Just how dangerous is that bully?

[drewtoby]

A subject that came up between me and k-man was fighting relating to bullying. I know most bullies are insecure and easily intimidated, but that's not the case for some. And, when avoidance, deescalation, and other self defense tools fail, you are in a sticky situation.

My view is you never know what someone is capable of, especially someone that goes out looking for trouble. Some people don't need a motive! They just act to act. If he/she forces you into a fight, you don't know if it was premeditated the night before, if it was unmotivated and he/she was looking for an easy target, or if (s)he just has a bad temper and wants to get revenge. You don't know what is going through his/her mind, what is in his/her pockets, ect. If they don't back down, I would come to treat the situation as if my life were on the line, because imho, it probably is. If nothing is stopping him/her from fighting a reluctant opponent, what is stopping him/her from raping, kidnapping, and/or killing you?

I know that this is the extreme side of things, and only a minority of bullies are actually like this, but I think it's still worth discussing. I feel that we take bullies too lightly here sometimes. What are your thoughts?

 

[K-man]

Bullying is pretty specific as a type of asocial violence. In fact it is often the threat of violence rather than actual violence. It is also normally restricted in that the bully would almost always know his/her victim or at very least the group of people being intimidated. Raping, kidnapping and murder are totally unrelated to bullying.

Bullying is the use of force, threat, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or aggressively impose domination over others. The behavior is often repeated and habitual. One essential prerequisite is the perception, by the bully or by others, of an imbalance of social or physical power. Behaviors used to assert such domination can include verbal harassment or threat, physical assault or coercion, and such acts may be directed repeatedly towards particular targets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

I don't know where you got the impression that bullies are 'easily intimidated'. Bullies by the very definition are the ones doing the intimidating but they will usually leave alone those who are strong enough to stand up for themselves. Of course bullies exist in the home and workplace too but for this discussion I'm thinking more of the physical bullying. Is does exist in some workplaces, more likely to be the trade type businesses but the most common place would be the schools because of the age and size differences.

De-escalation would be pretty difficult in most situations too because normally you don't hold any aces. Possibly explaining that your SAS brother, on leave from Afghanistan, is picking you up from school in 30 minutes might be one option. Normally though you do what is demanded or you get thumped, not usually even severely beaten. Avoidance would always be the first option but not always possible.

QUOTE ... drewtoby
Some people don't need a motive! They just act to act. If he/she forces you into a fight, you don't know if it was premeditated the night before, if it was unmotivated and he/she was looking for an easy target, or if (s)he just has a bad temper and wants to get revenge. You don't know what is going through his/her mind, what is in his/her pockets, ect.

This is nothing to do with bullying. Bullying is not picking a fight. Bullies normally posture but the do not want to fight. They use the threat of fighting which is why bullying always has a weaker or perceived to be weaker victim.
Self Defence training includes teaching you how not to look like a victim. Revenge has nothing to do with bullying either.

QUOTE ... drewtoby
You don't know what is going through his/her mind, what is in his/her pockets, ect. If they don't back down, I would come to treat the situation as if my life were on the line, because imho, it probably is. If nothing is stopping him/her from fighting a reluctant opponent, what is stopping him/her from raping, kidnapping, and/or killing you?

Bullies don't normally use weapons either apart from maybe a stick. Anything else could see them charged with assault etc. You say, "if they don't back down, I would come to treat the situation as if my life were on the line, because imho, it probably is." To say your life is on the line because a bully threatened you and wouldn't back down, so you pulled a knife out of your pocket and stabbed him, is not likely to help you beat the manslaughter charges in court.

My thoughts ... Very little of what you have posted is actually bullying and what does relate to bullying is totally wrong.
:asian:

 

[DennisBreene]

Bullying is pretty specific as a type of asocial violence. In fact it is often the threat of violence rather than actual violence. It is also normally restricted in that the bully would almost always know his/her victim or at very least the group of people being intimidated. Raping, kidnapping and murder are totally unrelated to bullying.



