Katas keep them or chuck them ?

[Bushido]

Dont you think it would be interesting to transfrom to fit more the 21 century? Instead of having the fist to hip while punching, it would be nice to have that hand to protect the face. Even the too long stances could be changed for shorter one. This is what Sensei Kenji Tokitsu did. He is a great karate philosopher.

-Bushido

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Bushido, I believe your in the wrong century? I think it's the 22nd century. Who care's, any way the hand on the hip is a capture hand. Or pulling a hand into you followed with a strike. I don't know about you but I do grappling/NHB and I have used this technique several times. But many of the techniques from kata's may not be out dated, look and see how you would fit them into today's Martial Arts. The horse stance one example, I've used it for an arm bar. How about Grappling have you heard of the mount what are you doing. Yes you are on your knees but it is the same concept. Knee on the Stomach again horse stance, maybe not done like a traditional Martial Artist. But it is very close to a horse stance
Bob :asian:

 

[sweeper]

no... it is the 21st century.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I have been watching too much Star Wars. Got in the wrong Century.
Thanks
Bob

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I have been watching too much Star Wars. Got in the wrong Century.
Thanks
Bob

Star Wars!!!!!!!!! I guess you could be in right room for that because that's where katas and their stance belong.It's all fiction.

 

[Bushido]

You're right Kempojujutsu, some "techniques" can be keep, some thrown away. I do bjj, I agree that some positions are alike. But in my post I was refering more to "zenkutsu-dachi" attack stance. In my experience, it is rarely used in a dynamic fight, we use a more shorter position that allow rapid direction change.

I've been practicing kata for 12-13 years, but now, I prefer drills and sparring.I keep the traditionnal karate spirit alive through these practice.

-Bushido

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Have the kata's you learnt in the past helped you get as far as you have made it in the martial arts so far? maybe the knowledge you do not realize you picked up from the katas have helped you get to where you are today? Maybe they have helped you get to where you want to be now.

I admit katas have helped me to some degree,they helped me understand what they're meant for although I no longer agree with doing them.

From learning katas,in my opinion have been able to distinguish between traditional arts(arts studying katas) and non-traditional(where we don't learn katas at all).I know Pankration is traditional in the sense that it is an old art but what I mean by traditional is one that believes in doing forms.

However old Pankration is,it changes as time goes by and new techniques are always being added.It is an art that continues to evolve.

Yes Katas have helped me to some point,but they are over rated in many martial arts schools.What I mean is instead of maybe doing it once in a blue moon they are practiced in every day,in every class or almost every class for some.

Katas helped me learn to focus,balance and become more co-ordinated but as I have mentioned before and will once again do so,that is all they are really good for.Okay so some hidden techniques might be useful but how many actually are?Very Few.

Most people join martial arts for self-defense and the bunkai for most techniques within the katas would never work.

If people wanted to just keep fit they'd chose something like aerobics but they chose martial arts to do both keep fit and learn self-defense at least that's why I did anyways.Of course I can't speak for everyone but that was the reason I first took up karate.I expected more out of it.

I thought I was getting everything I needed out of it but then 3yrs ago realised I wasn't and could get much more doing Pankration.I may try other arts as well in future not sure which one as of yet.

I believe one should keep an open mind and learn from their experiences,both good and bad.

Don't get me wrong I enjoyed my years in karate and have no regret about doing it,I just wish I had tried something new sooner instead of staying in it 12yrs I should have stayed perhaps 7.

I shouldn't completely put down katas,but I do want to ignore them in my training.I don't believe in doing them if it's for self-defense purposes.

I admit I sometimes go over my forms at home but not very often.I just do it for fun though.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by asoka



...........Katas helped me learn to focus,balance and become more co-ordinated but as I have mentioned before and will once again do so,that is all they are really good for. Okay so some hidden techniques might be useful but how many actually are?Very Few.

They teach a hell of a lot more than that. If all you learned was focus and balance you have either yourself or you instructor to blame.

Originally posted by asoka

..........Most people join martial arts for self-defense and the bunkai for most techniques within the katas would never work.

