Karate vs karate-do

[Mitlov]

I agree with the variety comment but why can't there be both in the same training setting? It is true that it would be a taller order for the instructor(s). I certainly feel using a styles native language makes sense if a school/instructor uses the "traditional" moniker.

As to your question, there does seem to be less usage of Korean terminology in the TKD circles I run in. Ironically, in sport TKD all commands and judges calls are made in Korean.

Occam's Razor might suggest that Korean is a lot harder to pronounce than Japanese if you don't actually know either language

 

[dvcochran]

Occam's Razor might suggest that Korean is a lot harder to pronounce than Japanese if you don't actually know either language

I jokingly say people speaking Korean often sound like they are trying to hock a loogie.

 

[CB Jones]

I jokingly say people speaking Korean often sound like they are trying to hock a loogie.

I work with a couple of former Air Force linguists and they day Korean is easily one of the toughest to learn. To get into the korean language program it takes the highest score on the test.

 

[_Simon_]

We've likely heard of "gym" and "dojo" being used interchangeably. After all, they are places where one goes to work out and exercise. But looking at the meaning of these words, a glaring difference appears. Gym means naked; gymnasium, "a place to work out naked." (Glad I wasn't a wrestler back in B.C.) On the other hand, dojo means a "a place of the Way." Do=Way/path; Jo=Place.

There are many Ways in Japan: Chado, Kyudo, Iaido, Aikido, Judo, etc. But it seems that only Karate-do has branched into two entities: What for this discussion, I will term Karate - undertaken as a competitive sport, exercise, or pure self-defense; and Karate-do - undertaken to follow a life-path. The former places little stress on kata and philosophy, stressing the result, while the latter, in my opinion, takes a broader view, stressing the journey and life's lessons and self-introspection via the vehicle of physicality. One can take either as they see fit, but should be aware of the difference. Of course, each has a bit of the other contained within.

The recent thread on "Kata is Karate" showed varied views on the subject and led me to start off in a little different direction. If karate is viewed as a purely pragmatic physical activity, is the dojo nothing more than a gym? Or does the concept of "dojo" lend itself to something more - Karate-do?

Have enjoyed this thread thus far

I'm a karate-do sorta guy, and to me the "dojo" was always symbolic, but represented an inner state more than anything, the building just being a reflection or reminder of that.

Whenever you enter the dojo and leave your shoes at the door, you're leaving behind the world, your past, everything you thought you knew, and are entering a sanctuary to find yourself so to speak. To deepen your practice, self-enquiry, honesty and practicing in order to glimpse something more real. Like willingly engaging in a process of discovery through a "way" (whether that be karate-do, sado etc). I mean some can say it can be through any vehicle, but some probably feel more conducive to it through its intention and its environment.

Can sound a bit vague haha, but I hope you get what I mean .

To me there's a big difference between gym and dojo. I'm sure some use them interchangeably and all good, doesn't matter, I guess it's more how you regard it personally and why you train. The meaning and value you follow in your practice, nothing wrong with any approach, just a different focus.

And that's not to say some can't have both/multiple practices or methods (sport, exercise, spirituality etc), just some environments and practices tend to lend themselves to different emphases.

So to address the original questions:

"If karate is viewed as a purely pragmatic physical activity, is the dojo nothing more than a gym?"

If it is viewed as a purely pragmatic physical activity, then that's all it WILL be for that particular person. To me karate-do was always something more (what drew me to it), and the dojo symbolically represented a place you enter physically to consciously enter yourself.

"Or does the concept of "dojo" lend itself to something more - Karate-do?"

I think it can, and does

 

[dvcochran]

Have enjoyed this thread thus far

I'm a karate-do sorta guy, and to me the "dojo" was always symbolic, but represented an inner state more than anything, the building just being a reflection or reminder of that.

Whenever you enter the dojo and leave your shoes at the door, you're leaving behind the world, your past, everything you thought you knew, and are entering a sanctuary to find yourself so to speak. To deepen your practice, self-enquiry, honesty and practicing in order to glimpse something more real. Like willingly engaging in a process of discovery through a "way" (whether that be karate-do, sado etc). I mean some can say it can be through any vehicle, but some probably feel more conducive to it through its intention and its environment.

Can sound a bit vague haha, but I hope you get what I mean .