I don't know where you got the impression that bullies are 'easily intimidated'. Bullies by the very definition are the ones doing the intimidating but they will usually leave alone those who are strong enough to stand up for themselves. Of course bullies exist in the home and workplace too but for this discussion I'm thinking more of the physical bullying. Is does exist in some workplaces, more likely to be the trade type businesses but the most common place would be the schools because of the age and size differences.

De-escalation would be pretty difficult in most situations too because normally you don't hold any aces. Possibly explaining that your SAS brother, on leave from Afghanistan, is picking you up from school in 30 minutes might be one option. Normally though you do what is demanded or you get thumped, not usually even severely beaten. Avoidance would always be the first option but not always possible.


This is nothing to do with bullying. Bullying is not picking a fight. Bullies normally posture but the do not want to fight. They use the threat of fighting which is why bullying always has a weaker or perceived to be weaker victim.
Self Defence training includes teaching you how not to look like a victim. Revenge has nothing to do with bullying either.


Bullies don't normally use weapons either apart from maybe a stick. Anything else could see them charged with assault etc. You say, "if they don't back down, I would come to treat the situation as if my life were on the line, because imho, it probably is." To say your life is on the line because a bully threatened you and wouldn't back down, so you pulled a knife out of your pocket and stabbed him, is not likely to help you beat the manslaughter charges in court.

My thoughts ... Very little of what you have posted is actually bullying and what does relate to bullying is totally wrong.
:asian:

I tend to agree with most of this. With one caveat. In my experience, in school, the neighborhood, even home; bullies are usually known. Most people can tell you who the bullies are. If, however, you face an unknown individual, who is posturing, intimidating etc., you don't know for sure that you are dealing with a garden variety bully. This unknown individual could be a sociopath, psychotic, delusional or simply a personality disorder. I would suggest that in such a circumstance, you can't be as certain that you've assessed the individual reliably. Extreme caution is appropriate because of the relative unpredictability. Don't shoot them out of hand, but don't assume that they are simply getting off on intimidation and unlikely to be extremely violent.

 

[K-man]

I tend to agree with most of this. With one caveat. In my experience, in school, the neighborhood, even home; bullies are usually known. Most people can tell you who the bullies are.

Of course, that is what bullying is all about.

If, however, you face an unknown individual, who is posturing, intimidating etc., you don't know for sure that you are dealing with a garden variety bully. This unknown individual could be a sociopath, psychotic, delusional or simply a personality disorder. I would suggest that in such a circumstance, you can't be as certain that you've assessed the individual reliably. Extreme caution is appropriate because of the relative unpredictability.

I would argue that this situation is not bullying but in fact just the same type of asocial violence you could normally find on the street. That would require action which may include using a weapon, if you could justify its use.

Don't shoot them out of hand, but don't assume that they are simply getting off on intimidation and unlikely to be extremely violent.

:asian:

 

[drewtoby]

I tend to agree with most of this. With one caveat. In my experience, in school, the neighborhood, even home; bullies are usually known. Most people can tell you who the bullies are. If, however, you face an unknown individual, who is posturing, intimidating etc., you don't know for sure that you are dealing with a garden variety bully. This unknown individual could be a sociopath, psychotic, delusional or simply a personality disorder. I would suggest that in such a circumstance, you can't be as certain that you've assessed the individual reliably. Extreme caution is appropriate because of the relative unpredictability. Don't shoot them out of hand, but don't assume that they are simply getting off on intimidation and unlikely to be extremely violent.

perhaps I should clarify. I'm talking about the extremely rare cases like this. I did not know you guys were also assuming that the bully knew you ect. there can be instances in a grocery line, for instance. that's when deesculation usually works. and if you know them, well you make the judgement. but there is always a slight chance off them being the aytypical bully.

as for everything else, I agree with what has been said. the garden variety bully is insecure though, so I believe they can be intimidated by an unexpected response ect. maybe discouraged is a better word though.

dang, looking back at my posts I really needed to add a disclaimer stating I'm talking about the extreme. I need to better clarify in the future. in the post above, staying prepared is what I was saying when I said to keep the blade accessible in such a rare situation, or one that can easily develop into such.

