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CoolKempoDude
Guest
do you think your friend (John James) can help us answer Hansuki form question if it is OK ?
thanks
do you think your friend (John James) can help us answer Hansuki form question if it is OK ?
thanks
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CoolKempoDude
Guest
based on his previous post, Mr. Chun didn't show entirely form. Just a little bit here and there.
may be, kazakenpo will answer your question better than I do.
K
Karazenpo
Guest
Brother Peter, Master Chun did the form so fast I was lucky to pick up what little I did. The tiger postures, by the way, are the wide kneeling stances with both tiger claw hands in front, in other words it's not that 'Black Tiger Looking Back' posture that we practice, it's straight on. and the form also closes out with that done twice while moving back. There is no salutation and closing like we have, nothing at all like that. There appeared to be more opened hand striking to the throat and face in the rapid fire sequences. There were sweeps, forearm strikes & elbows. Again, there were also similarities and you could pick out some of the things we do in our version. I didn't notice the 'Hansuki fist' but then again I wasn't looking for it either. I am positive, however, that neither Seavey, Fritz or Villari taught it to us back then. I left in 1981 and never heard of it. This also goes for many black belts of that era I trained with. I'm sure Bill Mailman teaches the original like you stated but the question would be, from what time line or generation of black belts? In other words, I would have to say that this fist formation was added later on in the system and would explain why the older black belts never heard of it.
CoolKempoDude: I believe you wanted to know the meaning of the word Hansuki. It will be interesting to tell you that I was on the same quest for many years. I asked Professor Cerio, he was never told either and didn't know. Master John Fritz used to call it 7 Death Strikes of the Tiger, however, the only one who came up with an answer for me was Brother Peter Teymourez, so in all due respect he should answer that one for you!
Back to that fellow 1960. Yes, I have read some of his posts and found them to be very interesting. However, my question would be this. Hansuki, since it was given to Cerio and since that was in the mid-to late 60's (around the time of its inception or close to it, I believe) seems to have laways been this 'chosen' or secretive form. So, why would either Chow or Chun ever give permission for someone to film it, never mind even perform the whole thing in front of an outsider? Know what I mean? Peter, see if you can find out more from '1960', I'm curious. Respectfully submitted.
CoolKempoDude: I believe you wanted to know the meaning of the word Hansuki. It will be interesting to tell you that I was on the same quest for many years. I asked Professor Cerio, he was never told either and didn't know. Master John Fritz used to call it 7 Death Strikes of the Tiger, however, the only one who came up with an answer for me was Brother Peter Teymourez, so in all due respect he should answer that one for you!
Back to that fellow 1960. Yes, I have read some of his posts and found them to be very interesting. However, my question would be this. Hansuki, since it was given to Cerio and since that was in the mid-to late 60's (around the time of its inception or close to it, I believe) seems to have laways been this 'chosen' or secretive form. So, why would either Chow or Chun ever give permission for someone to film it, never mind even perform the whole thing in front of an outsider? Know what I mean? Peter, see if you can find out more from '1960', I'm curious. Respectfully submitted.
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CoolKempoDude
Guest
are you sure he didn't really know ??????
it is really interesting. Cerio learned this form from GM Chun Sr and didn't know what the REAL meaning of this form title is?????
i guess Cerio DID not want to tell you what it means?????
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CoolKempoDude
Guest
do you think that you can ADD OTHER information about this form in this thread if you haven't done so???
i have many questions but i'm not sure where to start. If you tell me more about this form, perhaps you will answer some of my questions or i'll ask you and other some questions down the line
K
Karazenpo
Guest
CoolKempoDude, No, I'm absolutely positive that Professor Cerio did not know. Reason: We worked on it together trying to translate it for a little while. This was around 1992, give or take. Nick was the type of guy if he didn't want to say then he would tell you just that rather than bulls..t you, lol. Look at it this way, many of us learned it from Villari but were never told it's meaning either and why? because if Mr. Cerio didn't know what it mean't then rest assure neither did Fred. That's why John Fritz referred to it as '7 death Strikes of the Tiger". I remember when I told that to Professor Cerio, he felt that no way was that the translation. Brother Peter will fill you in. Out of all my searching, Peter was the only one I found that knew it. That's how we met several years ago.
