Jutsu versus Do Redux

[screamingskull]

I guess when Bill Clinton said “It depends on what the definition of is, is” he was talking about this thread.

Who knew?

i thought political issues are not allowed on this forum?

 

[Oily Dragon]

The correct answer is, of course, always 袈裟固.

Then nobody will care if you do or jutsu.

@Chris Parker, don't be mad, come back. I was just playing around. 8 pages, dude, couldn't resist.

 

[geezer]

i thought political issues are not allowed on this forum?

Clinton left office almost 24 years ago. I believe that after so many years, this particular reference has moved beyond politics and become part of our shared culture by now. Pretty harmless.

But I get it. As your comment suggests, you can't be too careful these days. I mean, just look at Oily and Chris going at it. Sheesh!

One thing I learned many years ago. Don't argue with Chris!!! (or Tez either) ...and so far, I've managed to follow that advice.

 

[screamingskull]

Clinton left office almost 24 years ago. I believe that after so many years, this particular reference has moved beyond politics and become part of our shared culture by now. Pretty harmless.

But I get it. As your comment suggests, you can't be too careful these days. I mean, just look at Oily and Chris going at it. Sheesh!

One thing I learned many years ago. Don't argue with Chris!!! (or Tez either) ...and so far, I've managed to follow that advice.

yeah ok but rules are here for everyone.

 

[mograph]

It's called a "gish gallop"when you log in once in a blue moon, blockquote someone to death, and leave.

Gish galloping is a verbal technique, where a high volume of statements are delivered too quickly for an opponent to respond. It's not just about volume, and has nothing to do with a frequency of past postings.

One does not "gish gallop" in writing, where an opponent can take as much time as he wants to respond and/or refute.

I guess when Bill Clinton said “It depends on what the definition of is, is” he was talking about this thread.

Yep. A common premise (clarification of terms) is necessary for productive discussion.

 

[screamingskull]

Gish galloping is a verbal technique, where a high volume of statements are delivered too quickly for an opponent to respond. It's not just about volume, and has nothing to do with a frequency of past postings.

One does not "gish gallop" in writing, where an opponent can take as much time as he wants to respond and/or refute.

are you an English teacher...

 

[Oily Dragon]

Gish galloping is a verbal technique, where a high volume of statements are delivered too quickly for an opponent to respond. It's not just about volume, and has nothing to do with a frequency of past postings.

One does not "gish gallop" in writing, where an opponent can take as much time as he wants to respond and/or refute..

Gishing isn't limited to in person, spoken discussions, especially since Gish himself was a prolific author, with a long history of writing dissents in the same, long, drawn out, annoying, tireless way he would "debate" live, using that term loosely.

It's hard to deal with in person, and Gish was famous for heated debates on university stages, but he was also a prolific writer and had the same style. He would take a few sentences of evolutionary theory and BOOM 30 bible passages and other loosey goosey logic to prove God made people. The solution was, not to take bait on any one of them, and to KISS and stick to the evidence.

So the literary gish gallop is a real thing. You see it all the time in persuasive essays and online debates Anyone can take a paragraph of text and produce a 10,000 word rebuttal. And since reading often takes more time and focus than listening, and therefore people will not bother finishing.

Can you take your time and rebut it all? Maybe, but not everyone wants to, or has the time, especially if the tone gets snarky. So, yeah, one can gosh gallop in an online discussion. Seen it here, Facebook. There are other martial arts websites I don't go to because of this online "browbeating".

LIke, there is never anything wrong with just saying "no", and if someone is curious, ask. I'll give you an example...

 

[Oily Dragon]

Gish galloping is a verbal technique,

No. Sometimes. *

* see previous post.

 

[screamingskull]

Gishing isn't limited to in person discussions, especially since Gish himself was a prolific author.

It's hard to deal with in person, and Gish was famous for heated debates on university stages, but he was also a prolific writer and had the same style. He would take a few sentences of evolutionary theory and BOOM 30 bible passages and other loosey goosey logic to prove God made people.

