Jr. Black Belt Test

[KempoGuy06]

I don't completely disagree with you, GBlues. That said, my first thought was to remember playing peewee football. If my peewee football coach had taught us "real football" our moms would never have let us play. We were too small, too uncoordinated and hadn't mastered the fundamentals. Trying to teach a group of 8 year olds the West Coast Offense is a somewhat ridiculous idea.

As a kid, my brother was really good at baseball. His coach loved him and convinced my parents that he was ready to step up to the next level. So, there he was, 12 years old and playing with high school kids. He had the skills and the talent, but he was 12. He was smaller than every other player in the league and didn't have the strength. He got creamed, hated it and after that season never played again.

I can't speak for others, but this is what I mean by age appropriate programs and goals. I think the specific recognition, whether it's a patch, a "jr black belt" or whatever, is arbitrary and somewhat beside the point. The program needs to be age appropriate.

While my daughter is there to learn BJJ, I have no desire nor expectation that she is learning what I'm learning. Her goals and my goals for her are completely different because she's 11. What I'm paying for when I take her to class is a fun place where she gets exercise, learns practical fundamentals and hopefully cultivates a joy for exercise in general and for BJJ specifically. That's really it.

I completely agree with you steve.

My instructor isnt dumming down the material for the kids he is just taking out certain things so they have more time to concentrate on the basics. then once they are at a higher rank and have grasped the basics then he will introduce those things back into their material.

I also do not think that kids can not learn adult material. it a proven fact that by starting kids off in a foreign language early they will grasp more of it in the same amount of time as an adult would. Kids are bright and intelligent and the fact that they have not come into their own so to speak is a blessing because they can be influenced more easily to study hard and learn to love the MA's. While I give them all this credit they still have short comings that we adults do not have such as shorter attention spans.

B

 

[jks9199]

I don't completely disagree with you, GBlues. That said, my first thought was to remember playing peewee football. If my peewee football coach had taught us "real football" our moms would never have let us play. We were too small, too uncoordinated and hadn't mastered the fundamentals. Trying to teach a group of 8 year olds the West Coast Offense is a somewhat ridiculous idea.

As a kid, my brother was really good at baseball. His coach loved him and convinced my parents that he was ready to step up to the next level. So, there he was, 12 years old and playing with high school kids. He had the skills and the talent, but he was 12. He was smaller than every other player in the league and didn't have the strength. He got creamed, hated it and after that season never played again.

I can't speak for others, but this is what I mean by age appropriate programs and goals. I think the specific recognition, whether it's a patch, a "jr black belt" or whatever, is arbitrary and somewhat beside the point. The program needs to be age appropriate.

While my daughter is there to learn BJJ, I have no desire nor expectation that she is learning what I'm learning. Her goals and my goals for her are completely different because she's 11. What I'm paying for when I take her to class is a fun place where she gets exercise, learns practical fundamentals and hopefully cultivates a joy for exercise in general and for BJJ specifically. That's really it.

Early adolescence is a complicated place to compare kids. Kids bodies and adeptness are all over the place. A kid may be notably advanced over other kids his age, but too small to compete with kids a year or two older. He almost certainly won't have the emotional development to be on par with teammates a couple of years older.

Which also is why I'm not a fan of jr. black belts, especially below age 16. By 16, most (not all! I had a high school classmate who grew the better part of a foot if not more after he got his driver's license...) kids have had their major growth spurts, and are settling into their bodies and coordination.

 

[SifuJohnson]

As I have stated in previous posts there are three basic types of schools competitive, academic and combat. Competitive schools are in it for the bling. The trophies and medals they decorate their schools and mantles with. What I see them do looks like great gymnastics and they are usually in great shape but to me what I see is unrealistic from a self-defense point of view. “See how great I am” could be the standing motto.

The academic schools teach movement and technique but many have no practical application experience. They don’t commit themselves out of fear of getting hurt I guess and though they may know theory most could not fight their way out of a paper bag. It looks to me like this young man is testing for one of these schools.