To me there's a big difference between gym and dojo. I'm sure some use them interchangeably and all good, doesn't matter, I guess it's more how you regard it personally and why you train. The meaning and value you follow in your practice, nothing wrong with any approach, just a different focus.

And that's not to say some can't have both/multiple practices or methods (sport, exercise, spirituality etc), just some environments and practices tend to lend themselves to different emphases.

So to address the original questions:

"If karate is viewed as a purely pragmatic physical activity, is the dojo nothing more than a gym?"

If it is viewed as a purely pragmatic physical activity, then that's all it WILL be for that particular person. To me karate-do was always something more (what drew me to it), and the dojo symbolically represented a place you enter physically to consciously enter yourself.

"Or does the concept of "dojo" lend itself to something more - Karate-do?"

I think it can, and does

A very, very good post. I sometimes forget this dimension within the walls of the dojo/dojang when I am not in one. That sanctuary effect is real and such a wonderful place to be.
We have a heavy sport element in the same physical building at times but strive to keep traditional notions intact. Things like decorum are always maintained. Sometimes I think regular classes are more "laid back" than they were 20 year ago but that may just be my perspective after many years of doing this.
The Do, for me, extends beyond the walls.

 

[Buka]

I am a big believer in the do of Karate-do.

On the subject of "dojo and gym"......it's obviously going to vary amongst everyone. To me, every dojo is a gym but not every gym is anywhere near being a dojo.

My guess is I probably teach a less traditional form of Karate than anyone here. Or anyone who's ever been here. And nowadays I only teach at other people's dojos. When I do, I teach in a manner that fits with that particular dojo.

But going back, when I ran a dojo for a long time, the training itself was anything but Traditional. But the dojo protocol I chose was as traditional as any I've seen. In most cases more so. Why, you might ask. Because I was teaching in the city to a student body of all kinds of people, but the largest group amongst them all was impressionable young men. Everyone knew the deal going in. You were training to become a lady or a gentleman of the Martial Arts. It was going to be the most difficult thing you've ever done on purpose, you were going to get in the greatest, healthiest shape of your life and you were going to learn to fight like a M'fkr. And it all came with a written, money back guarantee. And if you couldn't afford it, no problem, just come, we'll even give you a clean used gi to keep. Just keep it clean. If you let it get stinky you'ld get your butt kicked.

You were also going going to learn a lot of Martial history from a lot of styles, and be taught classes from visiting guests who ranged from world fighting champions to Traditional Karate instructors.

We had an open door policy, especially on Thursday nights, sparring night. People from all over would come down to fight. Free, no charge. Just obey the rules. No worry if you didn't know them, someone would explain them to you. We were friendly with a whole bunch of other schools, some traditional, some not. They all came down. It was probably the most fun I've ever had in a very full life.

Yeah, it was a gym. But it was also a very serious dojo with very serious protocols. If you didn't like it, leave. There was a list of dojos on the wall that I had a lot of respect for. I placed some of my students in some of them, they all thrived. And all the Instructors in those schools always told me I had the most respectful students they had ever seen.

As an instructor, that's all you can hope for. They all made me proud.

 

[dvcochran]

You know, your post got me thinking about one young man who worked out with us from a very young age who really ended up on the wrong path. He was raised by older Grandparents and was very impressionable. He lived with my family for about a year but mostly just crashed there. I just never could reach in deep enough to make a difference. Always wondered if someone else could have if he had lived long enough. He was in and out of trouble his whole life until he met an untimely end.
Damn, this make me sad thinking about it.

 

[lklawson]

You know, your post got me thinking about one young man who worked out with us from a very young age who really ended up on the wrong path. He was raised by older Grandparents and was very impressionable. He lived with my family for about a year but mostly just crashed there. I just never could reach in deep enough to make a difference. Always wondered if someone else could have if he had lived long enough. He was in and out of trouble his whole life until he met an untimely end.
Damn, this make me sad thinking about it.

You know what it takes to see friends die? To watch young people make horrible decisions? To see lives ruined? To see the best and the worst of humanity? All you have to do is just live long enough.

It's really nothing special, per se. You don't have to be a good person, a bad person, talented, privileged, or "in the right place." Just live.

The trick is not to get maudline about it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk