Jr. Black Belt Test

[Doc]

Speaking generally about the ADA and the state analogs, there are several reasons why martial arts schools are probably safe. One, they probably aren't places of public accommodation and thus exempt. Even if they were such places, safety is usually a specifically exempted consideration. Arguably people certain types of disabilities would present a danger to themselves and others, which again would make the law not applicable.

Usually the laws exempt certain 'places of public accommodation' if requring the place to offer the service would fundamentally alter the business. You can't walk into your ENT doctor and demand they treat your spinal cord injury under the ADA. Then even if arguably you may be required to make accommodations, you maybe excused or the change mitigated if the change is not readily achievable.

So, I would think Doc is pretty safe.

Spoken like one of my lawyers. Oh wait! You ARE one of my lawyers.

 

[SL4Drew]

As for the other clips....IMO, I feel that they demonstrated much more quality. The power, intensity....it was there as far as I'm concerned. As I said, I don't know GM Kingi personally, and I don't even train in Kajukenbo, but it seems to me that he doesn't run a belt factory. I believe that if you get rank under him, you're really deserving of that rank.

I thought this school was with Rick Fowler. And yes I agree that the kids lacked intensity.

 

[Steve]

Long time students already have haven't they? Once you're "family" you are always family, no matter what.

Okay. Makes sense. I'm still not sure I agree. Doc (and anyone else!), if you could take a look at another thread, I'd appreciate it. I started it because this was moving more into ADA/Discrimination and MA and less about kids.

 

[MJS]

Woe, woe, woe, woe! Well, I was going to leave the discussion, because I personally didn't want to get into the whole dyslexia thing with doc. However, now my pride has been wounded. LOL!

1st and foremost, my position ain't changed. If your giving a black belt test regardless of adult or junior, and they earn it, they have the chops, they should be considered a black belt. That's my opinion. If as an example, I'm drilling for a company for 6 months I do not expect for them to then on the 7th hire somebody new and make me a helper, and tell me I've been nothing but a helper the whole time I been drilling holes in the ground for the last 6 months. Either you are or you are not. If a jr. bb is not a bb, then it is not, and it is something else. When a child here's you say, "Now your a jr blackbelt", he don't hear that. He hears "BLACK BELT". It's only natural. And if your going to give that designation of "Black Belt" behind JR. but it not be considered a real black belt, then you shouldn't give one period, in my opinion. You can do whatever you want, I just don't feel that decieving people is one of those things that I like to do, or have done to me. I just feel that there is a shady area when you start doing that.

And this is why, IMHO, I feel that things need to be presented to the potential new student and parents, BEFORE they join. That way there are no surprises. A jr bb is not an adult bb, plain and simple. In many schools, the material is condensed, so as I said earlier about the 24 techs. per belt in the Parker system, for a child, I'd imagine many schools trim that down. So, once the child reaches the jrbb point, they learn the rest of the material, which takes them to the point, when they should be ready for an adult bb. Ex: A child starts at 4. By the time he's 10, technically he's probably put in the usual amount of time for one to reach black, however due to age, he is still young, so the jrbb fills that gap.

Now, martial arts instructors absolutely have the right to teach whoever they want, and do it anyway that they want. It does not benefit the student to be given the magical "black belt", if he doesn't have the skills and maturity to handle the responsiblities of the title. If I'm not ready to be driller, I shouldn't be drilling, period. If I'm not ready to be black belt I shouldn't be one, not even a jr, cause I ain't ready for it. My opinion and you can do with it what you will.

IMHO, that kid does not have the skills nor the maturity. Seems to me the inst. is more interested in pumping out as many bb's as possible, regardless of quality. So sad thats the road some of the arts have taken.

Now as far as Doc's dyslexic comment, he did say when asked how he would handle having a student like that, that he would refuse them training. Period, no if and or but's about it, they may not train with doc. However, then a few posts later he tries to defend himself with the fact that his nephew is dyslexic. Which, in that case in my mind you can't have it both ways. Either you do or you do not. Or you just have double standards for the rest of the world but your nephew is ok. The same with the question about a returning vet, who lost his arm. doc says, "OH yeah, I'd accept him right back into the classes." But two posts ago, you said that, you have standards and they don't include teaching the disabled. I guy who lost his arm is now technically disabled. You have standards that can't change, they are set in stone. You want to keep the quality of your style up, and guy with one arm definitely isn't going to be able to do all of the kata's, is he? So there goes your quality of excellence right out the window.

