Kata bunkai for self defense

[Tez3]

If a technique can be used in many different ways, it will require many different "set ups". Unfortunately, the form/kata can only "record" 1 set up.

Will both follow on moves (after downward parry) be recorded in the form/kata? The chance is very small.

These comments show you don't understand what kata is and how Bunkai is studied, I think you are jumping on the bandwagon of slagging kata off because you think it sounds cool to. Explanations are been given time and time again but you don't want to understand what kata or Bunkai is, as for the comment about the 'worship' of kata that is verging on being insulting. I will say nothing more than it's very disappointing that a martial artist's cup is full and brings it here overflowing.

 

[drop bear]

These comments show you don't understand what kata is and how Bunkai is studied, I think you are jumping on the bandwagon of slagging kata off because you think it sounds cool to. Explanations are been given time and time again but you don't want to understand what kata or Bunkai is, as for the comment about the 'worship' of kata that is verging on being insulting. I will say nothing more than it's very disappointing that a martial artist's cup is full and brings it here overflowing.

The explanations tend not to make much sense is all. If they were better more people possibly would understand.

And we would have better discussion.

 

[Tez3]

The explanations tend not to make much sense is all. If they were better more people possibly would understand.

And we would have better discussion.

So you don't think articles written by such people as Iain Abernethy, and posted by us make any sense? You don't think that blaming everyone who posted an explanation for your lack of understanding is a bit odd?

 

[Tez3]

The Pinan-Heian Series as a Fighting System
1. The Pinan / Heian Series as a Fighting System: Part One
2. The Pinan / Heian Series as a Fighting System: Part Two
3. The Pinan / Heian Series as a Fighting System: Part Three
4. The Pinan / Heian Series as a Fighting System: Part Four
5. The Pinan / Heian Series as a Fighting System: Part Five
The Basics of Bunkai (Kata Application)
1. The Basics of Bunkai: Part 1
2. The Basics of Bunkai: Part 2
3. The Basics of Bunkai: Part 3
4. The Basics of Bunkai: Part 4
5. The Basics of Bunkai: Part 5
6. The Basics of Bunkai: Part 6
7. The Basics of Bunkai: Part 7
8. The Basics of Bunkai: Part 8

 

[Tez3]

Iain Abernethy The practical application of Karate

 

[Tez3]

As you think our explanations are unintelligible perhaps you will understand what an accepted expert ( and not just by karateka) has to say, perhaps you'd like to expand as well on the kata used in Judo?

 

[clautz]

Agree! If you can't evolve your forms/kata, you are just a good copy machine, no more and not less. You will have no contribution to your MA system.


In the

- beginner stage training, forms/kata will change you.
- advance stage training, you should change forms/kata.

When you are in

- high school, you will read books that somebody wrote.
- PhD level, you start to write papers that others will read.

If you are a master and recognized by the Rengo-Kai as such – go ahead, change the kata. But as soon as you do also know that you will be a ronin in the eyes of the Rengo-kai for breaking with tradition. Every change moves the kata further and further away from its intent until all meaning is lost and as students become teachers and their students change things – all is lost.

Much of this focus on bunkai of late to find “the secret meaning of kata” is oft done by folks who just make stuff up to impress their students; make a name for themselves, or for profit. Few have been trained with bunkai from a recognized master but claim to be masters themselves. The tradition of the kata and its purity need to be honored as most masters will tell you.

In my earlier post I mentioned there are seven aspects to kata (pattern, breathing, combination/timing, bunkai, tight/no-tight, kiai and eyes (spirit). Bunkai is one of the seven aspects of kata – not the only aspect which so many focus on as tactical technicians (a technician is not a warrior but bookworms studying a scroll they don’t understand) and ignore the value of the other aspects. Training in all of these aspects will improve fighting skill as well as heart and mind.

There are no secrets in Karate.

 

[drop bear]

So you don't think articles written by such people as Iain Abernethy, and posted by us make any sense? You don't think that blaming everyone who posted an explanation for your lack of understanding is a bit odd?

Some people make sense and some don't. Some elements make sense and some don't.

You are generalizing a bit here.

 

[Tez3]

The explanations tend not to make much sense is all. If they were better more people possibly would understand.

I don't think I'm the one generalising here, you said the explanations, you didn't specify whose, just indicated that all of them didn't make sense.

 

[Drose427]

Two of the big disconnects that havent been brought up:

Drop Bear, forms do change. They've been changing since they were created. In this year alone, my KJN has changed 4 or 5 things. while they seem like minor changes, actually affect how one would use it in a fight

Random example: If a punch in a form gets shorter, now I have to be close to use it

Second, The order of moves in a form is only pertinent when performing that specific form.

Not when doing any sort of Bunkai or SD drilling.

Remember forms are a dictionary. To make a coherent sentence with a dictionary, you have the flip though different parts of the book.

Sometimes Bunkai are simpler to accomplish when you "mix 'n match"

 

[ShotoNoob]

I think this reinforces my point. These are the top guys of their styles and as you said, the changes are minimal. Kung Fu Wang was suggesting that we should be changing the kata ourselves. Now, I reckon that I know a little more about kata than most guys but I am a minnow compared to the guys you have named. In my circle of training Masaji Taira is a giant in the field of Bunkai, yet even he maintains the kata that he was taught.

