Kara-Ho Kenpo?

[Karazenpo]

Sho or So in Chinese mean "hand" . There is a pronounciation of the word "and" that vaguely resembles "Tun". But "kwok" does not mean "feet" nor "harmony"!In any dialect.

No argument there, Peter but what I was doing was seeing if by any creative means that someone made the English term fit the name of the form. Sho as in shodan could also mean one or first. Now, take Tae Kwon Do, there has been many variations of martial arts terminology over the years, some correct from different dialects but others just mistakes that took life and became accepted. Kenpo & Kempo, Pinan, pinian, pinion, etc. Kwon and kwok could be just one of those examples. I admit, 'tun' or 'tung' I was reaching for but I know there are many dialects and variations as stated above, and as far as this form goes it has been spelled several different ways over several decades so who knows? Look at the different spellings of 'Nenglis'! Hands & Feet in Harmony or Hands & Feet as One. I was being a bit 'abstract' as in the Chinese arts in attempting to make the connection. As far as 'hon' goes, as I stated in my previous post, I found that along with 'suki' in the glossary of terminology in the 1973 reprint of Robert Trias's book, 'The Hand is my Sword'. If I recall, I'd have to check, 'hon' was with another word, for ex., let's say it was the Japanese word for 'finger', and it was describing a 'four finger strike'. It went something like that but you get my drift anyway. 'Suki', I recall, in the same glossary translated to 'opening'. Keep in mind, these names were created very early on in the arts by Mr. Villari and others. At that time, martial artists were very inexperienced with the oriental languages and many mistakes were made in attempting to utilize them. Some used titles, that they found out later were not at all what they thought they mean't. Some were really quite amusing!, lol. I heard once that some guy was going around with a title that actually mean't something like 'sh.t head', lol. Respectfully, Brother Joe

 

[kenmpoka]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Sho as in shodan could also mean one or first.

Hey Joe,
"Shodan", "first level" is in Japanese. On the other hand "sho tun Kwok" is supposed to be Chinese. No relations there betwwen "sho" "first" in Japanese and "So" or "sho", "hand" in Chinese.

If I recall, I'd have to check, 'hon' was with another word, for ex., let's say it was the Japanese word for 'finger', and it was describing a 'four finger strike'

In japanese "four finger spearhand or swordhand" is "yohon or yonhon nukite"."two finger poke" is "nihon nukite" . "hon" by itself does not mean "four".

Keep in mind, these names were created very early on in the arts by Mr. Villari and others. At that time, martial artists were very inexperienced with the oriental languages and many mistakes were made in attempting to utilize them

Then they should have stuck with what they knew and not make a mockery of the system. They could have easily used Kata 7, 8, and so on...
How would a student feel announcing his form in front of a few Chinese masters...My name is.... and my form is
"sho tung Kwok". Whaaaaat?

I am not trying to be stubborn, just trying to bring out the facts. Perfect example of inexperienced martial artists becoming "founders" and "sokes" and "Grandmasters"...

Salute,

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
kenmpoka,

which version of Hansuki do you teach???

Mr Villari's version ????

Yes, Mr. Villari's version.

 

[Karazenpo]

Yes, but Peter, Sho being Japanese and Tun Kwok supposedly Chinese is my point of mistakes made in those early years due to inexperience in this field. Someone else said about Hansuki, "Why did a Chinese-Hawaiian give a Japanese name to a Chinese form?" but I say look at the system it came from: Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo. That's a Japanese name if I ever heard one, lol! How many books have been published that use the term Chinese Karate, Ed Parker is one name that comes to mind on that one! If you wish to get technical what's 'Shaolin' Kempo Karate, using that measuring stick as Sho Tung Kwok it should be referred to as 'Shorinji' Kempo Karate, true?
Peter, I definitely have 'hon' as four in the book The Hand is My Sword to the best of my memory. What I will do is check out the book this weekend (it's in my Blackstone school) and will post exactly what it says. Brother Peter, you're fun when you're stubborn!!!!!!!!!!!, LOL. Take care, "Joe"

I totally agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!on your quote below:

"I am not trying to be stubborn, just trying to bring out the facts. Perfect example of inexperienced martial artists becoming "founders" and "sokes" and "Grandmasters"...

 

[Karazenpo]

Oh, and one more thing Peter-Excellent discussion!

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo is a Japanese name if I ever heard one

why do you think it is a japanese name ?????

 

[Karazenpo]

Hi CoolKempo, It is Japanese. Goshinjitsu or Goshinjutsu means protection of the body or self or in other words "self defense" in Japanese. Kai is school, association, etc. Kempo (Fist law) of course is the Japanese translation of Chuan Fa (Fist way). Have a nice weekend, I'm outta here! "Joe'

 

[Matt]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
why do you think it is a japanese name ?????