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CoolKempoDude
Guest
there is my question.
Cerio learned the *original* form FROM GM Chun SR and did not know the meaning of its title
how Brother Peter knows the title of this form even though he didn't learn the *original* ????
i don't want to be disrespectful to Peter. That is my question.
it's really confusing
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CoolKempoDude
Guest
did he tell you why he felt that way ??? did he offer you any "alternative" answer ????
will love to read more. Thank you for sharing
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Karazenpo
Guest
No problem, CoolKempo, you have always been respectful in your posts. I understand what you mean though. I'm sure Brother Peter won't take it the wrong way. He's 'cool' too, lol. Okay, Peter can fill you in on how he found out, it may have been from Master Chun, I really don't recall but the meaning is "Open & Closed Hands", the changing of the hands from closed fist to the tiger claw, etc.
[ The tiger postures, by the way, are the wide kneeling stances with both tiger claw hands in front, in other words it's not that 'Black Tiger Looking Back' posture that we practice, it's straight on. and the form also closes out with that done twice while moving back.]
B. Joe, I am not sure what you mean, but when I drop to a close kneel or a wide kneel, the claws are in front of my body (my body is reverse kneeling stance) as positional check or already delivered strikes to the groin then the high one becomes a check). We do finish with those claws as well in the end. The salutation and breathing exercises were probably Villari's doing. It does not matter if the natural weapons or targets vary from version to version as long as the pattern and ideas are the same. YOU can change the last claws to ridge hand strikes, but the idea remains pretty much intact(almost).
I don't think Cerio was taught the whole form. The form was demonstrated, probably still in its embryonic stage and completed later as well (don't you think it is possible!).
I would not put too much stock in what he says bro.
In any case Joe, we are practicing and teaching Shaolin Kempo not Goshinjutsu Kai Kempo. we can be different!
Salute,
P.S. CoolKempoDude, I think I have aready answered your question on the translation of the name. I don't think anyone else have any ideas! What system of Kempo do you study?
No Bro, the meaing can not be what I was told! Please refer back to my post on the translation of Hansuki.
Neither "Sho Tung Kwok" means "Hands and feet in Harmony"! This is the disservice of Mr. Villari passing out incorrect info. Since the Kanji are not available we will never know. I just call the form by the english name. I suppose Mr. Fritz was as frustrated as I was and gave his form a logical name! How about Nung lees? They have no meaning either! No one knows including Mr. V himself. Either incorrect pronounciation or Jibrish (sp?)
Joe, call me when you get a chance.
Salute,
K
Karazenpo
Guest
Yes, Peter. We do the reverse kneeling postion in Shaolin Kempo but in Master Chun's it was a forward kneeling postion with the circling tiger claw hands. "Black Tiger Looking Back" is just a Kung Fu term I picked up in the Five Animals set that describes our kneeling stance in Hansuki. Yeah, I forgot about the ridge hands. When Master Chun did the form he used a straight ridge hand to the groin and pull back where we use the same technique as in the ending of 5 pinan. I believe it was a favorite of Master Funakoshi? CoolKempoDude, No, Professor Cerio didn't have an explaination. I did some digging in martial arts books and in Robert Trias's 'The Hand is My Sword' I came up with a translation meaning four openings and we threw that around for a while trying to figure something out. Hon (that's how I spelled it at the time instead of Han) meaning four and Suki meaning openings. I was thinking at the time 'the four openings or pathways?????' maybe to spritual unity.....Body, mind, spirit & breath? or hard/soft, linear/hard? Hey, I was reaching a little but the Professor said the form did have those characteristics and he wrote that down on a pad. The, we just forgot about it. That was it!
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Karazenpo
Guest
Brother Peter, I just got your post after I already posted. Okay, I'll be giving you a call soon.