Oh really? I say it does............and have actually seen them work...........again if the bunkai you were taught didn't work you have either yourself to blame for not being able to do it properly or you instructor to blame for not showing you decent "usable" bunkai.
You cannot blame the art for something either you or your instructor didn't/couldn't understand.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I believe Chinese forms, from Tai Chi are easier to figure out the self defense from then Okinawan Kata's.
Bob :asian:

Matt Stone who is a Taichi/Chinese Stylist and regular poster on this BB came by my dojo today. He and did some comparisons of kata movement and technique and a lot of what we do in Okinawan style kata is very similar to the Chinese moves that they do. It was very interesting.

 

[Bushido]

RyuShiKan, on your web site, the picture, is that the dojo you train in? Wow, that seems BEAUTIFUL , surounded by trees. Do you have others pictures of that dojo that you could share with us?

Thanks!

-Bushido

 

[RyuShiKan]

That is the old dojo. Here are some photos of the new one.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Outside

 

[RyuShiKan]

Inside

 

[RyuShiKan]

Fish pond with no fish in it.

 

[Matt Stone]

Not to seem arrogant, but what the hell...

I have been practicing forms for going on 17 years now. There have been forms that I started out hating that I eventually fell in love with, and there have been forms that I originally liked, but later liked less...

I practiced them at first because I was told I had to. I practice them now because they are the best way, training alone, for me to make an attempt at maintaining my knowledge and skills (though they are by no means a substitute for partner practice).

Forms teach many things - distance, timing, balance, endurance, combinations, joint locks, strategic perception, proper footwork, correct stance to generate power and maintain stability (and if you are fighting from a zenkutsu dachi thinking it is meant to be held while confronting an opponent, and base your removal of forms practice on that kind of an experience, both you AND your teacher need to be ***** slapped for being just plain stupid...), and much, much more.

Forms are the textbooks of your martial education. If you think you can learn a subject without ever cracking a book, fine. Go to college and forget to buy your texts... When you are failing every class, come see me and do your best to convince me why your failure to grasp the class material is somehow the instructor's fault and not yours...

The people that are most loudly decrying the purpose, utility and necessity of forms are those who understand them the least, learned them incompletely from instructors either ignorant of their real use or ignorant of their real content.

They need to go back and practice their forms more, not less. If it was their instructor's fault for not communicating the content of the forms, then they should seek out new instructors.

If the persons complaining about the uselessness of forms are coming from backgrounds that are either of questionable legitimacy (a la "Bill's Super Chinese Karate-jutsu-do," or Sifu Shihan Soke Hanshi Koucho Billy's Okinawan Chinese Acrobatic Ballet and Self-defense Meditation schools, Inc.," etc...), or outlandishly poor education (being unaware of the real history of their styles, being unaware of the real country and language of origin of their styles, etc.), then they have themselves to blame for having made a poor choice when entering into the martial world to begin with. When I first joined, it was the result of over 6 months of research into the schools in my city... and that was not due to insight, wisdom or maturity (I was all of 16 years old), just good consumer awareness.

Martial arts must grow, as all things must, in order to survive and prosper. But that doesn't mean that someone today, in 2002, knows better than someone from 1584, just because today is today and 1584 is the "old way." Surprisingly, they had the same situations arise that we have today, and we may just be reinventing the wheel by trying to create our own forms from nothing... I teach the same forms my teacher taught me, and I teach them in the same way. But I encourage the people I train with to look deeply into the forms - find applications that my teacher didn't teach me and that I didn't teach them. Use the forms to remember concepts and theories, not just techniques and combinations. Our art is still quite alive, thankyouverymuch.

Bottom line - forms must be practiced. To do otherwise is to limit your ability to understand what is being taught.

:samurai: :tank:

And RyuShiKan is correct - I stopped by his dojo and got a REAL education... I am bruised on my bruises and blissfully happy for the experience. Go ahead, say forms are crap and the bunkai are useless... Then go to RyuShiKan's dojo and ask him to prove to you otherwise... Go ahead, I dare you. When you are looking back up at him from a place somewhere on the floor, with one or more limbs screaming in pain and a complete inability to regain control of your body, you can continue to tell him how he is just full of so much hot air...

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


Martial arts must grow, as all things must, in order to survive and prosper. But that doesn't mean that someone today, in 2002, knows better than someone from 1584, just because today is today and 1584 is the "old way." Surprisingly, they had the same situations arise that we have today, and we may just be reinventing the wheel by trying to create our own forms from nothing... I teach the same forms my teacher taught me, and I teach them in the same way. But I encourage the people I train with to look deeply into the forms - find applications that my teacher didn't teach me and that I didn't teach them. Use the forms to remember concepts and theories, not just techniques and combinations. Our art is still quite alive, thankyouverymuch.