Goshin= Japanese for Self Defense
Jitsu/Jutsu= Japanese for Techniques
Chinese=you can figure that one out
Kempo= Japanese for Chuan Fa (Fist Method)
Kai=Japanese for School (as in organization, not necessarily the building)

Matt

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
[/B]

Sho being Japanese and Tun Kwok supposedly Chinese is my point of mistakes made in those early years due to inexperience in this field

Then why keep on making that mistake, now that we know better! Why not just call it "hands and Feet in Harmony". Why call "pinan" "pinian or pinion" or any other wrong terms when we now know better!

Someone else said about Hansuki, "Why did a Chinese-Hawaiian give a Japanese name to a Chinese form?

I said it.

Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo. That's a Japanese name

Because Kenpo is influenced by the Japanese arts as well. Because it is in the lineage of Kosho-ryu/Kenpo jiujutsu.

I definitely have 'hon' as four in the book The Hand is My Sword to the best of my memory.

Then the book is wrong my friend. Please see the followings:
numbers and numerical sets:

ichi - ipponme - one- first
ni- nihonme - two - second
san - sanbonme - three - third
shi (yo,yon) - yonhonme - four - fourth
go - gohonme - five - fifth
roku - ropponme - six - sixth
shichi (nana) - nanahonme - seven - seventh
hachi - hachihonme(happonme) - eight - eigth
ku (koo) - kuhonme - nine - ninth
Joo (ju) - Juhonme - ten - tenth

Ippon kumite - 1 step sparring
sanbon kumite - 3 step sparring
gohon kumite - 5 step sparring

How many books have been published that use the term Chinese Karate, Ed Parker is one name that comes to mind on that one! If you wish to get technical what's 'Shaolin' Kempo Karate, using that measuring stick as Sho Tung Kwok it should be referred to as 'Shorinji' Kempo Karate, true?

not quite, Karate (tode), and chuan fa (quan fa, ken fat), all share the same exact kanji both in japanese and chinese, just different pronounciation.
"sho" in japanese and the character of "hand" in chinese don't.
Same goes for "Shaolin". Same character in both languages.
Chinese karate is the english way of writting and pronouncing the kanji. Karate can be said both in Japanese, and the chinese chuan fa. Besides, karate was known, but chuan fa not so common.
Shorin-ji in japanese means "shaolin temple" in chinese "shaolin tsu" all share the same kanji.

May be we should get back to Kara-ho Kenpo!

Salute my friend,

 

[Matt]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Karate (tode), and chuan fa (quan fa, ken fat), all share the same exact kanji both in japanese and chinese, just different pronounciation.

May be we should get back to Kara-ho Kenpo!

I agree with most of your post, but:

The kanji for karate is not the same as for kempo/chuan fa. If it was, we'd never get books like "Karate Kenpo" by Mizhuo Mutsu. How would we know?

Karate (old characters) / toide = kara + te (hand) = same characters (chinese/tang hand)

Karate (as in new style) =empty hand.
They used the Kara (empty) homonym to remove the evidence of chinese influence as part of the requirements to be admitted to the Butokukai.

Kempo= ken + ho = fist method (japanese)

Chuan Fa = fist method (or law)

Just a minor bit of anal-retentiveness on my part.

Matt

 

[Kempo Guy]

Karate (old characters) / toide = kara + te (hand) = same characters (chinese/tang hand)

FWIW,
To = T'ang (referencing the T'ang dynasty), but can be pronounced "Kara"

Also, Ken - po is as you suggest the characters, fist and method (or law). This of course all depends on the kanji as some sword styles also use the term kenpo, however in this instance using the kanji 'ken' meaning 'sword'.

May be we should get back to Kara-ho Kenpo!

Agreed. I have never seen the Honsuki form as taught by the Villari / Cerio lineages. What are the primary characteristics of the form? Just curious to see if it has kept some of the characteristics as displayed in Kara Ho.

KG

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Matt
Matt

The kanji for karate is not the same as for kempo/chuan fa. If it was, we'd never get books like "Karate Kenpo" by Mizhuo Mutsu. How would we know?

Yes I know that, that is why I wrote: Karate (tode), "to" for "tang", the way Okinawan pronounced "tang".
For Japanese karate the character "kara" is "empty".

Also as mentioned the sword charater "ken" is different that "fist".

Goshin: Go (strong, hard), Shin (mind, heart, serious, real ), the latter depending on the kanji used. Hense "Goshin" to take a strong stance, as in self defense."jutsu", "techniques" (just answering a previous post).

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy


KG [/B]

I have never seen the Honsuki form as taught by the Villari / Cerio lineages. What are the primary characteristics of the form? Just curious to see if it has kept some of the characteristics as displayed in Kara Ho.