 

[drewtoby]

Bullying is pretty specific as a type of asocial violence. In fact it is often the threat of violence rather than actual violence. It is also normally restricted in that the bully would almost always know his/her victim or at very least the group of people being intimidated. Raping, kidnapping and murder are totally unrelated to bullying.



I don't know where you got the impression that bullies are 'easily intimidated'. Bullies by the very definition are the ones doing the intimidating but they will usually leave alone those who are strong enough to stand up for themselves. Of course bullies exist in the home and workplace too but for this discussion I'm thinking more of the physical bullying. Is does exist in some workplaces, more likely to be the trade type businesses but the most common place would be the schools because of the age and size differences.

De-escalation would be pretty difficult in most situations too because normally you don't hold any aces. Possibly explaining that your SAS brother, on leave from Afghanistan, is picking you up from school in 30 minutes might be one option. Normally though you do what is demanded or you get thumped, not usually even severely beaten. Avoidance would always be the first option but not always possible.


This is nothing to do with bullying. Bullying is not picking a fight. Bullies normally posture but the do not want to fight. They use the threat of fighting which is why bullying always has a weaker or perceived to be weaker victim.
Self Defence training includes teaching you how not to look like a victim. Revenge has nothing to do with bullying either.


Bullies don't normally use weapons either apart from maybe a stick. Anything else could see them charged with assault etc. You say, "if they don't back down, I would come to treat the situation as if my life were on the line, because imho, it probably is." To say your life is on the line because a bully threatened you and wouldn't back down, so you pulled a knife out of your pocket and stabbed him, is not likely to help you beat the manslaughter charges in court.

My thoughts ... Very little of what you have posted is actually bullying and what does relate to bullying is totally wrong.
:asian:

just to clarify once more my life is on the line when he physically attacks me and refuses to stop. if its just threats, you keep your head up and stay aware. just don't turn your back, unless if you feel its safe to do so. in my case I did not feel it was. in most cases I would walk off sideways, keeping him in view for a good while.

 

[granfire]

What has changed in regards of bullies over the years.
I am sure they have always been around, just as there have always been people around with problems asserting themselves.

A bully is a bully, because he can.
If popular stereotype is correct, they attract followers, strength by numbers. (Which also turns them into a pack, which has generally different dynamics even if non of the members would ever act this way when alone)

Violence is certainly part of the problem. Not just the implied violence, but the real deal, even if it's 'just' a wedgy or a swirly, or getting tossed into a dumpster.

I think whether or not you stand up to one depends on so many things.
I had one kid back in middle school, trying to be a jerk. I got into a fight with him, case closed. No blood flowed, no teachers were called, no one tattled. These days half the class would ahve called, texted, filmed the incident, before school was out I'd be on youtube and the principal's office, or rather suspended/expelled.

We have created an environment nurturing bullies, I think.
Did we have that many back then, do we have this many now?
I don't know, but current school rules do not curb the problem, IMHO, as the bullied person gets equally punished for defending himself.

You can never be sure if the person you are confronting does not snap. Also, I wonder. Have we watched too many bad TV dramas that we assume that every person snaps all the time, or that this is even an acceptable response to stress?


As far as escalation goes....if no fists are flying, no weapons are drawn, there is still a chance to back down.
Once the fight is on, I suppose you better commit yourself to doing what it takes to get home in as few pieces as possible, one being the preferred number. And do so in a hurry.
I only had to punch the guy in the arm a couple of times. But that was over 30 years an a million crimes chows ago....I think these days a punch to more vital areas could be necessary.

 

[drewtoby]

What has changed in regards of bullies over the years.
I am sure they have always been around, just as there have always been people around with problems asserting themselves.

A bully is a bully, because he can.
If popular stereotype is correct, they attract followers, strength by numbers. (Which also turns them into a pack, which has generally different dynamics even if non of the members would ever act this way when alone)

Violence is certainly part of the problem. Not just the implied violence, but the real deal, even if it's 'just' a wedgy or a swirly, or getting tossed into a dumpster.