Bottom line - forms must be practiced. To do otherwise is to limit your ability to understand what is being taught.

Yiliquan1,

I agree 100% with the above statement.
One thing I am wondering though is................is it the Martial Art that is really growing or is it the Martial Artist that is growing and it just seems like the art is.........I dunno.....

I do know that some days when I train I remember something my teacher told me about a certain move or concept a year or so before that I didn't understand then at all but suddenly becomes crystal clear. I think just becuase you didn't understand something at the time doesn't mean it is crap............it just means you weren't ready for it.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


And RyuShiKan is correct - I stopped by his dojo and got a REAL education... I am bruised on my bruises and blissfully happy for the experience. Go ahead, say forms are crap and the bunkai are useless... Then go to RyuShiKan's dojo and ask him to prove to you otherwise... Go ahead, I dare you. When you are looking back up at him from a place somewhere on the floor, with one or more limbs screaming in pain and a complete inability to regain control of your body, you can continue to tell him how he is just full of so much hot air...

Yiliquan1 (Matt),

Your are more than welcome to stop by anytime and I have to say you are one of the strongest martial Arts people I have met in Japan. I don't think I have seen anyone with forearms the size of my thigh before! I bet you wrist curl about 400lbs. don't you!

 

[Chiduce]

Keep the katas. Katas or/and forms were designed not only for your understanding of self defense, but also (and i would say mainly) to strengthen the whole body. Blocking reps. build muscle. Punching Reps; build proper mental coordination; ( left and right brain retention). Kicking Reps, build leg muscles and help strenghten the joints and ligaments of the legs and feet. Stances; build body posture, strong legs, back, torso, and aid in proper rooting. If one cannot sit in a one legged stance with the other leg across the knee holding the left budda hand? Then, how can one see the negatives of the benefits of the form? Kata teaches both standard and reverse abdominal breathing! Even the techiques we use as defense against an attacker, if executed slowly in consistent motion transform into form or kata. Without kata, there is no defense of self!:asian: Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[sweeper]

I don't think he's gona go all the way to japan to argue a point

Bottom line - forms must be practiced. To do otherwise is to limit your ability to understand what is being taught.

Yiliquan1 do you mean for all arts or the arts in question?

actualy this brought up a question I was wondering.. are there any arts that practice forms that could have the forms removed at no loss?

 

[Matt Stone]

Katas or/and forms were designed not only for your understanding of self defense, but also (and i would say mainly) to strengthen the whole body.

Chiduce, I think you and I finally agree on something!

Yiliquan1 do you mean for all arts or the arts in question?

actualy this brought up a question I was wondering.. are there any arts that practice forms that could have the forms removed at no loss?

All arts that have forms have them for a reason. Look at the relative simplicity of boxing or Muay Thai as an example, as compared to Okinawan Karate or Baguazhang. You could easily master (I hate that term) Muay Thai in several years - develop the strength, stamina, physique, reflexes and techniques, and there you have it. But it will take decades to "master" a style like Bagua. Why? Because there is much more contained in that art.

Why is TKD frowned upon so much? They practice forms, don't they? They do, but easily 90% of all the information contained in forms is lost to most TKD people. The TKD people may flame me in response to this, and that is fine by me, but it is the exception (not the rule) that TKD people haven't got clue one about what is contained in their forms. If they did, they wouldn't hop around like rabbits on crack when they fight (they would resemble their forms instead).

Is there an art that could lose its forms at no loss to that style? I doubt it, but that is my opinion only...

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

I do know that some days when I train I remember something my teacher told me about a certain move or concept a year or so before that I didn't understand then at all but suddenly becomes crystal clear. I think just becuase you didn't understand something at the time doesn't mean it is crap............it just means you weren't ready for it.

One of the people in Yili that is WAY senior to me (I suspect I'll pay for that comment... ) that posts here, Chufeng, once commented to one of our junior students that was having difficulty with his training at one point that "You ARE a Yili master. Just not YET."

That comment has stuck with me, along with "When the student is ready, a teacher will appear."

It is surprising (but not altogether that much so) how much forms have to teach... Like you said, you can be doing something for years and not get it, then one day BANG there is is... I think forms are this way for a reason, and like you implied it was not that there was no information to convey, just that the student was not prepared to recognize it when it presented itself...