Kara-Ho Kenpo?

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Kempo Guy & Peter,

...I just checked out The Hand is My Sword. It is the 1973 revised printing. In the glossary under 'H' it has the term 'hon ken' , next to it is the definition: 'four wrist-fist'.

Just checked the Japanese dictionary on the web. It lists "hon" as a prefix meaning (among others) "main" or "head". This leads me to believe that Mr. Trias meant "fore-wrist fist" rather than "four wrist-fist".

 

[Karazenpo]

Randy, that could very well be it! Thanks. Like Peter stated there were many mistakes. Also Peter, no, I did not get your e-mail and I checked to make sure I hadn't accidentally blocked you. I don't get it. We had this problem before, remember? I just sent you a private e-mail from hotmail let me know if you get it. "Joe"

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Karazenpo

Here's a question, though, how about #4 Kata in SKK, that is actually a modified version of Okinawan Pinan #1/Shotokan Heian#2!

Only the opening sequense of these forms are the same, with different bunkai. The idea tho, came from pinan/heian.

Also, no, I didn't get your e-mail. Let me check for blocked numbers, maybe at one time when I was deleting my old inbox messages I accidentally hit block, it's right next to the delete on hotmail.

I did e-mail you my # yesterday and this morning responded to your e-mail as "I got it". Anyway you can find my # on my website.

Here are some terminologies pertaining to FIST:

Seiken (genko)- fore-knuckle fist
Hira ken- four finger fist (leopard fist)
yoko ken- horizontal fist
Tate ken- vertical fist
gyaku ken - inverted fist (back two knuckle)
uraken (riken)- back fist
ippon ken- index-knuckle fist
nakadaka ken- middle knucke fist.aka, dragon head or phoenix fist
Kakuto- bent wrist, fore-wrist or crane strike

I don't know about "four wrist"! Only got two.LOL

Salute,

 

[Michael Billings]

But isn't "The ankle is the wrist of the foot" Yellow Belt saying applicable here?

Whoops, that is an EPAK thing.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
But isn't "The ankle is the wrist of the foot" Yellow Belt saying applicable here?

Whoops, that is an EPAK thing.

Oss,
-Michael

Oh yeah, I forgot about those. Aren't those sayings great!
My Favorites are: Right...but left...., Ears are eyes..., and the best of all, hesitate...meditate...

Osu,

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
But isn't "The ankle is the wrist of the foot" Yellow Belt saying applicable here?

i'm totally lost.

it'd be nice if you can explain why you wrote this in a cleaner manner.

 

[Karazenpo]

I was thinking tonight (no comments,lol) over a' few' beers and the 'hon' thing in Honsuki is really a moot point. What I mean is the actually spelling is not even Honsuki, right? it's Hansuki, so what are we discussing? We're basing everything on a mispelling in the first place. The other thing is #4 kata in SKK. #4 kata is no more altered than the original Hansuki is with SSK's Honsuki and Nick Cerio's Cat #5 (his version of Hansuki), just ask Shihans John James and Rick Chamberlain! As far as the bunkai goes I'll say this.....I have a collection of martial art magazines over the years I keep for nostalgia (sp.?) and reference. One of them has the bunkai of Okinawan pinan #1 which is Karazenpo's and Shaolin Kempo's fourth form and the application is the same as what Gm. George Pesare gives us! I will also say, the original Karazenpo version from Mr. Gascon to Mr. Pesare is not the same as Mr. Villari's version, not radically altered but definitely different. Whether he altered it or Nick Cerio I do not know. Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras

 

[Karazenpo]

I would also like to state as far as debating over the name of a form. Senior Grandmaster S. George Pesare created a drill into a from in the month of February so what did he call it? 'The February Drill', who cares!, it's a great form and the name is only a way to catorgorize it, that's it! So whether its called pinan, kata set, form or drill, who really cares as long it is productive and functional. In all due respect, instead of feeling we're infringing on some traditonal off limits area by calling a particular form a pinan, what really difference does it make? And to be honest if Fred Villari created Sho Tung Kwok, and we know he did, he could call it "Harold" if he wanted too, it's his form, lol. Respectfully, Shihan Joe

 

[John Bishop]

Simple fact of life. History is made as it occurs. After the fact it is imposible to go back and correct or change it.

