Jr. Black Belt Test

[LawDog]

"Exclusive" martial arts club could have one of the following two interpertations.
1) When anyone, no matter what their handi-cap or limitations are, can be developed to their fullest potential by this club. Very few clubs can do this so they are exclusive.
2) Taking the best and allowing only them in. This is done for the purpose of "image". Someone else has done the hard work and the "Exclusive Club" takes the bows.

Junior Black Belt.
Either you are a Black Belt or you are not, there is no such thing as a sub level Dan. In many systems a Junior B.B. is an Ikyu rank not a Dan rank. They are simply a 1'st deg. Brown Belt and, for what ever reasons, is allowed to wear a Black Belt.
Some schools even have degree's of Junior Black Belt ???.

In my school we do not have Juniors, you are either of Black Belt ability or you are not.
Again each to their own, it is their reputation or image that could faulter.
:cheers:

 

[KempoGuy06]

a lot a great posts on this thread. some more than others. I have no experience in teaching other than helping a lower rank student work through some of his/her material, so my views are limited.

That being said I feel that I have the right, should I open a school, to pick and choose who I want to teach. For whatever reason it may be. It is my school and I make the decisions. Will I be ignorant in my choice, no. I understand what people are saying about politically correct and all that. I guess Im not politically correct at least Ive been told so, but I have my opinion about things and all that. I dont make an effort to be to PC because I have noticed that people become fake. And to be perfectly honest I think it is a load of BS. If more people were honest about how they feel then...well...we would have a lot more honesty in the world. I am and dont plant to be anyone else. Ive been called bullheaded and pig headed a lot but I have made it 23 years (almost 24) in this world with out giving a **** what people think about me and I dont plan to start. If you dont like me for who I am or that I speak the truth, at least you will walk away and not be able to deny that I am an honest man and know who I am. Anyway that is a little off topic I just wanted to share my .02

B

 

[SL4Drew]

Doc, I've noticed that"sir" is a code name for a bad word around here so I'd prefer you use Steve or stevebjj.

Man, I guess I better stop calling Doc, sir...

 

[SL4Drew]

Doc, you posted plained that you don't take people with dyslexia, no amount of pompous verbiosity will disguise that. People with this condition can join the armed services and die for their country but musn't step foot over the threshold over your little school to pursue what is a hobby/sport because you chose to take only the people you want. This of course will be young able bodied and probably male. yeah right.

We aren't talking about the fire services, rights of the disabled or anything like this we are talking purely about people with dyslexia being though not good enough to train at one martial arts 'school'. Sure you have the choice over who you take but the sad thing is you'll never know what you're missing.

In light of his explanation about training his nephew, don't you think maybe he meant a condition severe enough to preclude the student meeting his expectations and succeeding? I would have thought that clarified what he said. Obviously, this hit a button with you, sir. But I think if you re-read what he said about his nephew, you'd see this in a different light.

 

[MJS]

You know, if we think about it, any place that provides a service has the right to refuse service. How many times have we seen the "We reserve the right to....." signs? If we refuse to pay our light bill, the power co. reserves the right to shut you off. If we refuse to pay for an item and proceed to walk out of the store, the police reserve the right to arrest us. A martial arts school is no different. A friend of mine who runs one kicked out a student because of his actions in the school.

I also find it amazing, how people can engage in a discussion, be presented with opposing views, and get so upset, that they leave. And this is a forum. Do those people do the same thing in real life?

IMHO, a BB respresents a certain level of mastery in an area, just like a college degree. I'd rather be known for quality than a quantity of crappy BBs running around. "Yeah look at me. I have 100 BB students! This goes to show what a good school I run!" Actually I'd rather have 3 quality BBs, than 100 poor ones. People seem more concerned with keeping everyone happy, instead of standing up for whats right. Do these same parents who get upset little Joey didn't pass, also complain to the school system when Joey is held back? Do they complain because he isn't good enough for the baseball, basketball or whatever other sports team doesn't pick him? Most likely the answer is yes, because they have their blinders and rose colored glasses on. They may, deep down, see that Joey sucks, but just can't bring themselves to admit it, because they'd rather live in denial.

This is just another reason why I would rather see people wait until their kid is 10 or 12 before enrolling, so to avoid the Mcdojo appearance by having a 10yr old 3rd degree BB running around, because the kid started when he was 3.

I also find it odd that we can have 2 clips....1 showing a poor quality student, the other showing quality students. Its obvious by those clips, that theres a big difference, yet people continue to justify giving rank, a JR BB rank no less to the first kid.