So the literary gish gallop is a real thing. You see it all the time in persuasive essays and online debates Anyone can take a paragraph of text and produce a 10,000 word rebuttal. And since reading often takes more time and focus than listening, and therefore people will not bother finishing.

Can you take your time and rebut it all? Maybe, but not everyone wants to, especially if the tone gets snarky.

LIke, there is never anything wrong with just saying "no", and if someone is curious, ask. I'll give you an example...

what´s all this got to do with martial arts?

 

[Oily Dragon]

are you an English teacher...

what´s all this got to do with martial arts?

Easy, martial artists online often gish gallop to refute someone else. It can be totally innocent (if verbose), passive aggressive, or overtly aggressive. Some of the older threads here are packed with these (no style bashing...)

The faster they type, the more output they can produce. The more into the subject they are, the more volume and depth. Hence Gish's (often successful) technique of burying evolution scientists with Bible verses, and persuading people while the academics were paralyzed trying to refute every point.

But it's not the most effective way of encouraging chat or debate, because some people have more limited time than others, and aren't going to bother responding to a post that can be seen from space, written in response to their personal thoughts on a given day.

Brass tacks, Dude #1 posts his ideas on do vs. jutsu. That fires up dude #2, who is this guy.

Now please, I am not saying this guy is Chris, but it took me reading one of his posts last year (reading the post itself only took about a month). I think it's common to people who are passionate about a subject, gifted writers, but who may not realize that making a 50 point response to a couple of paragraphs is not the best way to get a back and forth going.

 

[screamingskull]

Easy, martial artists online often gish gallop to refute someone else. It can be totally innocent (if verbose), passive aggressive, or overtly aggressive. Some of the older threads here are packed with these (no style bashing...)

The faster they type, the more output they can produce. The more into the subject they are, the more volume and depth. Hence Gish's (often successful) technique of burying evolution scientists with Bible verses, and persuading people while the academics were paralyzed trying to refute every point.

But it's not the most effective way of encouraging chat or debate, because some people have more limited time than others, and aren't going to bother responding to a post that can be seen from space, written in response to their personal thoughts on a given day.

Brass tacks, Dude #1 posts his ideas on do vs. jutsu. That fires up dude #2, who is this guy.

View attachment 30337

Now please, I am not saying this guy is Chris, but it took me reading one of his posts last year (reading the post itself only took about a month). I think it's common to people who are passionate about a subject, gifted writers, but who may not realize that making a 50 point response to a couple of paragraphs is not the best way to get a back and forth going.

please stop this rubbish & post about training & martial arts.

 

[Oily Dragon]

please stop this rubbish & post about training & martial arts.

But when asked what styles you train, you made one up.

What sort of background into do or ju do you have? Mine is Judo, BJJ, kung fu, and wrestling.

Like, which of Bill or Chris's points do you agree/disagree with.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

But when asked what styles you train, you made one up.

What sort of background into do or ju do you have? Mine is Judo, BJJ, kung fu, and wrestling.

Like, which of Bill or Chris's points do you agree/disagree with.

I thought 'Gish' referred to Lilian. So what do I know?

 

[Gyakuto]

Easy, martial artists online often gish gallop to refute someone else. It can be totally innocent (if verbose), passive aggressive, or overtly aggressive. Some of the older threads here are packed with these (no style bashing...)

The faster they type, the more output they can produce. The more into the subject they are, the more volume and depth. Hence Gish's (often successful) technique of burying evolution scientists with Bible verses, and persuading people while the academics were paralyzed trying to refute every point.

But it's not the most effective way of encouraging chat or debate, because some people have more limited time than others, and aren't going to bother responding to a post that can be seen from space, written in response to their personal thoughts on a given day.

Brass tacks, Dude #1 posts his ideas on do vs. jutsu. That fires up dude #2, who is this guy.