 

[kenmpoka]

Joe buddy,
looks like you had one too many! Why do you keep going back to your original statements once we have explored and agreed on the correct way! "Honsuki", you mentioned that one of your teachers spelled it that way, and based on that spelling translated it to something else. Right! "Hansuki" is the correct way of spelling.

Since when is Mr. Pesare's title Senior GM? Doesn't that belong to his teacher? Just curious.

As a good teacher you are obligated to pass on the correct information to your students. Believe me, the smart ones will question and blame you if otherwise. Don't be bound to mistakes just because they were made from ignorance and we know better now.. What is wrong, is wrong.

to be honest if Fred Villari created Sho Tung Kwok, and we know he did, he could call it "Harold" if he wanted too, it's his form, lol.

Again, why are you insisting on this? What is his is his, but it is not in CHINESE! Why don't you call him and ask him. May be his excellency will have an answer! I doubt it though.

In regards to your comments on infringement of some off limit name Pinan, why don't we call BMW, CHEVY from here on just because we want to!

Whats up with the e-mail thing?. Don't make me come to your neck of woods.LOL
Seriously though, its all in good.

Salute.

 

[Karazenpo]

Hey Peter, I knew you were going to say I had one too many but the truth of the matter is, I did!!!!!!! LOL. No, I do agree on the proper spelling of Hansuki with the 'a' but the Villari system spells it with the 'o' what I mean't was since it is a mispelling in the first place the true definition of 'hon' which we were pursuing wouldn't matter anyway. No what I mean? (I haven't had a beer yet,l ol). As far as e-mailing Mr. Villari's organization with questions I have in the past and even left a phone number but never got a response. my opinion on Sho Tung Kwok is simply he created it he can call it what he wants whether the name makes sense or not, just like parents can name their kids with whatever name they choose, remember 'Moon-Unit' Zapper!, lol. We may not agree but I feel its their write. master Chun told me for instance if someone alters a form such as Hansuki, that's okay with him but they should always give credit to the creator of the form and always refer to it as Hansuki.
Mr. Pesare has the title of Senior Grandmaster as in regards to 'senority' within the Kaito Gakko. It simply distinguishes him as the senior instructor over the other grandmasters in the organization. I would believe also that even so, being in Kempo for almost four and a half decades of continuous study, teaching and overall propagation of the art along with his ageand being the undisputed New England founder would most definitely qualify him as a Senior Grandmaster in Karazenpo.

Gotta go. As a matter of fact I'm heading over to his school now with Hanshi Craig Seavey for some 'bladefighting'. Take care, bro, always a pleasure even when we disagree! We really should hook up someday! By the way, between us, do you remember something about a 'buffoon'?, LOL! I thought you'd like that one! God bless! "Joe"

 

[Gentle Fist]

Kempo Guy & Peter,

First , Brother Peter, I just checked out The Hand is My Sword. It is the 1973 revised printing. In the glossary under 'H' it has the term 'hon ken' , next to it is the definition: 'four wrist-fist'. That's all I can tell you about that Peter, but that's where i got it. "Suki", I thought I read it in the same book but I was mistaken. It was another book I have but the name eludes me right now, the definition was, however, 'opening'.

Kempo Guy, I will trace back the lineage for you in Shaolin Kempo to explain the origins of the pinans used, this will clear up any confusion. Okay, Gm. S. George Pesare learned from Sijo Victor 'Sonny' Gascon. Sijo Gascon learned from Sifu John Leoning who was of Sijo Adriano Emperado's Kajukenbo system. Gm. Pesare taught Professor Nick Cerio and in turn Professor Cerio taught Gm. Fred Villari. In the mid 60's when Professor Cerio was still training at Gm. Pesare's school, Gm. Pesare decided to add Taikyoku shodan which was adopted from the system of Mas Oyama. (Oyama was a Korean who studied Shotokan, Goju ryu, Chinese Kempo-the actual kung fu version and judo). This was done to add a form for beginners that would have been easier to learn than Karazenpo's first form which you know as #1 kata. For a reason I do not as of yet know this form was named #1 Pinan, possibly because the Kajukenbo forms at the time were called pinans. That would be my educated guess. Later, after Professor Cerio branched out on his own he used the Taikyoku series of shodan, nidan and sandan from Oyama's system (these were beginner forms of Shotokan origin, called the 'first cause forms' or the student's 'first look' at Shotokan.) and created what he called #2 Pinan, a 'hybrid' which is the seond form in SKK. Professor Cerio than adopted Oyama's versions of #3, #4 & #5 to complete the 5 pinan series. As Brother Peter stated, 3-5 were accurate names for these katas. #'s 3, 4 & 5 go back to the orignal 5 pinan series of Okinawan karate. In Shotokan they are called the Heian series. An interesting note I mentioned in a previous post is that Cerio at the time could not teach the exact pinan series anyway, even if he wanted to, as at the time he was teaching Karazenpo and it would conflict with Karazenpo's original kata series. The reason, Karazenpo's fourth form which is #4 Kata of SKK is actually a modified version of Okinawan Pinan #1. When Master Funakoshi introduced karate to Japan he called this series 'Heian' which I believe stood for 'peaceful shrine' and pinan meaning 'peaceful mind', a form of moving meditation. He then reversed the sequence of numbers one and two because he felt Okinawan Pinan #1 was too difficult to be given first in that series. Perhaps Brother Peter, who is also very knowledgable on this can add something here that I may have missed. I believe Peter and I are on the same page on this part of kempo history.
Respectfully submitted.