Combat oriented schools are the real deal as far as I’m concerned, but they are also schools where you can get hurt on occasion. The up side is that it produces great martial artists. The down side is that you pay a price for your knowledge and to “Joe average public” who is used to instant solutions and not much work it is not very popular.

There was a time when all schools were combat oriented but commercialization killed a lot of that. Instead of keeping to a plan that emphasized quality over quantity many instructors only wanted to cash in on something that was going to make them rich. They cut corners and promoted people before they were ready. The curriculum of many of these commercial schools these days is a joke. Karate Lite! It is no wonder so many people these days show little or no interest in learning the martial arts. Many schools these days are a joke! Instead they get into MMA thinking that is the real deal (but that is another rant).

If the young man in this test is happy I guess he got what he wanted out of the deal, but I can tell you that no student of mine will test before he or she is ready and I don’t care how old they are because you have to have standards! As a kenpo instructor I have a responsibility to make sure all my students are the best they can be. If forced to defend themselves I want them to have a fighting chance. That to me is what this is all about and I take this responsibility very seriously. Why? Because what I teach someone might be the difference between them coming home to loved ones standing or in a pine box.
Peace..out!

 

[Tez3]

I set high standards for all the children, they love to rise to them. Seriously, if they see that you believe in them, that they can do things they will rise to that every time. I expect them to do the same as the adults but I don't give them as many techniques to do. They need something to aspire to, if they learn everything at once they'll get bored.

Outside of the childrens class though we do have a 15 year old who trains MMA with us, started at 14 and has his first amateur fight next month. MMA training can be brilliant for teenage boys, they come in, train hard, get battered around a bit, do some battering, get treated as an adult and prove themselves...to themselves! He's the second lad we've taken on at 14, the other is now 20, a pro fighter, an instructor, teetotal, doesn't smoke and going for the auditions for TUF later this year. Neither of them will be blackbelts, the older has a title belt already, I fully expect in the next few years the younger one will have one too.

 

[MJS]

To answer my own question...

While I understand that a child and an adult are 2 different people, that still does not mean that a child can't have strong punches, strong stances, focus, intensity....many of the things we saw in the second set of clips that I posted.

Now the ability to do something. If we took two things, say a neutral bow stance and a jump spinning inward crescent kick. IMHO, it should not take much to be able to get into a solid stance. On the other hand, everyone has varying levels of flexibility, so I would not expect everyone to perform a kick like that.

There should also be a level of maturity. Does the child have the ability to understand the material, be able to answer some fairly detailed questions about what they're doing.

 

[SifuJohnson]

Some years ago I was invited to a school to be part of a testing board not really knowing what to expect. Upon arrival I was told by the head instructor that he had already decided that the people testing had advanced enough to qualify for advancement and that the test was just a formality. The resulting testing at all levels was dismal to say the least but all students were promoted that day. That was the last time I ever considered being on that schools testing board.
To let a student advance when they don’t have command of the basic concepts, principles and basic movements is dishonest to the student. Often times it’s reflected to even a greater degree at advanced levels.
I’m not ashamed to say I would have failed the student in the video clip even though he may have known and understood the material he was testing on. Why? Because sometimes you learn more positive things from failure then you learn from success. Any student regardless of age needs to demonstrate that they not only know what’s going on but that they have the capacity and ability to demonstrate their knowledge at the proper intensity using the correct control and power for the level they are testing. Unfortunately this kid was only going through the motions

 

[Tez3]

SifuJohnson, is that a rant against MMA per se or a rant against people who think they can just start up MMA classes without the requisite knowledge?

 

[JadeDragon3]

You were clearly not a child, and not testing for a "Junior BB".

I was 17 becuase I was in high school when I got it. And no it was not a Jr. black belt. My school didn't have such a thing. We had kids that were 14 with black sashes (not Jr. black sash) but they did everything the adults did as well. No, I take that back......the 14 year old broke boards instead of bricks/patio tiles. That was the only difference.

 

[SifuJohnson]

SifuJohnson, is that a rant against MMA per se or a rant against people who think they can just start up MMA classes without the requisite knowledge?

