Jr. Black Belt Test

[KempoShaun]

Stances lad, stances!!! If they had a good solid foundation, even with the lack of power, this would look 10x better, let me tell you, I have some junior black belts (they wear a different belt from regular black belts) but they need to perform to the same standards and understand the same concepts of things such as stances, weapon placement (body or foreign object) and moving in a way to generate power, then, when they are 16, they have the option of testing for an adult Shodan, but this... I don't even know where to begin... I, myself, was a Junior Black Belt at age 8, as my dad own/ran the school, but personally, I have huge problems with these junior black belts today. It seems like as the money goes up, the training goes down... Sad

 

[terryl965]

The bottom line is simple here, the youngman was not held to any kind of standerds what so ever. It is not the child fault but the instructor which allowed this to happen. I can only add that when people see this and go oh my god that kids is terible, what should be said is my god how bad of an instructod id thid to let this happen? Remember the young man is doing what the school owner is asking and accepting, so do not blame the child.

 

[KempoGuy06]

The bottom line is simple here, the youngman was not held to any kind of standerds what so ever. It is not the child fault but the instructor which allowed this to happen. I can only add that when people see this and go oh my god that kids is terible, what should be said is my god how bad of an instructod id thid to let this happen? Remember the young man is doing what the school owner is asking and accepting, so do not blame the child.

very good point terry and you couldnt be more correct. its the same in college sports, when a team is terrible the players arent kicked off...the coach is fired, same concept applies here. what frightens me the most is what will happen to this kid should he need to use his training in real life.

B

 

[MJS]

I suppose that this brings up another question, one of which has been debated in the past....the use of a Jr. BB. The Jr. BB, IMHO, is used to fill in the gap, so to speak, most likely due to the childs age. So, you have a kid who starts at 4. By the time he's, lets say 11, he's ready to test, so he gets a Jr. Black Belt and once he reaches a certain age, he'll test for the full black belt.

If parents complain about little Johnny not keeping up with the Jones', they'll certainly complain about not testing for a full BB. So, the kid sits at Jr. level for the next 5yrs? I highly doubt that would fly well. Of course, usually during that time, the child learns the rest of the material that he didn't get before. I say this, because usually the childrens material is condensed from what the adults would learn. So, technically, its as if the child is starting from ground zero again.

So, the school owner has a few choices to pick from. They can:

1) just give the 11yr old a full black belt.

2) use the Jr. BB and once the child reaches a certain age, test for full BB.

3) not accept kids under a certain age. Of course, this idea runs the risk of failing because if the school is the bread and butter for the owner, not having kids...well, we all know what'll happen.

 

[MJS]

very good point terry and you couldnt be more correct. its the same in college sports, when a team is terrible the players arent kicked off...the coach is fired, same concept applies here. what frightens me the most is what will happen to this kid should he need to use his training in real life.

B

With all of the things parents find to complain about, imagine little Johnny getting his rear kicked, and the parents complain because they invested X number of dollars and X number of years, only to have that training go down the drain. Of course, we all know that while training should give us the edge, it doesn't put an S on our chest, however, I'd be willing to bet that a good majority of the parents won't understand that. I mean really, if they can't understand the fact that Johnny doesn't deserve a new belt, they'll certainly not understand the other.

 

[KempoGuy06]

I suppose that this brings up another question, one of which has been debated in the past....the use of a Jr. BB. The Jr. BB, IMHO, is used to fill in the gap, so to speak, most likely due to the childs age. So, you have a kid who starts at 4. By the time he's, lets say 11, he's ready to test, so he gets a Jr. Black Belt and once he reaches a certain age, he'll test for the full black belt.

If parents complain about little Johnny not keeping up with the Jones', they'll certainly complain about not testing for a full BB. So, the kid sits at Jr. level for the next 5yrs? I highly doubt that would fly well. Of course, usually during that time, the child learns the rest of the material that he didn't get before. I say this, because usually the childrens material is condensed from what the adults would learn. So, technically, its as if the child is starting from ground zero again.