 

[SL4Drew]

a lot a great posts on this thread. some more than others. I have no experience in teaching other than helping a lower rank student work through some of his/her material, so my views are limited.

That being said I feel that I have the right, should I open a school, to pick and choose who I want to teach. For whatever reason it may be. It is my school and I make the decisions. Will I be ignorant in my choice, no. I understand what people are saying about PC and all that. In my opinion PC is BS. It is ok to be a little PC but people start to go over board and then they become fake and forget who THEY are. Call me bullheaded or pigheaded all you want but Ive made it this far in life without caring what other people think of me Ill do just fine from here on out.

B

Sir, I totally agree with you. I reject any sort of entitlement mentality. Just because I have something you want, doesn't mean I should be legally obligated to give it to you. In martial arts school, accepting students you don't want can be detrimental to the other students, your reputation, and possibly the community. If you make exceptions and excuses for each student out on the floor, then you have no minimum, universal standard. You can't have any consistent quality that way, which seems important in an endeavor that may involve death. Plus, if you profess to teach someone 'deadly' skills, how can you in good conscious teach every person that wants them.

 

[KempoGuy06]

Sir, I totally agree with you. I reject any sort of entitlement mentality. Just because I have something you want, doesn't mean I should be legally obligated to give it to you. In martial arts school, accepting students you don't want can be detrimental to the other students, your reputation, and possibly the community. If you make exceptions and excuses for each student out on the floor, then you have no minimum, universal standard. You can't have any consistent quality that way, which seems important in an endeavor that may involve death. Plus, if you profess to teach someone 'deadly' skills, how can you in good conscious teach every person that wants them.

sorry for changing my post on you there but I felt like it was a little..well not right. but the idea of the post is the same.

B

 

[SL4Drew]

I also find it odd that we can have 2 clips....1 showing a poor quality student, the other showing quality students. Its obvious by those clips, that theres a big difference, yet people continue to justify giving rank, a JR BB rank no less to the first kid.

Not to go far afield, but I really don't remember anyone in those vids I'd personally throw a black belt on, whether a junior, fourth degree, or otherwise.

But I'd personally prefer not to be highly critical of the kid. Based on what I saw, he's living up to the expectations of his school and has no reason to think there is anything wrong with those standards.

 

[Steve]

Junior Black Belt.
Either you are a Black Belt or you are not, there is no such thing as a sub level Dan. In many systems a Junior B.B. is an Ikyu rank not a Dan rank. They are simply a 1'st deg. Brown Belt and, for what ever reasons, is allowed to wear a Black Belt.
Some schools even have degree's of Junior Black Belt ???.

As I've said, I'm all for standards. I think that BJJ does it well, functionally establishing a blue belt as the high standard for kids.

Still, just for the sake of argument, isn't the entire belt system somewhat arbitrary to begin with? We've had these discussions in the past about what a black belt means, and this and that, and it seems that there are several rational opinions on the matter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't belts an invention of Kudokan Judo and so less than 150 years old?

 

[Grenadier]

Is it really anyone's business to tell someone how he must run his own school?

For example, should someone who only wants to teach adults feel obligated to accept children, just because there's an exceptionally good child who could succeed in the cirriculum?

On the other side of the coin, should someone who only caters to children, be criticized for refusing to accept adults, even if certain adults are more than willing to learn a children-tailored program? Someone who excels in teaching children, such as Dawn Barnes, should be able to do as she pleases, and given her success, I wouldn't argue with the results.

If a school caters to a particular group of folks, then that's their choice, and theirs alone. If someone wants to try to convince them to accept them, then they're certainly free to try, but if they can't convince them, then they're free to go elsewhere.


There are many schools out there, whose practices are not in line with my beliefs. For example:

• 
  I don't agree that it must take 10 years for someone to obtain a yudansha ranking.
• I don't agree that you must be 18 years old to get a black belt.
• I don't like the idea of 15 year old kids holding godan rankings (5th degree black belt).
• I don't like the idea of automatically giving someone a black belt once they've reached a certain amount of time in the system.
• I especially don't like it when 13 year old children are being called Sensei (assuming that the title of "sensei" is for senior instructors).

However, those practices are the choice of that particular school, and if they're happy with the way they want to run things, then that's their choice. If they're willing to live with the consequences of what they teach, then so be it. While it is my right to criticize someone's practices, it's not my business to tell them that they have to run things a certain way, unless they were actually seeking my input on that matter.

 

[Grenadier]

Still, just for the sake of argument, isn't the entire belt system somewhat arbitrary to begin with? We've had these discussions in the past about what a black belt means, and this and that, and it seems that there are several rational opinions on the matter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't belts an invention of Kudokan Judo and so less than 150 years old?