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Shotonoob here.
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I always thought the challenge & the lesson of traditional karate was to get really good at kata.
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TMA practitioners who don't, then can't effectuate kata skills in application, then want to change what they can't do well. Make perfect sense for the egotistical.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Our "official" bunkai for Seisan looks a bit like this:

. There are some differences, but they are quite minor. From these we can then extract some more realistic applications, but they should still use the same principles as in the official version.

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Your concept of kata was always plain to me.
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Critics of kata just don't have the discipline or patience or thinking chops to study kata seriously. So the kata critics criticize what they are insufficient in character to attain.... Traditional karate kata is not for the "hard rollers," it's for the thinkers who seek to develop the mental strengths to take on the "hard rollers."

 

[ShotoNoob]

...
The day my teacher told me that form/kata is for teaching and learning only. It's not for "training". That was the most valuable MA lesson that I have learned in my life. Every time I did my form/kata, I put different "soul" into my "dead" form and gave my form/kata different "spirit".

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I don't know what all the confusion is about. Dead kata/ / Live Kata? You are either doing kata the way the Okinawan Masters intended or you're not.
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These phrases like, "...kata is for teachning only. It's not for training." While apparently helpful for you to get out of some kind of kata-funk, is silly.
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I never heard any statement like that from any TMA instructor. Kata is a part of the traditional martial art training, Okinawan, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, American TMA.
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On of the most valuable lessons of such statements are the temptation to over-think -the qualities of kata, rather than just think about what the Master's intended to begin with.

 

[ShotoNoob]

...You said, "Better to do your kata as hard as you can - over and over again, visualize your opponent (simple bunkai); and have spirit!" I would suggest that this advice will ensure you never get past basic level karate, even though you will be exceptionally good at it.

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Exceptionally good @ what? Unfortunately we have the global, [I'll borrow a phrase-from-K-MAN] your "modern," Shotokan kata versions which tend to employ rigid tension & heavy physical force.
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Nonetheless, kata was never intended by the Master's to be trained with full physical strength. Kata is a training exercise, a developmental exercise, not a weight-lifting, resistive physical exercise of maximum aerobic output....where the body functions just takes over..... Never.
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The practitioner you mention may get good at a physical demonstration, yet one that doesn't even qualify for traditional kihon karate.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I think this reinforces my point. These are the top guys of their styles and as you said, the changes are minimal. Kung Fu Wang was suggesting that we should be changing the kata ourselves.

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The Masters at my dojo are strict traditionalist and don't change or adapt the kata. I agree in principle; where I disagree it that the rule is an absolute about something man-made.
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So I think it's ok to change a kata (which I don't really spend a whole lot of time on but have done so--that's a whole 'nother topic);however, we are then faced with: "Why are we changing kata which was developed by expert, authorities, TMA masters?"
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I suppose if you believe you are not more knowledgeable & skilled at what the original kata offered, you're now qualified to change them. Who determines whether you are @ that level and by what standards is one so qualified?
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Good luck with that.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Our "official" bunkai for Seisan looks a bit like this: [edit]. There are some differences, but they are quite minor. From these we can then extract some more realistic applications, but they should still use the same principles as in the official version.

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Precisely.

 

[drop bear]

I don't think I'm the one generalising here, you said the explanations, you didn't specify whose, just indicated that all of them didn't make sense.

I don't have to I did not make that statement in a vacuum. It is in response to a conversation I was having.

So it would be specifically the people I am conversing with. There are other posters who have different views. Like kung fu wang who consider kata a mouldable tool.

Ian atherby might have a different view again.

You are the one who has jumped mid conversation and said that everybody is kata bashing. And again I think kung fu wang does kata.

I am not going to recap on every post just so people don have to follow the conversation it would be a painful way to discuss things.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You are the one who has jumped mid conversation and said that everybody is kata bashing. And again I think kung fu wang does kata.

Just to be clear, not only I train form/kata (if we agree that form and kata are the same thing), I may have trained more forms than most people in this forum have. If you have trained more than 50 forms/katas then you beat me.

Here are my personal form/kata clips. I can at least put up more than 20 of my personal form/kata clips if I have to. It just proves that I do train form/kata and I'm not "form/kata bashing".

Sorry that both clips were recorded about 44 years ago. I just can't do form/kata with that kind of speed any more.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Just to be clear, not only I train form/kata, I may have trained more forms than most people in this forum have. If you have trained more than 50 forms/katas then you beat me.

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I don't recognize that quote being a comment made to you? It must be old. Anyway, I have only practiced 9 traditional karate kata, don't envision doing more than that.

Here are clips (I can at least put up 20 form/kata clips if needed) to prove that I do train form/kata and I'm not "form/kata bashing".

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Read that quote again. It indicates I am referencing you as a kata practitioner... from what you've copied. Beyond that, I can't fathom the context.
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That I may have a different take on kata / forms.... well....

 

[ShotoNoob]

...Here are clips (I can at least put up 20 form/kata clips if needed) to prove that I do train form/kata and I'm not "form/kata bashing".

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If there has been some confusion in the past, I'll like to set the record straight.
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I wouldn't consider any of the work by the person present in the vids as 'bashing' kata / forms. I'm sure my historic comment / quote has been taken out of context.
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Furthermore, I consider the CMA forms superior as a whole to the traditional karate kata that I practice, in imparting skill & power. I just practice something simpler for reasons of practicality & efficiency first.