First it depends on what you consider Mixed Martial Arts. I teach my students that kenpo is a mixed martial art and have demonstrated this point on many occasions. However what is often thought of as MMA these days is not a self-defense system it is a brutal sport and I have mixed feelings about it.

If we are talking Jujitsu style events where there are strict rules, safety gear and limitations I see no problem with people of all ages engaging in spirited competition. However if it is geared towards what we see on TV as Extreme Fighting I have major concerns about anyone under 18 being involved. The damage these people do to each other is too much for kids who are still in the process of developing and can do permanent harm to even those in the best of shape.

What they call MMA these days would not work on the street for most people. It may work nicely when you are equal in strength or stronger, just as big or bigger and it is a one on one situation. Even the best MMA fighter has his work cut out for him in a multiple attacker situation. Now you can say look at all the kenpo fighters that have been beat up in matches with MMA people but to me it is an apples and oranges sort of thing in that the kenpo people always have to fight the MMA fighters fight and play by the MMA fighters rules. In the street there are no rules and referee to stop things when they get out of hand. I have often thought it would be interesting to see someone like Joe Lewis in his prime or Bruce Lee against some of these folks but that is just a thought I get once and awhile when I’m bored.

What I see on TV reminds me more of professional wrestling than a martial arts competition. Not since the days of the WWF have I seen so many over developed gladiators banging heads and twisting their opponents into arm locks and choke holds. About the only thing we haven’t seen yet is masks and cage matches but don’t fret I’m sure it won’t be long. Sorry Hulkster but you’ll need to hide the folding chairs and watch out for “foreign objects” because big money has finally found the latest payday and almost everyone (except me) seems to have bought completely into it. LOL

No really if what they call MMA these days is your thing and you don’t mind the liabilities involved knock yourself out. I’ll stick with my tired old (and very effective) kenpo and we will both be happy.
Peace…out!

 

[Twin Fist]

i do not teach kids any differently than the adults

however, no one under 16 is EVER getting an adult black belt from me.

not gonna happen, no way no how

Jr black has the same standards as adult black. But any junior black is junior in rank to any adult black. At 16 they test again for adult black.

 

[SL4Drew]

If the young man in this test is happy I guess he got what he wanted out of the deal, but I can tell you that no student of mine will test before he or she is ready and I don’t care how old they are because you have to have standards! As a kenpo instructor I have a responsibility to make sure all my students are the best they can be. If forced to defend themselves I want them to have a fighting chance. That to me is what this is all about and I take this responsibility very seriously. Why? Because what I teach someone might be the difference between them coming home to loved ones standing or in a pine box.
Peace..out!

I don't think I disagree with you, if I taught kids I would demand a lot out of them. But when it comes to kids as young as the boy in the video, who does he need a fighting chance against? If we are talking a 10 year vs. a grown man intent on hurting him, I am not sure there are many 10 year olds that could take on the guy and win. And those that can probably aren't looking to start in the martial arts.

 

[Tez3]

First it depends on what you consider Mixed Martial Arts. I teach my students that kenpo is a mixed martial art and have demonstrated this point on many occasions. However what is often thought of as MMA these days is not a self-defense system it is a brutal sport and I have mixed feelings about it.

If we are talking Jujitsu style events where there are strict rules, safety gear and limitations I see no problem with people of all ages engaging in spirited competition. However if it is geared towards what we see on TV as Extreme Fighting I have major concerns about anyone under 18 being involved. The damage these people do to each other is too much for kids who are still in the process of developing and can do permanent harm to even those in the best of shape.

What they call MMA these days would not work on the street for most people. It may work nicely when you are equal in strength or stronger, just as big or bigger and it is a one on one situation. Even the best MMA fighter has his work cut out for him in a multiple attacker situation. Now you can say look at all the kenpo fighters that have been beat up in matches with MMA people but to me it is an apples and oranges sort of thing in that the kenpo people always have to fight the MMA fighters fight and play by the MMA fighters rules. In the street there are no rules and referee to stop things when they get out of hand. I have often thought it would be interesting to see someone like Joe Lewis in his prime or Bruce Lee against some of these folks but that is just a thought I get once and awhile when I’m bored.