You're right, that the use of belts in this manner came from Kano Jigoro, and that each system that uses belt rankings is going to differ in various ways.

For many systems, earning the shodan ranking simply means that you have a decent proficiency in the fundamentals, and that you're ready to take on the more advanced training. Like you pointed out, in the Brazilian Ju Jutsu systems, this level of proficiency is representative of the blue belt ranking.

To each their own, I'd say.

 

[JadeDragon3]

What they call MMA these days would not work on the street for most people. It may work nicely when you are equal in strength or stronger, just as big or bigger and it is a one on one situation.

What I see on TV reminds me more of professional wrestling than a martial arts competition. Not since the days of the WWF have I seen so many over developed gladiators banging heads and twisting their opponents into arm locks and choke holds. About the only thing we haven’t seen yet is masks and cage matches but don’t fret I’m sure it won’t be long. Sorry Hulkster but you’ll need to hide the folding chairs and watch out for “foreign objects” because big money has finally found the latest payday and almost everyone (except me) seems to have bought completely into it. LOL

If you don't think that MMA would work on the streets then you need to re-evaluate MMA. Give me specific reasons why you think that MMA techniques would not work on the streets. You don't think that a rear naked choke could be applied on someone in a real actual fight? Or pherhaps a straight arm bar? Why do you think this?

Also MMA is far from WWE style wrestling. UFC fights are not fixed. No one knows the out come in advance. They really hit and really bleed.

 

[Steve]

Man, I guess I better stop calling Doc, sir...

haha. There are always exceptions!

 

[Doc]

Doc, you posted plained that you don't take people with dyslexia, no amount of pompous verbiosity will disguise that. People with this condition can join the armed services and die for their country but musn't step foot over the threshold over your little school to pursue what is a hobby/sport because you chose to take only the people you want. This of course will be young able bodied and probably male. yeah right.

We aren't talking about the fire services, rights of the disabled or anything like this we are talking purely about people with dyslexia being though not good enough to train at one martial arts 'school'. Sure you have the choice over who you take but the sad thing is you'll never know what you're missing.

Look if you're not going to read the posts, just keep it to yourself. I already said my nephew is a blue belt. You're only focusing on what you want to say and see, and appear to be having a purely emotional argument, primarily with yourself. You think I'm wrong, I think you're thinking "emotionally." I dare someone to tell me I have to teach them because they said so. You don't get it and don't want to. I have an idea, you teach them.

 

[Doc]

Doc, I've noticed that"sir" is a code name for a bad word around here so I'd prefer you use Steve or stevebjj.

I am sure you've got it all under control. At least, with 5 lawyers you'll be well represented when you are sued.

I was raised to call everyone sir, until they tell you otherwise. Thanks Steve!

 

[GBlues]

You know, if we think about it, any place that provides a service has the right to refuse service. How many times have we seen the "We reserve the right to....." signs? If we refuse to pay our light bill, the power co. reserves the right to shut you off. If we refuse to pay for an item and proceed to walk out of the store, the police reserve the right to arrest us. A martial arts school is no different. A friend of mine who runs one kicked out a student because of his actions in the school.

I also find it amazing, how people can engage in a discussion, be presented with opposing views, and get so upset, that they leave. And this is a forum. Do those people do the same thing in real life?

IMHO, a BB respresents a certain level of mastery in an area, just like a college degree. I'd rather be known for quality than a quantity of crappy BBs running around. "Yeah look at me. I have 100 BB students! This goes to show what a good school I run!" Actually I'd rather have 3 quality BBs, than 100 poor ones. People seem more concerned with keeping everyone happy, instead of standing up for whats right. Do these same parents who get upset little Joey didn't pass, also complain to the school system when Joey is held back? Do they complain because he isn't good enough for the baseball, basketball or whatever other sports team doesn't pick him? Most likely the answer is yes, because they have their blinders and rose colored glasses on. They may, deep down, see that Joey sucks, but just can't bring themselves to admit it, because they'd rather live in denial.

This is just another reason why I would rather see people wait until their kid is 10 or 12 before enrolling, so to avoid the Mcdojo appearance by having a 10yr old 3rd degree BB running around, because the kid started when he was 3.

I also find it odd that we can have 2 clips....1 showing a poor quality student, the other showing quality students. Its obvious by those clips, that theres a big difference, yet people continue to justify giving rank, a JR BB rank no less to the first kid.

Woe, woe, woe, woe! Well, I was going to leave the discussion, because I personally didn't want to get into the whole dyslexia thing with doc. However, now my pride has been wounded. LOL!