I haven't mentioned the comments Doc has made. I have agreed with some, and have shown that by 'thanking' him for his post. Doc has his standards at his school, and IMO, whoever he wants or doesn't want to teach is his business and his only. If someone doesn't like it, they simply leave his school and go elsewhere. As I said, a business has the right to refuse service to anyone. I addressed that comment in a prior post.

And no the kid in the first clip should not be a black belt. I've seen in my own classes that I attend 5 year old kids that have more heart, and skills than that little guy. They are just white belts still. So my opinion if I was making the decision, no he shouldn't have got it, he didn't earn it. He's not up to snuff. Period. That's my position on that. However, I'm not making that decision.:asian:

At least we agree on something.

 

[Doc]

Now as far as Doc's dyslexic comment, he did say when asked how he would handle having a student like that, that he would refuse them training. Period, no if and or but's about it, they may not train with doc. However, then a few posts later he tries to defend himself with the fact that his nephew is dyslexic. Which, in that case in my mind you can't have it both ways. Either you do or you do not. Or you just have double standards for the rest of the world but your nephew is ok. The same with the question about a returning vet, who lost his arm. doc says, "OH yeah, I'd accept him right back into the classes." But two posts ago, you said that, you have standards and they don't include teaching the disabled. I guy who lost his arm is now technically disabled. You have standards that can't change, they are set in stone. You want to keep the quality of your style up, and guy with one arm definitely isn't going to be able to do all of the kata's, is he? So there goes your quality of excellence right out the window.

Let me be clear for you. It's about the standards. Once you come into the student body because you can meet the standards, I don't care after that. The initial interview and screening are what matters. Once someone enters your family, you don't kick them out because of misfortune. I mentioned my nephew to make the point that he meets the standards even with the disorder. if he didn't I wouldn't take him. Standards first, the way it should be.

 

[MJS]

I thought this school was with Rick Fowler. And yes I agree that the kids lacked intensity.

I honestly have no idea who the first school is affiliated with. As for the other clips I posted, those are GM Rick Kingi and Prof. John Bishops clips, both located in sunny Ca. Kajukenbo schools.

 

[SL4Drew]

I honestly have no idea who the first school is affiliated with. As for the other clips I posted, those are GM Rick Kingi and Prof. John Bishops clips, both located in sunny Ca. Kajukenbo schools.

I missed those, sorry.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Political correctness my ****, ignorance more like.

As a member of Docs extended student family, and a dyslexic, I absolutely disagree with you. Wrestled with -- and still do -- ADHD and dyslexia, both as a kid, and as an adult. With medication, and great effort to detail, I can reign in my thoughts and focus enough, on occasion, to remember the difference between my right and left sides.

In the motion kenpo model, this has not been that large a detriment. Instructor yells 'Right forward bow", I just watch to see what everybody else does, and mimic which foot they have forward...never determining which it is. Worked out directions with my ex when we were driving places. Replaced "turn left" and "turn right" with "Make a Dave at the light, and a Monique at the stop sign". Something concrete to relate to.

To make it worse, I can miss some sleep, have some wiring in my brain fritz out, and lose track of what hand I do things with. Was ambidextrous, now am moslty left-handed for coordinative things (writing, eating), and right handed with power things. Kenpo techniques? Motion kenpo system, I can spontaneously do the opposite side with the same coordination, speed, power, as the "traditional" side, typically confusing the hell out my students and making it necessary for my senior students to work out a sign language cue for "You did it on us again", so I can switch back to the right-side of the tech.

I have "writing glasses". Prescription glasses with an Irlen institute tint on them, so I can see words, sentences, and paragraphs, instead of fields of inky rivers wiggling over the page like insects. I use them to write these posts online, as without them, the words and letters won't stop jumbling like they are in a jig on a vibrating table full of ants.

Training at Docs requires me to actually be able to attend to "left" and "right". Been in this body 44 years, and still don't have it nailed down. To make it worse, his attenntion to detail about "in this position, dominant hand over non-dominant hand", means we have to test for it, then I have to remember which it actually was (turns out I'm neurologically left-handed). And I have to do it fast enough to not ruin things for the rest of the class. That has been my burden with training in classes my whole karate life (since 1971, so far).