What I see on TV reminds me more of professional wrestling than a martial arts competition. Not since the days of the WWF have I seen so many over developed gladiators banging heads and twisting their opponents into arm locks and choke holds. About the only thing we haven’t seen yet is masks and cage matches but don’t fret I’m sure it won’t be long. Sorry Hulkster but you’ll need to hide the folding chairs and watch out for “foreign objects” because big money has finally found the latest payday and almost everyone (except me) seems to have bought completely into it. LOL

No really if what they call MMA these days is your thing and you don’t mind the liabilities involved knock yourself out. I’ll stick with my tired old (and very effective) kenpo and we will both be happy.
Peace…out!

I think you have many misconceptions of MMA based on what you see on US television. Firstly it's a sport, here in the UK we treat it as such, we train SD differently. It's less violent than many sports such as American football, ice hockey and rugby. it' merely full contact martial arts and it frankly upsets me that people have the wrong image of it. You are judging it purely from a couple of promotions who are out to make money. Here we don't make money from it, if we had I could have come across to America for the last two Meet and Greet instead of ploughing my hard earned savings into shows.

MMA fighters here are for the most part tradtionally trained, TKD, karate, MT and Judo etc. The MMa fights are a game of physical chess, great fun to watch. brutal no and theres no reason for teenagers not to be involved, they fight amateur rules, no head shots standing or on the ground plus locks aren't put on fully. safer then than many TKD, karate and Judo comps.

Please don't condemn the sport just because of the UFC, take a look at what we do and see what MMA really is.

 

[GBlues]

i do not teach kids any differently than the adults

however, no one under 16 is EVER getting an adult black belt from me.

not gonna happen, no way no how

Jr black has the same standards as adult black. But any junior black is junior in rank to any adult black. At 16 they test again for adult black.

Why? If your teaching, and there learning the same material, why not? Even if it's called jr. bb, why make them test at 16 again for a bb that they have already earned? Is it 2nd degree, or only first? If it's a first degree, they have already earned it when they tested as a child. THey met your standards at say 14, so why make them test again, for what they have already earned? Do you charge them to take this test a second time around? or is it a free test?

 

[Twin Fist]

because BB is not just a test of SKILLS, it is a test of maturity and of mindset

the mindset of a child is not that of an adult.

For example, I have ONE 6 year old right now. I have already told his parents that it will take him at LEAST 6 years for BB, and even then, it will be a junior bb, till 16 when he will have to test again for adult BB.

average time for BB is 4 1/2 years

it will take him at least 6 because he is still growing, his balance and co-ordination are constantly changing. So he will learn slower.

I dont give BB's to children. Kids get Junior BB till 16

if more people did that, the martial arts would still be respected

my instructor promotes to BB at whatever age, and lets then get thier 2nd, 3rd, whatever.

I disagree with this practice.

every 10 yr old BB makes us all look silly

 

[Doc]

All of my rank test have a minimum of 30 essay questions. No true/false, no multiple choice. Black belt includes all of the previous written questions plus an additional 200. For a child to get a black belt from me, he would not only need the physical skills, but the intellectual maturity to inculcate the academic material.

 

[Tez3]

All of my rank test have a minimum of 30 essay questions. No true/false, no multiple choice. Black belt includes all of the previous written questions plus an additional 200. For a child to get a black belt from me, he would not only need the physical skills, but the intellectual maturity to inculcate the academic material.

What do you do in the case of dyslexia? I actually know children who'd find the academic bit far easier than the physical part, I've never felt that academic tests proved a lot other than the ability to pass tests.
I was watching Supernanny in America this evening and she was with two marine biologists in Hawaii, lovely people, both had their doctorates and not an ounce of common sense between them. They couldn't even potty train their children.

 

[Doc]

What do you do in the case of dyslexia?

I don't accept them.

I actually know children who'd find the academic bit far easier than the physical part, I've never felt that academic tests proved a lot other than the ability to pass tests.