1st and foremost, my position ain't changed. If your giving a black belt test regardless of adult or junior, and they earn it, they have the chops, they should be considered a black belt. That's my opinion. If as an example, I'm drilling for a company for 6 months I do not expect for them to then on the 7th hire somebody new and make me a helper, and tell me I've been nothing but a helper the whole time I been drilling holes in the ground for the last 6 months. Either you are or you are not. If a jr. bb is not a bb, then it is not, and it is something else. When a child here's you say, "Now your a jr blackbelt", he don't hear that. He hears "BLACK BELT". It's only natural. And if your going to give that designation of "Black Belt" behind JR. but it not be considered a real black belt, then you shouldn't give one period, in my opinion. You can do whatever you want, I just don't feel that decieving people is one of those things that I like to do, or have done to me. I just feel that there is a shady area when you start doing that.

Now, martial arts instructors absolutely have the right to teach whoever they want, and do it anyway that they want. It does not benefit the student to be given the magical "black belt", if he doesn't have the skills and maturity to handle the responsiblities of the title. If I'm not ready to be driller, I shouldn't be drilling, period. If I'm not ready to be black belt I shouldn't be one, not even a jr, cause I ain't ready for it. My opinion and you can do with it what you will.

Now as far as Doc's dyslexic comment, he did say when asked how he would handle having a student like that, that he would refuse them training. Period, no if and or but's about it, they may not train with doc. However, then a few posts later he tries to defend himself with the fact that his nephew is dyslexic. Which, in that case in my mind you can't have it both ways. Either you do or you do not. Or you just have double standards for the rest of the world but your nephew is ok. The same with the question about a returning vet, who lost his arm. doc says, "OH yeah, I'd accept him right back into the classes." But two posts ago, you said that, you have standards and they don't include teaching the disabled. I guy who lost his arm is now technically disabled. You have standards that can't change, they are set in stone. You want to keep the quality of your style up, and guy with one arm definitely isn't going to be able to do all of the kata's, is he? So there goes your quality of excellence right out the window.

And no the kid in the first clip should not be a black belt. I've seen in my own classes that I attend 5 year old kids that have more heart, and skills than that little guy. They are just white belts still. So my opinion if I was making the decision, no he shouldn't have got it, he didn't earn it. He's not up to snuff. Period. That's my position on that. However, I'm not making that decision.:asian:

 

[Twin Fist]

should I?


nope, not gonna

If you don't think that MMA would work on the streets then you need to re-evaluate MMA. Give me specific reasons why you think that MMA techniques would not work on the streets. You don't think that a rear naked choke could be applied on someone in a real actual fight? Or pherhaps a straight arm bar? Why do you think this?

Also MMA is far from WWE style wrestling. UFC fights are not fixed. No one knows the out come in advance. They really hit and really bleed.

 

[Doc]

Doc and everyone else, I think that you've answered all of my questions. I don't disagree in any significant way. The only thing, Doc, is that you answered the question regarding the soldier who is now missing a limb, but I'm still unclear. If a guy who is missing a limb cannot accomplish the curriculum, you would still allow him to train at your school?

Long time students already have haven't they? Once you're "family" you are always family, no matter what.

 

[MJS]

Not to go far afield, but I really don't remember anyone in those vids I'd personally throw a black belt on, whether a junior, fourth degree, or otherwise.

But I'd personally prefer not to be highly critical of the kid. Based on what I saw, he's living up to the expectations of his school and has no reason to think there is anything wrong with those standards.

Yes, I suppose you do have a valid point. I mean, afterall, the real issue isn't so much with the kid, but with the teacher. He's the one who's promoting the kid and IMO, that instructor, whomever it is, seems more interested in the quantity, not the quality, of a black belt.

As for the other clips....IMO, I feel that they demonstrated much more quality. The power, intensity....it was there as far as I'm concerned. As I said, I don't know GM Kingi personally, and I don't even train in Kajukenbo, but it seems to me that he doesn't run a belt factory. I believe that if you get rank under him, you're really deserving of that rank.

 

[Doc]

"Exclusive" martial arts club could have one of the following two interpertations.
1) When anyone, no matter what their handi-cap or limitations are, can be developed to their fullest potential by this club. Very few clubs can do this so they are exclusive.
2) Taking the best and allowing only them in. This is done for the purpose of "image". Someone else has done the hard work and the "Exclusive Club" takes the bows.

Actually there are a lot more meanings possible. You just seem to be limited in your ability to come up with any that might be complimentary, but that is no surprise considering your proclivities.