Wow, thanks for all the great info, this is great stuff about the history of NCK.. A couple of quick questions Prof. Joe..

From what I understand there is 5 Blocking Forms, 5 Pinans, 5 Cats Forms...

How many animal forms are included in NCK? I formally only know of Circle of the Tiger, Leopard, Panther, and Statue of the Crane. Is there a Form for the Snake and Dragon? If so, where did Professor Cerio learn these additional forms? Thanks for any and all of your help!!!

 

[Karazenpo]

Wow, thanks for all the great info, this is great stuff about the history of NCK.. A couple of quick questions Prof. Joe..

From what I understand there is 5 Blocking Forms, 5 Pinans, 5 Cats Forms...

How many animal forms are included in NCK? I formally only know of Circle of the Tiger, Leopard, Panther, and Statue of the Crane. Is there a Form for the Snake and Dragon? If so, where did Professor Cerio learn these additional forms? Thanks for any and all of your help!!!

Hello Fistlaw, Circle of the Tiger, Circle of the Leopard, Circle of the Panther, Statue of the Crane (Rohai), Pinans 1-3 and Cat forms 1-5. Pinans 1 and 3 correspond to Shaolin Kempo's 1 and 2. NCK Pinan 2 was inspired or suggested by Shotokan Heian 1 which is Okinawan's Pinan 2 but radically alterred. Cat's 1 & 2 are altered versions of Shaolin Kempo's Pinans 3 & 4. Cat 4 is his own creation. Cat 5 was inspired by Hansuki. Circle of the Panther was suggested by Shaolin Kempo's #6 kata and of course, Circles of the Tiger & Leopard by #1 & #2 kata. Blocking forms 1-5. Lin Wan Kune (Continuous returning fist) was from Sil Lum Kung Fu and was taught to the Professor by two Chinese masters, their names allude me for the moment but I have them recorded at my school, one put out a book on the form. He taught a short form called 'Waza' (technique) and he also taught Bassai that he originally learned from Gm. George Pesare. I'm sure I'm missing a couple but that's all I personally know of. He also taught many traditional weapons, bo, sai, kamas, sword, etc. He told me he had 20 empty hand forms in NCK. I don't recall him ever mentioning or practicing any animal forms other than those I listed but he may have. I never heard or saw any while I was with him. Hope this helps, Professor Joe

 

[Karazenpo]

Hello Fistlaw, Circle of the Tiger, Circle of the Leopard, Circle of the Panther, Statue of the Crane (Rohai), Pinans 1-3 and Cat forms 1-5. Pinans 1 and 3 correspond to Shaolin Kempo's 1 and 2. NCK Pinan 2 was inspired or suggested by Shotokan Heian 1 which is Okinawan's Pinan 2 but radically alterred. Cat's 1 & 2 are altered versions of Shaolin Kempo's Pinans 3 & 4. Cat 4 is his own creation. Cat 5 was inspired by Hansuki. Circle of the Panther was suggested by Shaolin Kempo's #6 kata and of course, Circles of the Tiger & Leopard by #1 & #2 kata. Blocking forms 1-5. Lin Wan Kune (Continuous returning fist) was from Sil Lum Kung Fu and was taught to the Professor by two Chinese masters, their names allude me for the moment but I have them recorded at my school, one put out a book on the form. He taught a short form called 'Waza' (technique) and he also taught Bassai that he originally learned from Gm. George Pesare. I'm sure I'm missing a couple but that's all I personally know of. He also taught many traditional weapons, bo, sai, kamas, sword, etc. He told me he had 20 empty hand forms in NCK. I don't recall him ever mentioning or practicing any animal forms other than those I listed but he may have. I never heard or saw any while I was with him. Hope this helps, Professor Joe

I almost forgot, he taught a two man fist set also, I believe he got that from Ed Parker.