So, the school owner has a few choices to pick from. They can:

1) just give the 11yr old a full black belt.

2) use the Jr. BB and once the child reaches a certain age, test for full BB.

3) not accept kids under a certain age. Of course, this idea runs the risk of failing because if the school is the bread and butter for the owner, not having kids...well, we all know what'll happen.

That is a great point. The choices you listed are really the only one except for the instructor to flat refuse to have a Jr. BB and only allow kids to test for a full BB above the age of 16.

1.) this in my opinion is absurd. How could a kid with a BB honestly defend him self against a kid at 16 who is larger. Yes he knows where to strike and how but still 5 years is a big difference at those ages not like 21 - 26. Even 16 is a big difference than 18 but the gap is much more narrow.

2.) I dont like this idea because it seems like a money game to me but if you need it to keep the kids around but do it in the right way than Im not against it completely.

3.) This is not a good like you said if the school is the bread and butter for the instructor. Plus a lot of kids need MA's in their life.

Honestly I think it should be said up front that kids will not be able to test for BB until the age of 16 and only if the instructor decides he or she is ready. After 18 they can test if they want when the instruct has set a date for a BB test.

B

 

[KempoGuy06]

With all of the things parents find to complain about, imagine little Johnny getting his rear kicked, and the parents complain because they invested X number of dollars and X number of years, only to have that training go down the drain. Of course, we all know that while training should give us the edge, it doesn't put an S on our chest, however, I'd be willing to bet that a good majority of the parents won't understand that. I mean really, if they can't understand the fact that Johnny doesn't deserve a new belt, they'll certainly not understand the other.

Completely agree. Its the same attitude with anyone not actually training in the MA's. They think just because we do what we do and know what we know that we can handle any situation. Parents see the belt as a sense of security and it is a false one.

B

 

[stickarts]

I suppose that this brings up another question, one of which has been debated in the past....the use of a Jr. BB. The Jr. BB, IMHO, is used to fill in the gap, so to speak, most likely due to the childs age. So, you have a kid who starts at 4. By the time he's, lets say 11, he's ready to test, so he gets a Jr. Black Belt and once he reaches a certain age, he'll test for the full black belt.

If parents complain about little Johnny not keeping up with the Jones', they'll certainly complain about not testing for a full BB. So, the kid sits at Jr. level for the next 5yrs? I highly doubt that would fly well. Of course, usually during that time, the child learns the rest of the material that he didn't get before. I say this, because usually the childrens material is condensed from what the adults would learn. So, technically, its as if the child is starting from ground zero again.

So, the school owner has a few choices to pick from. They can:

1) just give the 11yr old a full black belt.

2) use the Jr. BB and once the child reaches a certain age, test for full BB.

3) not accept kids under a certain age. Of course, this idea runs the risk of failing because if the school is the bread and butter for the owner, not having kids...well, we all know what'll happen.

There is another option: Have higher levels of Jr. Blackbelt that can be attained.
Once a child reaches a certain age, they may be eligible to test for full BB, but that doesn't mean that they have to. They shouldn't test until they are ready regardless of what the minimum age requirement is at a given school. Just my 2 cents.
You can slice and dice the various ranks in different ways, but the bottom line is to keep students learning, progressing, and motivated. Whatever method of grading can make that happen, to me , is good. The person makes the rank, the rank doesn't make the person. I have found that the students, and parents, that are there for the right reasons stick around. Those that aren't there for the right reasons don't usually make it to advanced levels anyway. It hasn't been an issue for us.

 

[Mark L]

It's easy for people that have had no experience working with kids to shoot down what they are doing. How about we first take on the mountain of adults doing crap, instead of mugging little Johnny who has no reason to know any better?

I've been teaching and assisting in kids classes since the mid '80s. I stand by my characterization of "pathetic", but to be perfectly clear, the responsibility for the patheticness of that childs performance is the instructor.