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Karazenpo
Guest
Peter Teymourez wrote:
I don't think Cerio was taught the whole form. The form was demonstrated, probably still in its embryonic stage and completed later as well (don't you think it is possible
Yes, Bro, I agree! I feel the form could very well have been revised from what Cerio had but Professor Cerio did tell me the original he was taught had sweeps, forearms and elbows that Villari deleted. Bill Chun did the elbows and forearms that day I noticed and I remembered what the Professor had said. Also the horse stance with the double punches and poison hand strikes sequence, Cerio stated to me that Villari added that. Who knows?? lol. "Joe"
I don't think Cerio was taught the whole form. The form was demonstrated, probably still in its embryonic stage and completed later as well (don't you think it is possible
Yes, Bro, I agree! I feel the form could very well have been revised from what Cerio had but Professor Cerio did tell me the original he was taught had sweeps, forearms and elbows that Villari deleted. Bill Chun did the elbows and forearms that day I noticed and I remembered what the Professor had said. Also the horse stance with the double punches and poison hand strikes sequence, Cerio stated to me that Villari added that. Who knows?? lol. "Joe"
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Kempo Guy
Guest
I met Bill Chun Jr. at the gathering in Vegas a few years ago. I went there for the express purpose to meet him. We (my teacher and I) have also had other communications (primarily by email) with him and a couple of his students prior to this.
Regarding forms taught by Prof. Chow, I was told there were a total of four forms he taught at the time of his death.
The last form he "created" seems to be "Kwai Sun" (and is performed radically different from Sam Kuoha's version).
Mr. Chun confirmed the existance of this form as well as he apparently saw this form performed for the first time in 1987 (only a few months prior to professor's death). I am unsure of what the other forms were called (I have only seen Kwai Sun and the second form), but I have a sneaky suspicion that Hansuki was one of them. I am hoping to meet with Mr. Chun again sometime in the future to see if he recognizes the second form (unfortunately we were never shown or taught the third and fourth form).
I do know that in addition to Hansuki and Kwai Sun, Prof. Chow taught two other "forms" called the free motion 25 and 45 man attack.
KG
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CoolKempoDude
Guest
it is getting fascinating every day. If you have anything NEW, please let us know.
I never meet Mr Chun BUT i'll love to see him in the future. Who knows ??? I meet you at Gathering of Eagles. Cool
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Karazenpo
Guest
Hey Peter, I didn't read your post on the definition until now. You know how it is, sometimes when we post around the same time this happens and we miss each other's post. I would have to say then your interpretation of what Master Chun said would give Hansuki that 'possible' meaning. I too, if you read my later post found 'opening' (Suki) in the translation and Hon to mean four. I know about what you mean about Mr. Villari but I will say this about Sho Tung Kwok. When we went over that form in Dedham, he stated it was the first in the series of Chinese forms, Sho, I would say meaning one or first, Tung or Tun, could that be equivilent to Tae (foot or feet) and Kwok, hands? So you have hands and feet as one? or hands and feet in harmony? Hey, You know as yourself , I have my differences of opinions with Mr. Villari but I can't let that influence everything he does or did, he may and I say 'may' be right on that. I was once told and I honestly don't remember who, isn't it strange of Hansuki being a Japanese name for a Chinese style form allegedly created by a Chinese Hawaiian? But then I thought, isn't Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo Karate a Japanese name for Chinese influenced style? So, it no longer sounded that strange to me, lol. Respectfully, Brother Joe
[QUO [/B][/QUOTE]
From what language are you translating "Hon". Chinese or Japanese? In Japanese "Yon" means "four" not "Hon".
Salute,
Hey Bro,
From what language are you translating "Hon". Chinese or Japanese? In Japanese "Yon" means "four" not "Hon".
Sho or So in Chinese mean "hand" . There is a pronounciation of the word "and" that vaguely resembles "Tun". But "kwok" does not mean "feet" nor "harmony"!In any dialect.
Salute,
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CoolKempoDude
Guest
kenmpoka,
which version of Hansuki do you teach???
Mr Villari's version ????
which version of Hansuki do you teach???
Mr Villari's version ????