And do you know what I don't do? I don't blame Doc for my issue. He has a lot of information that's super valuable, and takes a great attention to detail to get. Between the crappy discs in my back and neck, ADHD, and dyslexia, I make it a point to prep before going in, so I'm not the cause of

a) slowing everyone elses learning process down (I don't have the right to mess with their lessons...If I can't keep up, I owe it to others to stay out of the way. No one is under any obligations to diminish the quality of their experiences to meet the capacity of the lowest common denominator. If that were true, by extension, elaboration, and exaggeration, we should grind the educational system to a near-halt, so that we don't move any faster than our most cognitively disabled societal members can keep up), and,

b) exasperating Doc enough that he regrets the decision to let me join them.
​

Instead, I pre-medicate properly to minimize the anxiety around "will I be able to keep up?" (that anxiety is more distracting and debilitating, I think, then the actual disorder, but when your adult day-to-day life has been such a miserable struggle and disappointment to the people you love, becuase of how hard it can be to stay focused long enough to get dressed and out the freakin' door, anxiety about consequnces becomes an unavoidable part of the package). I try to nap before going in. I try to allow my mind a rest period, so I'm not going from a series of fragmenting stressors, into a class that requires a level of focus and right-vs-left that's typically beyond me anyway.

The wonderful combination of ADD/Dyslexia has ruined my life. Everything is harder. The amount of mental energy that goes into making a bloody pot of coffee is about parallel to what a non-ADD person might put into building a high-end doghouse from scratch. Add to this...remembering to file the proper paperwork on time with licensing boards or the taxman; getting bills paid remotely on time; actually washing the laundry laid out for weeks; tracking what stuff is in what pile; getting through all the books on "how to organize if you have ADD", written by people who don't, ... and...you ready for this Tez?...none of this is Docs fault, Doc's problem, Doc's concern, etc. His concern is keeping his commitments to himself, his instructor/friend (our systems founder), and his other students who actually CAN track the lesson and keep up.

I feel bad when I'm there. For detracting from the learning experience available to the others in class. So I try to learn, while staying out of the way. Add a few more like me to a class, and it would be absolutely unachievable for there to be any viable thread of information being added to the tapestry of learning for others present.

I have a doctorate in psych, and one in health sciences (my friends call me "double D"). And still can't rremember my right from my left. My dirty little secret, tis whole "learning disability" thing. Can you imagine trying to auscultate the heart, but confused which side the bugger is on just cuz you got a little less sleep the night before? There's a reason I'm a chiropractor, and not an MD surgeon...nothing to cut incorrectly ("We'll be removing the RIGHT kidney today, doctor"...uh, which one is that, Nurse?), and I just crack the bony bump that's sticking out where it shouldn't be, imparting motion where there wasn't any but shouldoughta been.

For as many "famous people" who have had dyslexia and similar dysfunctions, there are 1000 percent more who have lived wrecked lives, ruining not only theirs, but aspects of those with whom they share the ride. With proper prep, I can keep up. Sorta. And I'm still allowed in. Doc's nephew keeps up perfectly fine. He's allowed in. I know many who would not be able to keep up. They should not be allowed in. Simple, in my eyes.

Dave

 

[LawDog]

Got it wrong again, do I fuse into my answers to others questions,
*re-directs,
*partial quotes,
*misquotes
*large multi paragraph answers to, in my opion, confuse,
or simply refuses to answer or ignores a question that has been posed towards me.
As pointed out, I am but a simple person who only knows how to give direct and to the point answers. I am not as well versed in the English language like some are. I therefore must fall back on my real life / training experience and tell it, street version, like it is. If someone takes it wrong then they can simply re-post and ask me to explain my posting better.

 

[Tez3]

Doc, guess what, I do teach people with dyslexia. It doesn't always come with complications either. Don't get upset with me just because you posted something you know makes you look bad. You posted that you don't take dyslexics, plain and simple. You didn't say you consider how people cope before deciding to take them, you didn't say you refuse to take people with more than dyslexia, you said only that you don't accept them full stop, now you're trying to justify that. Btw my question was a perfectly honest one, I was curious to know how you dealt with the essay writing. You were dismissive in dealing with my question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tez3
What do you do in the case of dyslexia?

I don't accept them. Unquote

Now it seems you do, so why did you post that you don't? why all the stuff about it being political correctness? it was good of your student to defend you but should he have had to? Why did you deny him originally?
I have no problem with people deciding who they should teach and who they shouldn't but the sheer rudeness of a blanket ban on a particular condition without taking anything into consideration is inhumane and unfair. Now it seems the post was a falsehood and you do take people with dyslexia, a severe case by the account so why the denial in the first place.

Emotional? yeah, damn right and proud of it :ultracool

It's probably best not to call people sir unless you're positive they are male rofl!!