The form is essentially the same with some parts missing and altered in Villari's version and breathing exercises added to Villari's.

Salute,

 

[marshallbd]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Tonight I just noticed in the newest issue of Martial Art that there's a big write up on Kara-ho Kenpo. Just thought I would throw this out.:asian:

Where can I buy a copy of this magazine? I have never seen it and would like an alternative read to BlackBelt...

Speaking of Magazines.....is there or has there ever been a magazine specific to Kenpo like the one for TKD?

 

[Seig]

Marshall,
Check into the Martial Talk magazine as well.

 

[Karazenpo]

quote: Sho being Japanese and Tun Kwok supposedly Chinese is my point of mistakes made in those early years due to inexperience in this field
Then why keep on making that mistake, now that we know better! Why not just call it "hands and Feet in Harmony". Why call "pinan" "pinian or pinion" or any other wrong terms when we now know better!

Peter, because when something has been perpetuated for so long it becomes traditon, like the mispelling by Mitose of Kenpo, it is now commonly accepted. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that saying, "If a lie is told enough of times, it becomes the truth." I don't mean that at all but does it really matter if a system as Shaolin Kempo wishes to call their forms pinan. As a matter of fact, Gm. Pesare went back to the original names of the Karazenpo forms and has changed them from katas to pinans to better observe tradition. So what, does it really hurt anyone or matter? Can't it be accepted just as historians now accept the two spellings of kempo/kenpo. Here's my spin on it. Whether you call the first form in Karazenpo, kata, pinan, set or form, once mastered, that punch, kick or palm heel can take your head off, lol, and that's good enough for me.

Yes, Peter, I did know the literal translation for Goshinjitsu/jutsu but then I found it wasn't used in the literal sense but as a Japanese term for self defense. I now remember,lol, it was you that told me about a Chinese/Hawaiian giving a Japanese name to a Chinese form in a phone conversation with you,lol.

I enjoy researching the history and so forth and finding true and accurate answers but like I said, Mr. Villari created the form, we wouldn't be talking about it or practicing it if he hadn't, so if the creator wants to call it Sho Tung Kwok than that is his perrogative and who are we to change the name? Who may better name the form than its creator? It's not our form. It's his baby! I may not agree with him on other issues, as yourself, but I can't see how we can take that away from him. No what I mean? Also I'm curious now to look that up in Trais's book. When I do I'll post what it says. Peter, can you e-mail me your phone number again, I have it somewhere but it'll save me the trouble of trying to find it. Thanks. Respectfully, Joe

PS: I still say Shaolin Kempo Karate is the same thing, Shaolin-a Chinese term describing-Kempo Karate, a Japanese art, so there!!!!!!!!!!!!l LOL.

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Karazenpo

Peter, because when something has been perpetuated for so long it becomes traditon, like the mispelling by Mitose of Kenpo, it is now commonly accepted

Excuse my french bro, then screw that false tradition! It is our job as senior instructors(!) to correct the mistakes that our predecessors made and bring back credibility to our system so it is respected by all and not just by bunch of illiterates.

Yes, Peter, I did know the literal translation for Goshinjitsu/jutsu but then I found it wasn't used in the literal sense but as a Japanese term for self defense.

I was just answering someone elses post.

As a matter of fact, Gm. Pesare went back to the original names of the Karazenpo forms and has changed them from katas to pinans to better observe tradition. So what, does it really hurt anyone or matter?

In my opinion utterly wrong. The Pinan forms already exists in certain enbusen (pattern). If it was otherwise it would not be any problem. It takes away credibility from our system. Why not be creative and use a good name. The usage of the name "pinan" for SKK's Pinan 1, 2 is WRONG. For 3, 4, 5 is correct. Kajus' were wrong as well and that is why they were changed. Incidentally the new name makes much more sense "palama sets". KEMPO / KENPO, the usage of both these spellings are correct and accepted in Japanese language regardless of what Mr. Mitose did.

I still say Shaolin Kempo Karate is the same thing, Shaolin-a Chinese term describing-Kempo Karate, a Japanese art, so there

The name "Shaolin Kempo Karate" was chosen for two reasons:

1) "Shaolin" is referring to the Shaolin Temple were it all started! We also use this term in english as oppose to "shorin-ji" or "shorin".
2) "Shaolin" is also used because we teach the shaolin inspired five animal forms and techniques.

KEMPO KARATE is our lineage to GMs.Mitose, Chow, and Emperado.

Mr. Villari created the form, we wouldn't be talking about it or practicing it if he hadn't, so if the creator wants to call it Sho Tung Kwok than that is his perrogative and who are we to change the name?

