, would you expect an american football player to be good at soccer? nope probably not.. if you don't train sport specififc you won't be good at the sport.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons


I also think that those that believe one way are
not going to be persuaded to go another way until
that person chooses too.

I like a good discussion, but this is so true!

Let's also remember, that even though we don't agree we can accept each other.

/Yari

 

[yilishihfu]

If all you are interested in is self-defense and becoming the "baddest" fighter on the block, why bother spending so much time kicking and punching? Buy a shotgun. It's much easier to use, requires much less practice, and is infinitely more effective than martial arts.

Don't forget the second word in the term "martial arts." What we practice is an ART; not just a way of beating the stuffing out of the other fellow.

The forms have been handed down to us by people who studied them their entire adult lives. What the forms teach DOES work. Just because you can't see what they have done in your life does not mean they're worthless.

Learn to "read" them. Look beyond the end of your fist.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by yilishihfu

If all you are interested in is self-defense and becoming the "baddest" fighter on the block, why bother spending so much time kicking and punching? Buy a shotgun. It's much easier to use, requires much less practice, and is infinitely more effective than martial arts.

I agree.......
I'm a bit partial to the Mark 19 myself.............why just kill it when you can blow it up too. :rockets:

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by sweeper

asoka you seem to think a ring fight is a real fight. It is not.

You talk about karteka winning in the ring, would you expect an american football player to be good at soccer? nope probably not.. if you don't train sport specififc you won't be good at the sport.

No ****!!!!!!!!I'm not stupid.I never said a ring fight was a real fight however it is the closest thing to a real fight.My point was kata people don't practice realistically for a self-defense situation.

Of course I wouldn't expect a football play to be good at soccer just as I don't expect a kata person to be good at self-defense,I would expect them to however have great focus,balance and co-ordination and probablyvery messed up knees after awhile from doing stances like shicko dachi,zenkutus dachi etc.

I know the difference between doing katas and practicing realistically.I've done both.I know very well what katas are for,and I would agree they weren't meant for self-defense in first place although there are some self-defense applications within each katas.

People who do katas think that just because they do forms they will improve their fighting skills,however katas aren't really meant for that,they're more of a way of expressing one's self.But as far as self-defense is concerned many instructors make their students think that katas are the means for being able to defend themselves.You don't need katas in order to become a good fighter,but you do need to practice good fighting skills in order to be a good fighter.

People who claim katas help them for self-defense are misunderstood for what katas are really meant for and that they are useless as far as self-defense despite what they've been told.If you enjoy them then do them,everyone has a right to practice what they want and their opinions just as I do.This post is for opinions and nothing else.

Like I said when opening this post if you don't like what you read and take anything offensive then leave,because we're only hear to state opinions.

 

[Field Cricket]

Originally posted by kimura

Re Asoka:

I fully understand your claims. I have heard them myself sooo many times... UFC this and UFC that. I am sorry to inform you that both in UFC and Pride (i find it interesting to watch too) ther ARE rules and rules is not reality !! Why do you think Judo, wrestlers and BJJ's always win ?

This is a bit of an aside, but as this has been posted in the General Martial Arts section, I think it should be pointed out that karate/kempo/kung fu are not the only martial arts that use kata/forms for training. These include Judo, though nowadays not to the extent it used to be simply because of the attitude "it's not a real fight so not important". More on this in a moment.

Another assumption that seems to have been made is that kata only involves one person. This is certainly that case in karate, but Judo kata and some sword art forms involve two or more people. Aikido can be thought of as being taught almost exclusively through two or more person forms. Your "opponents" may not be as aggressive as in a full out competition/fight, but there's definitely plenty of scope for him/her to be "awkward".

A telling comment (I think) that I come across regularly from judoka who have concentrated on competition randori/shiai and then started to do kata training, is how much their technique has improved and helped their competition fighting.

FC

 

[Bushido]

RyuShinKan, who are you to say that:"Studied incorrect information for 2 years or 20 years what difference does it make." Just because you dont agree with someone does not mean that they practice the incorrect way. Saying things like that just show you close-mindness.

Never presume my friend, you should know better.

-Bushido

 

[sweeper]

well asoka the reason I said what you said was you were making comments regarding forms martial arts being effective in the UFC... and my point was training for the ring isn't training for the street. not saying forms training is for a street fight just saying ring fighting isn't either.

one field cricket, you said karte forms are practiced solo? Now I know next to nothing about karate, but I was under the impretion that the forms could be practiced with a partner (or perhaps modified so they could be practiced wtih a partner) this correcT?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Yari



I like a good discussion, but this is so true!

Let's also remember, that even though we don't agree we can accept each other.

/Yari

Yari,

You are corrct, everyone has the right to enter
and to continue this discussion. I agree that
we can accept not only each other but just
about anyone. Look most of the members here
have accepted me.

Thank you for your response

Rich

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Bushido

Ok, after 20 years of karate, I dont know what i'm talking about, nice. So, talk to me about hand positionning...

-Bushido

Well pardon me all to hell.

I guess you didn't write the above then.
My point was it doesn't matter how long you study something if you aren't understanding it correctly or if you have been given erroneous information. You can study it for 20, 40, 60 years but if you are making the same mistakes or still have the same misunderstandings about it the time spent is unimportant.

Hell, look at how long people thought the world was flat.

I am not trying to be snobbish or arrogant just pointing out a basic fact of life.

You were the one that mentioned the hand position and were dissatisfied with the explanation you were given by someone else.
I gave you an alternative explanation, and one that actually makes more sense. If you don't like the news don't shoot the messenger.
Do you actually think Okinawa karate masters would be so stupid as to place their reverse hand next to their chest while in a fight........that doesn't make sense. If one understands the true meaning and technique from the kata it does make sense. Given the high level of technique found within karate it would seem irrational to do something like that. The hand position is actually for another technique which I am too lazy to write out and explain.
Only people that don't understand kata look at it on the surface and say "that's crap it would never work in a real fight". The only reason they would say such a thing is because they haven't been exposed to kata explanation at a more in depth level.

Maybe we should all believe what most Japanese Karateka try to disseminate..........things like Karate was developed by peasant farmers in Okinawa.............naihanchi kata is practiced side to side so farmers could practice in between the rice paddies. Why not.......that has been the standard explanation over here for more than 50 years............and still is for some people here. Even though there is not one ounce of fact or evidence to support such claims.



To those of you that think kata is useless/ stupid waste of time...............fine it's your opinion. But don't come into this forum and spray your opinion all over the place like a dog taking a piss on a fire hydrant...............then it is no longer an opinion it just means you are looking for trouble.
In the end for those of you that say you do understand kata and still feel it is a waste, all I can say is that if you really understood it we would be having this conversation.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by sweeper



one field cricket, you said karte forms are practiced solo? Now I know next to nothing about karate, but I was under the impretion that the forms could be practiced with a partner (or perhaps modified so they could be practiced wtih a partner) this correcT?

The forms can be practiced alone although some, very few, are practiced with a partner.

The bunkai from the forms are practiced with a partner to various levels of speed and realism dependent on the level of the people practicing. This is similar in the way that judoka work on specific throws, boxers work on certain punches against a bag, or kendoka work on certain cuts. Practicing them over and over to make them second nature.