I think whether or not you stand up to one depends on so many things.
I had one kid back in middle school, trying to be a jerk. I got into a fight with him, case closed. No blood flowed, no teachers were called, no one tattled. These days half the class would ahve called, texted, filmed the incident, before school was out I'd be on youtube and the principal's office, or rather suspended/expelled.

We have created an environment nurturing bullies, I think.
Did we have that many back then, do we have this many now?
I don't know, but current school rules do not curb the problem, IMHO, as the bullied person gets equally punished for defending himself.

You can never be sure if the person you are confronting does not snap. Also, I wonder. Have we watched too many bad TV dramas that we assume that every person snaps all the time, or that this is even an acceptable response to stress?


As far as escalation goes....if no fists are flying, no weapons are drawn, there is still a chance to back down.
Once the fight is on, I suppose you better commit yourself to doing what it takes to get home in as few pieces as possible, one being the preferred number. And do so in a hurry.
I only had to punch the guy in the arm a couple of times. But that was over 30 years an a million crimes chows ago....I think these days a punch to more vital areas could be necessary.

I agree about the school thing. Snapping was another one of my concerns too for normal fighting, it turns everyday people into killers (which is what I think I was trying to get at). And no... I don't watch crime shows. I rarely watch tv.

 

[Chris Parker]

A subject that came up between me and k-man was fighting relating to bullying. I know most bullies are insecure and easily intimidated, but that's not the case for some. And, when avoidance, deescalation, and other self defense tools fail, you are in a sticky situation.

My view is you never know what someone is capable of, especially someone that goes out looking for trouble. Some people don't need a motive! They just act to act. If he/she forces you into a fight, you don't know if it was premeditated the night before, if it was unmotivated and he/she was looking for an easy target, or if (s)he just has a bad temper and wants to get revenge. You don't know what is going through his/her mind, what is in his/her pockets, ect. If they don't back down, I would come to treat the situation as if my life were on the line, because imho, it probably is. If nothing is stopping him/her from fighting a reluctant opponent, what is stopping him/her from raping, kidnapping, and/or killing you?

I know that this is the extreme side of things, and only a minority of bullies are actually like this, but I think it's still worth discussing. I feel that we take bullies too lightly here sometimes. What are your thoughts?

As K-Man said, that's not really anything to do with bullying... bullies aren't going around "looking for trouble", and they definitely have a motive. I do agree that bullies can be taken too lightly... but that's to do with poor recognition at times and social conventions that frown upon "causing a scene", which is what the bully actually does, and you would therefore also be doing. Honestly, this is a rather complicated topic, and it's not easy to cover in broad strokes like this... workplace bullies are different to school ones, which are different to those you might encounter in traffic (the methods and scope change, the motivations are often, if not the same, at least stemming from the same place). The first step is knowing exactly what it is...

Bullying is pretty specific as a type of asocial violence. In fact it is often the threat of violence rather than actual violence. It is also normally restricted in that the bully would almost always know his/her victim or at very least the group of people being intimidated. Raping, kidnapping and murder are totally unrelated to bullying.



I don't know where you got the impression that bullies are 'easily intimidated'. Bullies by the very definition are the ones doing the intimidating but they will usually leave alone those who are strong enough to stand up for themselves. Of course bullies exist in the home and workplace too but for this discussion I'm thinking more of the physical bullying. Is does exist in some workplaces, more likely to be the trade type businesses but the most common place would be the schools because of the age and size differences.

De-escalation would be pretty difficult in most situations too because normally you don't hold any aces. Possibly explaining that your SAS brother, on leave from Afghanistan, is picking you up from school in 30 minutes might be one option. Normally though you do what is demanded or you get thumped, not usually even severely beaten. Avoidance would always be the first option but not always possible.


This is nothing to do with bullying. Bullying is not picking a fight. Bullies normally posture but the do not want to fight. They use the threat of fighting which is why bullying always has a weaker or perceived to be weaker victim.
Self Defence training includes teaching you how not to look like a victim. Revenge has nothing to do with bullying either.