View attachment 30337

Now please, I am not saying this guy is Chris, but it took me reading one of his posts last year (reading the post itself only took about a month). I think it's common to people who are passionate about a subject, gifted writers, but who may not realize that making a 50 point response to a couple of paragraphs is not the best way to get a back and forth going.

 

[geezer]

I thought 'Gish' referred to Lilian. So what do I know?

Yeah. Lilian Gish. Last movie I saw her in was "The Whales of August" (1987). A good movie that caught my attention not just because of the cast and quality of the script but also because we had vacationed on Cliff Island when I was a child in the 60's and I I saw my first whale there!

Anyway, I found this tangent about "Gish Galloping" educational. I did not know the term (apparently it was coined in 1994 long after I finished my schooling). I guess I don't read enough these days! Anyway, I do think it's something you encounter a lot on martial art's forums and I thank Oily for educating me on the matter.

Finally, if Screaming Skull doesn't care for the discussion, that's fine too. He can scroll right on by. Maybe change his moniker to Scrolling Skull. Sure beats Whining Skull.

BTW anybody else ever see the original 50's movie? Scared the dickens out of me when I was about 5. After reading this I watched some of it again. It's free on Youtube. When it wasn't boring, it was hilarious. Funny what scares you when you are a kid!

 

[Hot Lunch]

i thought political issues are not allowed on this forum?

There are certain things that some people can get away with that others can't. And I'm not talking about Buka. Chris Parker did the same gish gallop on me on a ninjutsu thread, and I let it go. I'm sure he literally wastes a whole day every time he does that, and I'm not going to join him.

The frustrating part to me is not what he says or does (I've been on the internet for 25 years now; guys like him aren't new), but the fact that he and his condescending talk has the backing and support of many of the people here on the forum, including admins - who'll bless his comments with likes and agrees. These same admins have sent me inbox warnings for lesser things.

Kind of reminds me of how in high school, only the popular kids were allowed to bully others. If any of the victims of the bullying attempted to keep the shizzle rolling downhill to someone of lower status than themselves, they'd get checked immediately.

He's protected here.

 

[Gyakuto]

The frustrating part to me is not what he says or does (I've been on the internet for 25 years now; guys like him aren't new), but the fact that he and his condescending talk has the backing and support of many of the people here on the forum, including admins - who'll bless his comments with likes and agrees. These same admins have sent me inbox warnings for lesser things.

He gets away with it because he’s pretty!

There is an ‘ignore button’, one I use judiciously and I’d suggest you use it for irksome posters!

 

[Hot Lunch]

He gets away with it because he’s pretty!

There is an ‘ignore button’, one I use judiciously and I’d suggest you use it for irksome posters!

"Ignore" only means that I can't see their replies. But they can still see mine and reply to them. I'd use it if worked both ways. Also, in either case, using it doesn't solve the main problem of certain people getting away with things that others can't.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Chris Parker did the same gish gallop on me on a ninjutsu thread, and I let it go.

If you don't know much about Ninjutsu, you chose wisely.

If you do, you chose wisely.

I'm sure he literally wastes a whole day every time he does that, and I'm not going to join him.

I think it only took him 20 minutes. I can't imagine Chris writing for a full day. I love to read his posts but I have limits. Eyes not so good.

The frustrating part

It's important not to let things frustrate you on the Internet.

I had to fix a Cuban link neck chain last night. That, my friend, is frustrating.

 

[Hot Lunch]

If you don't know much about Ninjutsu, you chose wisely.

If you do, you chose wisely.


I think it only took him 20 minutes. I can't imagine Chris writing for a full day. I love to read his posts but I have limits. Eyes not so good.

It's important not to let things frustrate you on the Internet.

I had to fix a Cuban link neck chain last night. That, my friend, is frustrating.

Irony: I'm here backing YOU up. What, you weren't frustrated by him all of a sudden?