We are couple of educated martial artists that know a lot more than Mr. V when he started. We don't need to make or follow the old mistakes! He can call his creation by any name, but he may not pass it as CHINESE. JIBRISH ok.

Check your e-mail for my #.

Salute,

P.S. Trias' book specially the first printing was full of mistakes and exaggerations. Please do a search on this forum for further info.

 

[Karazenpo]

Peter, yes Bro, I do know that #1 & #2 pinans were derived from the first three Taikyoku forms, as a matter of fact it was you a few years ago who enlightened me on #2 Pinan! I had known #1 was taken from Oyama's system from his training in Shotokan but I didn't know that #2 was a 'hybrid' of that series. Here's a question, though, how about #4 Kata in SKK, that is actually a modified version of Okinawan Pinan #1/Shotokan Heian#2! My book is not from the first printing of The Hnad is My Sword. I think the first printing was in 1957 (?), my copy is from the revised 1973 printing. I'm leaving right now to check it out. Also, no, I didn't get your e-mail. Let me check for blocked numbers, maybe at one time when I was deleting my old inbox messages I accidentally hit block, it's right next to the delete on hotmail. I don't have time to go through it now, I have to meet someone at the school but I'll check it later today. Again, as always Bro, great discussion. By the way, I do see your points but sometimes I also like to play the devil's advocate, it leads to a more thorough discussion, lol. Take care, Brother Joe

 

[Kempo Guy]

Karazenpo,

I do know that #1 & #2 pinans were derived from the first three Taikyoku forms

Uhhh, are the pinan forms of SKK different than the Okinawan or Japanese versions? I ask because the Taikyoku kata (as taught in Shotokan derived arts) are 'basic' kata pulled out of the pinan forms.

It sounds to me that the Pinan's as taught within your system does not follow the same pattern as the pinan/heian forms in Okinawa/Japan (or am I just confused)? BTW, there are five pinan kata in Okinawan Karate (generally in the Shorin ryu traditions)...

KG

 

[Karazenpo]

Kempo Guy & Peter,

First , Brother Peter, I just checked out The Hand is My Sword. It is the 1973 revised printing. In the glossary under 'H' it has the term 'hon ken' , next to it is the definition: 'four wrist-fist'. That's all I can tell you about that Peter, but that's where i got it. "Suki", I thought I read it in the same book but I was mistaken. It was another book I have but the name eludes me right now, the definition was, however, 'opening'.

Kempo Guy, I will trace back the lineage for you in Shaolin Kempo to explain the origins of the pinans used, this will clear up any confusion. Okay, Gm. S. George Pesare learned from Sijo Victor 'Sonny' Gascon. Sijo Gascon learned from Sifu John Leoning who was of Sijo Adriano Emperado's Kajukenbo system. Gm. Pesare taught Professor Nick Cerio and in turn Professor Cerio taught Gm. Fred Villari. In the mid 60's when Professor Cerio was still training at Gm. Pesare's school, Gm. Pesare decided to add Taikyoku shodan which was adopted from the system of Mas Oyama. (Oyama was a Korean who studied Shotokan, Goju ryu, Chinese Kempo-the actual kung fu version and judo). This was done to add a form for beginners that would have been easier to learn than Karazenpo's first form which you know as #1 kata. For a reason I do not as of yet know this form was named #1 Pinan, possibly because the Kajukenbo forms at the time were called pinans. That would be my educated guess. Later, after Professor Cerio branched out on his own he used the Taikyoku series of shodan, nidan and sandan from Oyama's system (these were beginner forms of Shotokan origin, called the 'first cause forms' or the student's 'first look' at Shotokan.) and created what he called #2 Pinan, a 'hybrid' which is the seond form in SKK. Professor Cerio than adopted Oyama's versions of #3, #4 & #5 to complete the 5 pinan series. As Brother Peter stated, 3-5 were accurate names for these katas. #'s 3, 4 & 5 go back to the orignal 5 pinan series of Okinawan karate. In Shotokan they are called the Heian series. An interesting note I mentioned in a previous post is that Cerio at the time could not teach the exact pinan series anyway, even if he wanted to, as at the time he was teaching Karazenpo and it would conflict with Karazenpo's original kata series. The reason, Karazenpo's fourth form which is #4 Kata of SKK is actually a modified version of Okinawan Pinan #1. When Master Funakoshi introduced karate to Japan he called this series 'Heian' which I believe stood for 'peaceful shrine' and pinan meaning 'peaceful mind', a form of moving meditation. He then reversed the sequence of numbers one and two because he felt Okinawan Pinan #1 was too difficult to be given first in that series. Perhaps Brother Peter, who is also very knowledgable on this can add something here that I may have missed. I believe Peter and I are on the same page on this part of kempo history.
Respectfully submitted.