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Doc, guess what, I do teach people with dyslexia. It doesn't always come with complications either. Don't get upset with me just because you posted something you know makes you look bad. You posted that you don't take dyslexics, plain and simple. You didn't say you consider how people cope before deciding to take them, you didn't say you refuse to take people with more than dyslexia, you said only that you don't accept them full stop, now you're trying to justify that. Btw my question was a perfectly honest one, I was curious to know how you dealt with the essay writing. You were dismissive in dealing with my question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tez3
What do you do in the case of dyslexia?

I don't accept them. Unquote

Now it seems you do, so why did you post that you don't? why all the stuff about it being political correctness? it was good of your student to defend you but should he have had to? Why did you deny him originally?
I have no problem with people deciding who they should teach and who they shouldn't but the sheer rudeness of a blanket ban on a particular condition without taking anything into consideration is inhumane and unfair. Now it seems the post was a falsehood and you do take people with dyslexia, a severe case by the account so why the denial in the first place.

Emotional? yeah, damn right and proud of it :ultracool

It's probably best not to call people sir unless you're positive they are male rofl!!

If the student you're referring to is me, I was never intitially denied. I also didn't come to his defense: I stated my experience with my disorder, and with Doc. I get where he's coming from. On the other hand...Picking peanuts out of poop with pointy pliers to win a point seems a bit tedious. IMO.

And I knew you were a woman. I think I even teased you about your avatar, once or twice.

D.

 

[Tez3]

If the student you're referring to is me, I was never intitially denied. I also didn't come to his defense: I stated my experience with my disorder, and with Doc. I get where he's coming from. On the other hand...Picking peanuts out of poop with pointy pliers to win a point seems a bit tedious. IMO.

And I knew you were a woman. I think I even teased you about your avatar, once or twice.

D.

Just missed the points really didn't you Oh well if you can't see I'm not explaining further, it's dinner time here.

 

[DavidCC]

Doc, you posted plained that you don't take people with dyslexia, no amount of pompous verbiosity will disguise that. People with this condition can join the armed services and die for their country but musn't step foot over the threshold over your little school to pursue what is a hobby/sport because you chose to take only the people you want. This of course will be young able bodied and probably male. yeah right.

We aren't talking about the fire services, rights of the disabled or anything like this we are talking purely about people with dyslexia being though not good enough to train at one martial arts 'school'. Sure you have the choice over who you take but the sad thing is you'll never know what you're missing.

he did write that but he also wrote that he has a blue belt with dyslexia too.

How can those stmts be reconciled? Well,I think that if a person's dyslexia is so uncontrolled that they cannot pass a written exam, then they are not qualified for admission to DoOc's school. if it does not impeded them from passing the written exam, then it is not a problem.

"I want to come to your school but I can't live up to your requirement that {whatever it is}"

who would take that person?

ridiculous

 

[Tez3]

he did write that but he also wrote that he has a blue belt with dyslexia too.

How can those stmts be reconciled? Well,I think that if a person's dyslexia is so uncontrolled that they cannot pass a written exam, then they are not qualified for admission to DoOc's school. if it does not impeded them from passing the written exam, then it is not a problem.

"I want to come to your school but I can't live up to your requirement that {whatever it is}"

who would take that person?

ridiculous

You don't 'control' dyslexia as such. if there are no other conditions that go with it and many don't have, it's a case of having coping strategies. In schools, colleges etc this can be as simple as having someone who can take down dictation and type. for others it may be special glasses.
By your example not being to read or write means that illiterate people are also barred from training.

No one is saying you have to take students you don't want to, you can talk to any perspective student and discuss with them training, medical conditions and disabilities etc, then a reasoned decision can be made by both sides.If you feel you can doing nothing for this student, say so honestly, the student may have already decided that for themselves. however you may end up with a brilliant student who just needs to dictate their essay to someone, still their essay just been written down by someone else. You may decide you can cope with and teach a student with asthma but can't cope with an autistic student. Thats honesty and doing the best for all concerned.

What is wrong though is a blanket ban on anyone even asking to train with you because you've said 'no disabilities or medical conditions, no mentally or handicapped people will be accepted here' so don't even bother knocking on our door.

Btw its basically the same with teaching children, if you aren't a person who can teach children sympathically why do it? If you enjoy teaching children and believe you can teach them to a high standard, go for it.

 

[exile]

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[SL4Drew]

What is wrong though is a blanket ban on anyone even asking to train with you because you've said 'no disabilities or medical conditions, no mentally or handicapped people will be accepted here' so don't even bother knocking on our door.

Btw its basically the same with teaching children, if you aren't a person who can teach children sympathically why do it? If you enjoy teaching children and believe you can teach them to a high standard, go for it.