 

[Gentle Fist]

Thanks a ton Prof. Joe!!!

 

[Karazenpo]

Thanks a ton Prof. Joe!!!

You're very welcome, Sir!

 

[Gentle Fist]

Prof Joe,

Just thought of a couple more questions, sorry for being so nosey but you are just so good at knocking these out of the air for me...

The two man set is the same set that is featured in the Master's Text correct?

A couple of years ago, my instructor at the time showed the class "Waza Shodan". He told us it was one of the many Waza forms Professor Cerio came up with. We only worked on it for 2 weeks, then he never went over it again, and he never expected us to really remember it. I do remember it being fairly easy to go through and it only seemed to be forward and backward with 180 degree turns at certain joints of the form.

And one question about Professor Chow....

I saw an article that listed him as a 15th Jugo Dan. Is that a 15th Dan?? How is that possible or is 15th something to do with his generation in the system?

Many thanks once again!!

 

[Matt]

Prof Joe,

Just thought of a couple more questions, sorry for being so nosey but you are just so good at knocking these out of the air for me...

The two man set is the same set that is featured in the Master's Text correct?

I'm not Prof. Shuras, but I'll confirm that one. The two man set you see Nick Cerio's "The Master's Text" is essentially the same as the Parker two man set. An early version of it appears in Ed Parker's "Secrets of Chinese Karate" as well, but a more similar version exists on video with Ed Parker performing it with Chuck Sullivan if I recall correctly (I saw it at Kenpojoe's place). Again, if memory serves, this set was created by Jimmy Woo.

A couple of years ago, my instructor at the time showed the class "Waza Shodan". He told us it was one of the many Waza forms Professor Cerio came up with. We only worked on it for 2 weeks, then he never went over it again, and he never expected us to really remember it. I do remember it being fairly easy to go through and it only seemed to be forward and backward with 180 degree turns at certain joints of the form.

And one question about Professor Chow....

I saw an article that listed him as a 15th Jugo Dan. Is that a 15th Dan?? How is that possible or is 15th something to do with his generation in the system?

Many thanks once again!!

The Jugo Dan / 15th degree came about as a reactionary measure. Essentially he saw several of his students claiming 10th dan, and said, well if he's a tenth than I'm a 15th...

Hope that helps.

Matt

 

[Karazenpo]

I'm not Prof. Shuras, but I'll confirm that one. The two man set you see Nick Cerio's "The Master's Text" is essentially the same as the Parker two man set. An early version of it appears in Ed Parker's "Secrets of Chinese Karate" as well, but a more similar version exists on video with Ed Parker performing it with Chuck Sullivan if I recall correctly (I saw it at Kenpojoe's place). Again, if memory serves, this set was created by Jimmy Woo.



The Jugo Dan / 15th degree came about as a reactionary measure. Essentially he saw several of his students claiming 10th dan, and said, well if he's a tenth than I'm a 15th...

Hope that helps.

Matt

Hello Matt, hope all is well. Yeah, I heard the same thing about Chow's 15th degree. He got sick and tired of all the self promotions of his kenpo/kempo juniors and called himself 15th degree Black Belt with the title "Master of the Universe", lol, and challenged anyone to call him on it. A while ago I received info. that SGM. Ralph Castro could confirm or debunk this so I contacted the webmaster of his Shaolin Kenpo site. He attempted to find an answer but to no avail. I have the early Parker book, "Secrets of Chinese Karate" and always thought the Cerio two-man set was an offshoot of that original, didn't know it came from Jimmy Woo though. I knew Jimmy Woo had created the first four forms of EPAK. Fistlaw, yeah, Cerio's Waza was an easy short form to learn but I am only familiar with the one, didn't see any others. Take care, Professor Joe

 

[Gentle Fist]

Prof Chow is the man!! I doubt anyone called him on it, since he was one of the best around. I have heard stories on how hard his trainings were and only the elite even got a shot to study with him.

Prof. Joe and Matt, thanks for all the answers and comments...