While academic testing is not an indicator of the ability to perform, academic tests in conjunction with physical performance examination is the best indicator available in any activity. Most tests ate multiple choice, true/false which provides the answer, and then allows you to guess. Essay examinations force you to express your own understanding of the material.

 

[hongkongfooey]

There is another option: Have higher levels of Jr. Blackbelt that can be attained.

Nah, not a good Idea. This is Kenpo were talking about here. Before you know it we'll have a self promoted, preteen, 10th degree Jr. Blackbelt running around.

 

[stickarts]

There is another option: Have higher levels of Jr. Blackbelt that can be attained.

Nah, not a good Idea. This is Kenpo were talking about here. Before you know it we'll have a self promoted, preteen, 10th degree Jr. Blackbelt running around.

Not on my watch (at my school)

 

[GBlues]

because BB is not just a test of SKILLS, it is a test of maturity and of mindset

the mindset of a child is not that of an adult.

For example, I have ONE 6 year old right now. I have already told his parents that it will take him at LEAST 6 years for BB, and even then, it will be a junior bb, till 16 when he will have to test again for adult BB.

average time for BB is 4 1/2 years

it will take him at least 6 because he is still growing, his balance and co-ordination are constantly changing. So he will learn slower.

I dont give BB's to children. Kids get Junior BB till 16

if more people did that, the martial arts would still be respected

my instructor promotes to BB at whatever age, and lets then get thier 2nd, 3rd, whatever.

I disagree with this practice.

every 10 yr old BB makes us all look silly

I'm going to have to disagree with you about children learning slower. I don't care what your reasons are to say this. Your flat wrong. When your young your mind is like a sponge, it can absorg alot of things, because it's never gotten wet yet. That is just utter non-sense. Reality is you shouldn't be teaching children. I noticed you didn't answer the question about charging them for there 1st adult black belt. Why is that?

Furthermore your assumption that bb is more than just skills it is a test of maturity and mindset. I will have to disagree with you on that. IF you don't know the maturity level and mindset of your student after 6 years, you shouldn't be teaching, or you should start thinking about smaller classes so you can get a little more in depth with your students. THey shouldn't be testing even for a jr.bb if they don't have that mindset or the maturity level. THat is not teaching them the same thing as the adults. That is again a dumbing down of the art. I believe it has been said by many martial artists, that the martial arts are 90% mental and 10% physical. That is not holding them to the same standards as the adults. I just don't get it.

Now, children bb's are not why the martial arts get a bad rap. It's because they get there bb and they are not prepared to defend themselves. THe first confrontation they get into they get the snot kicked out of them, well that to a lot people says quite a bit about a martial art. They aren't properly trained. Why? Because it was more valuable to the instructor to collect $65 bucks a month and charge for the tests, and just give out belt rankings than it was to teach. That's the reality. If you train them to defend themselves for real, they will do it, and probably better than most adults. I would go so far as to say it isn't that 1000's of children around the world need a confidence booster for why they join martial arts studios. I would say it probably has more to do with, mom and dad are tired of little johnny coming home with a black eye, having not eaten all day because he got his lunch money stolen. NOw I'm done with this rant, please don't take offense. I just call it like I see it, ( or read it.). On to my next issue.

Essay questions??? THey show the understanding the student has of the art??? Again 5-6 years is a long time to spend teaching somebody something. You should know if he has an understanding of the material before he tests. That's why your the instructor and he's the student. If he doesn't you shouldn't let him test. It's beyond me. Why does it seem to me that everybody that is an instructor here feels like they have to make these tests as hard as they can possibly make them? I realize they are supposed to be hard, but my god man. How hard does it have to be? I mean I hear stories of guys that have to run 5 miles, do 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, do all of there kata's from white belt to black, spar, and then maybe they'll pass. Unless your in the military is it necassary to run a freaking marathon before you show what you can do? "Well, they have to show they can perform under a high-stress situation." Do you train them that way? Make them do all of those things before class starts? If not why? You know these are the questions that I ask myself when I hear these things. If your going to do that, why not just learn and then teach Krav Maga you know? Alright I'm sorry guys my rant is over.