You are missing the much broader point and persistently want to stick to a single statement he made. The problem with this medium, is we really aren't having a conversation, but we really aren't writing essays. You have some time to be reflective, but not days, weeks, or months. And if someone says something unclear they cannot quickly explain what they mean. Offer a slew of posts have come in before any clarification can be offered.

For your own reasons (whatever they are) you refuse to accept ANY of the explanations given to you. You refuse to acknowledge that despite the statement there are at least two such students. To make one last run at it. The question was asked if he accepted people with disabilities, the answer was no. Then you asked about dyslexia specifically. Let me submit to you that if Doc's students with dyslexia are successful in his school, then they really aren't disabled for purposes of his teachings. I could also suggestive he was making a normative statement rather than a positive one.

To redirect this somewhat using your quote, you don't expect everyone to teach children, so why do you expect them to teach every person with a disability? Not everyone is equipped or qualified to do that. And several explanations were offered as to why "mainstreaming" everyone into a martial arts class is the best idea.

 

[Tez3]

You are missing the much broader point and persistently want to stick to a single statement he made. The problem with this medium, is we really aren't having a conversation, but we really aren't writing essays. You have some time to be reflective, but not days, weeks, or months. And if someone says something unclear they cannot quickly explain what they mean. Offer a slew of posts have come in before any clarification can be offered.

For your own reasons (whatever they are) you refuse to accept ANY of the explanations given to you. You refuse to acknowledge that despite the statement there are at least two such students. To make one last run at it. The question was asked if he accepted people with disabilities, the answer was no. Then you asked about dyslexia specifically. Let me submit to you that if Doc's students with dyslexia are successful in his school, then they really aren't disabled for purposes of his teachings. I could also suggestive he was making a normative statement rather than a positive one.

To redirect this somewhat using your quote, you don't expect everyone to teach children, so why do you expect them to teach every person with a disability? Not everyone is equipped or qualified to do that. And several explanations were offered as to why "mainstreaming" everyone into a martial arts class is the best idea.

You are misunderstanding me and I've stated things plainly. You have things in the wrong order.

Doc said he had essays as part of the grading for BB, I asked about dyslexic people as I was interested in how it was dealt with by someone else to increase my knowledge. He then said he didn't take them nor other handicapped people. I didn't raise the subject of disabilities or handicaps. I have never said anything about people being expected to teach everyone with a disability either, I think you need to re-read the thread.
Please do me the courtesy of getting things correct.

 

[SL4Drew]

You are misunderstanding me and I've stated things plainly. You have things in the wrong order.

Doc said he had essays as part of the grading for BB, I asked about dyslexic people as I was interested in how it was dealt with by someone else to increase my knowledge. He then said he didn't take them nor other handicapped people. I didn't raise the subject of disabilities or handicaps.
Please do me the courtesy of getting things correct.

The fact that was your entire response is illuminating. And I didn't say you asked the disability question because I knew you didn't. But you are right, the general question of disabilities came after your specific one.

The rest of my post stands. And it painfully clear to me there really is nothing that can be said further to you. Your mind is made up and no one can tell you anything different.

 

[Tez3]

The fact that was your entire response is illuminating. And I didn't say you asked the disability question because I knew you didn't. But you are right, the general question of disabilities came after your specific one.

The rest of my post stands. And it painfully clear to me there really is nothing that can be said further to you. Your mind is made up and no one can tell you anything different.

Oh dear throw teddy in the corner is it?

My dear boy, it's painfully clear that you have not understood a whit of what I've written, you are correct to give it up as a bad job. I'd suggest though that in future you be less patronising, less dismissive and far less superior in your posts. It's only because of Exiles considered post that I don't actually say what I think.

Please however take the time you spend not answering me again to reread my posts and find where I said I expected people to teach everyone with a disability. That was never my argument so perhaps it's not a surprise you've misunderstood me.

Again in deference to wiser and cooler heads than mine I shall bow out from this thread.

 

[SL4Drew]

Oh dear throw teddy in the corner is it?

My dear boy, it's painfully clear that you have not understood a whit of what I've written, you are correct to give it up as a bad job. I'd suggest though that in future you be less patronising, less dismissive and far less superior in your posts. It's only because of Exiles considered post that I don't actually say what I think.

Please however take the time you spend not answering me again to reread my posts and find where I said I expected people to teach everyone with a disability. That was never my argument so perhaps it's not a surprise you've misunderstood me.

Again in deference to wiser and cooler heads than mine I shall bow out from this thread.

How very gracious of you. I would suggest you take your own advice before dispensing the same to others.