Bullies don't normally use weapons either apart from maybe a stick. Anything else could see them charged with assault etc. You say, "if they don't back down, I would come to treat the situation as if my life were on the line, because imho, it probably is." To say your life is on the line because a bully threatened you and wouldn't back down, so you pulled a knife out of your pocket and stabbed him, is not likely to help you beat the manslaughter charges in court.

My thoughts ... Very little of what you have posted is actually bullying and what does relate to bullying is totally wrong.
:asian:

Just a small thing... bullies are kinda the epitome of social violence, not asocial violence....

perhaps I should clarify. I'm talking about the extremely rare cases like this. I did not know you guys were also assuming that the bully knew you ect. there can be instances in a grocery line, for instance. that's when deesculation usually works. and if you know them, well you make the judgement. but there is always a slight chance off them being the aytypical bully.

as for everything else, I agree with what has been said. the garden variety bully is insecure though, so I believe they can be intimidated by an unexpected response ect. maybe discouraged is a better word though.

dang, looking back at my posts I really needed to add a disclaimer stating I'm talking about the extreme. I need to better clarify in the future. in the post above, staying prepared is what I was saying when I said to keep the blade accessible in such a rare situation, or one that can easily develop into such.

Okay, cool. So not bullies, then.

I agree about the school thing. Snapping was another one of my concerns too for normal fighting, it turns everyday people into killers (which is what I think I was trying to get at). And no... I don't watch crime shows. I rarely watch tv.

Er... right. I'd calm the imagination down, then.

 

[K-man]

Just a small thing... bullies are kinda the epitome of social violence, not asocial violence....

Yes they are. Don't know how I came to call them asocial. Maybe I was caught up in the moment. You know, the happy idea of slitting all those throats etc. Right up my alley as you would clearly recognise. Now that reminds me of Alice's Restaurant! Remember Alice?

 

[wingchun100]

A subject that came up between me and k-man was fighting relating to bullying. I know most bullies are insecure and easily intimidated, but that's not the case for some. And, when avoidance, deescalation, and other self defense tools fail, you are in a sticky situation.

My view is you never know what someone is capable of, especially someone that goes out looking for trouble. Some people don't need a motive! They just act to act. If he/she forces you into a fight, you don't know if it was premeditated the night before, if it was unmotivated and he/she was looking for an easy target, or if (s)he just has a bad temper and wants to get revenge. You don't know what is going through his/her mind, what is in his/her pockets, ect. If they don't back down, I would come to treat the situation as if my life were on the line, because imho, it probably is. If nothing is stopping him/her from fighting a reluctant opponent, what is stopping him/her from raping, kidnapping, and/or killing you?

I know that this is the extreme side of things, and only a minority of bullies are actually like this, but I think it's still worth discussing. I feel that we take bullies too lightly here sometimes. What are your thoughts?

Part of your thread reminds me of a line from DARK KNIGHT: "Some men just want to watch the world burn."

 

[Transk53]

As someone with experiance with bullying, I would try to convey what it like to be bullied. I used to be the Bart type kid at school and had more than one and more than one trip to the doctors. Still, this is a subject that sends my emotional state nuclear. They just scum and are not people, also just really need a ....... ... ....... The worst part is, the school system especially in the UK, is no better than when I started school in 19:76. Some men need to watch their balls Burn imho.

 

[DennisBreene]

As someone with experiance with bullying, I would try to convey what it like to be bullied. I used to be the Bart type kid at school and had more than one and more than one trip to the doctors. Still, this is a subject that sends my emotional state nuclear. They just scum and are not people, also just really need a ....... ... ....... The worst part is, the school system especially in the UK, is no better than when I started school in 19:76. Some men need to watch their balls Burn imho.

As I have talked to friends in martial arts, the number of us who were bullies when young has impressed me. I don't know if it is really different that the general population, but many of us still have some level of visceral reaction to being bullied. So even though our average "school yard" or in my case next door neighbor, bully may not have inflicted a great deal of physical harm, some of the emotional wounds run deep. In my case, my old next door neighbor, seems to have become an up standing citizen. When I visit my boyhood home, we have had pleasant superficial conversations. I still cannot bring myself to trust that his true nature is changed, however. I think that finding a way to let some of that old frustration and anger go is probably healthy. Forgiveness has more to do releasing yourself from a burden than releasing the one you forgive.

 

[Transk53]

As I have talked to friends in martial arts, the number of us who were bullies when young has impressed me. I don't know if it is really different that the general population, but many of us still have some level of visceral reaction to being bullied. So even though our average "school yard" or in my case next door neighbor, bully may not have inflicted a great deal of physical harm, some of the emotional wounds run deep. In my case, my old next door neighbor, seems to have become an up standing citizen. When I visit my boyhood home, we have had pleasant superficial conversations. I still cannot bring myself to trust that his true nature is changed, however. I think that finding a way to let some of that old frustration and anger go is probably healthy. Forgiveness has more to do releasing yourself from a burden than releasing the one you forgive.

On a philosophical you are indeed correct. I am not going to be stupid state that ifI came across one of them now, I would go ballistic and wade in. Twenty years ago maybe, not now. As has been mentioned, it is a tricky situation to discuss, mainly down to the blurred vision of what constitutes being a bully. One time when I (13 I think) went for a walk, a confrontation ensued and I won. Back then it would have been purely for satisfaction that I won. Now I would label that as being reprehensible and quite pathetic. I actually chose to react aggressively rather than defensively. Two words that are used as one of the biggest excuses. IE, "he moved his hand Guv and I elbowed him in self defence" To me for a fleeting moment, I bacame the very thing thatI dispised, just to make a point. This may well be contradictory, but the following is spot on for personally.

bully may not have inflicted a great deal of physical harm, some of the emotional wounds run deep

So true!!

 

[K-man]

. One time when I (13 I think) went for a walk, a confrontation ensued and I won. Back then it would have been purely for satisfaction that I won. Now I would label that as being reprehensible and quite pathetic. I actually chose to react aggressively rather than defensively.

I might look at it slightly differently. Yes, it might seem pathetic in hindsight but, if it was a true bullying situation, it is most likely the bully would leave you alone after you had the fight. Sure, we can talk about deescalation and other ways that might better deal with the situation but,in reality, how many 13 year olds have those skills. Bullying is endemic at school, in the workplace and even at home. I really think that it needs to be addressed by society, probably through the education system, rather than leaving a young boy to work it out by himself.
:asian:

 

[Transk53]

I might look at it slightly differently. Yes, it might seem pathetic in hindsight but, if it was a true bullying situation, it is most likely the bully would leave you alone after you had the fight. Sure, we can talk about deescalation and other ways that might better deal with the situation but,in reality, how many 13 year olds have those skills. Bullying is endemic at school, in the workplace and even at home. I really think that it needs to be addressed by society, probably through the education system, rather than leaving a young boy to work it out by himself.
:asian:

Nice reply K-man. I cannot say for certain, but I do believe the above kid was a playground hanger on. Don't remember what he looks like now, but I did have to leg it a few times from kids like that. They saw me get hit and rightly (at the time) viewed me as easy meat which I was. I used to just get my hands to protect myself, one or twice I did get a strike away, but usually did not and just took it. There is a tangible reason behind my then mindset, but I did not like hurting people.

The school system in the UK to deal with this issue is just a complete joke. Having only spent two years in the mainstream sustem at a comprehensive (that was quite enough), I was shielded to some extent at my other schools, I find really quite sad that a colleagues child is being bullied. The school answer was counselling. Eh.. A eight year getting counselling for something beyond their understanding. You are right though, bullying is a global problem and entrenched in the overall mindset. The word probably comes up more than the amount of babies born. Unless a few Gene Roddenberry's suddenly descend from the sky, I doubt bullying will ever be solved. Anyway I'll shut up now, I only understand from one perspective.