...

Regarding the black belt, I don't think it matters what you award them so long as you give them some recognition. My broader point was the expectation of the parents and the child are such, they expect to be able to earn a "black belt." If you don't offer it, they'll probably think your instruction is lacking and go down the street. Fine, if you don't care. But can you keep the lights on? On the other hand, I offered suggestions of how to meet the expectation of getting the "black belt" but done in a way to not further corrupt the art. If you can sell a read belt or a white belt with black stripes--great. I like it even better. But until the TKD school down the way stops giving away black belts like candy to 8 year olds, you are going to have a devil of a time competing with them. In a market where Joe School Owner has to offer a "black belt" I am not going to flatly deny him that.

That's absolutely your right. For me, the action of awarding any rank, including black belt, comes with the responsibility for maintaining its' standard. I didn't see that in the video, but I guess that instructor is satisfied with that level of performance at that rank. My opinion based on what I saw, is that the level of skill demonstrated by that child is inconsistent with black belt. The result? When it becomes pervasive? Corrupting the art.

And I never made a blanket statement, I said 'probably the school.' Hardly an unqualified blanket statement.

You also said:

... you won't have a kids program (...) very long.

That sounds like an unqualified blanket statement to me. Whatever ...

In my experience, in my area, most school owners can't support his entire family on teaching adults. It's hard enough for the schools that teach children to make it. For five years I worked at a martial arts supply store, and I spoke to school owners everyday. I also ran a commercial school for a bit. I standby what I said, and I will say it again if need be.

Well that's your experience, not everyones. I live in a small town, not a single stop light, and there are two thriving schools that have been around for decades, run full time and supporting their owners. One gives Jr BB, the other doesn't. If I just go on my experience, I could say that having a kids program will result in a long standing, successful school. But that would be foolish.

 

[SL4Drew]

That sounds like an unqualified blanket statement to me. Whatever ...

You can't quote me, disagree, and then say 'whatever' like that's it--argument over. I suggest you also take exception to MJS "Of course, this idea runs the risk of failing because if the school is the bread and butter for the owner, not having kids...well, we all know what'll happen." And to KenpoGuy6 "3.) This is not a good like you said if the school is the bread and butter for the instructor. Plus a lot of kids need MA's in their life."

Maybe your are correct with regard to your one-horse town. I grew up in one, and I could see how that may work out. But as this forum cannot adequately represent a thousand little microcosms, I was making a broader more general point. I haven't been everywhere, talking to everyone, but until there is a large aggregation of data suggests that my conclusions are erroneous I am very confident in what I said.

Well that's your experience, not everyones. I live in a small town, not a single stop light, and there are two thriving schools that have been around for decades, run full time and supporting their owners. One gives Jr BB, the other doesn't. If I just go on my experience, I could say that having a kids program will result in a long standing, successful school. But that would be foolish.

I have been in and around the martial arts since a child and all my adult life. I said I ran a school, and essentially ran a martial arts supply store. I live in a large metro area with urban, suburban, and rural schools. Sure it's my opinion, but I'd say it is better informed than yours appears to be--whether you think it is foolish or not.

To clarify: I submit that the guy that can have a large enough student base to teach martial arts full time and support a family, is going to have difficulty competing for kids if there is no "junior black belt." Are there guys in the situation that can make this work? Sure. But they are small in number. And again let me re-state I am not necessarily in favor of awarding such belts, I am just not going to say that the guy that needs to is a bad instructor simply for awarding a junior black belt.

 

[Doc]

It can be done, but as stated, everything must be age appropriate, and its a lot of hard work. Mr. Parker didn't believe in junior black belts and set his personal age at 16. I remember Rick Carthew received his at the old Santa Monica School, and ended up fighting on the IKKA Team at that age. I raised it to 17 when I wrote the rules for the IKC. He knew that kids would overwhelm the business and assigned me the task of creating a way to deal with it, without corrupting adult ranks as a thesis project.

I developed a "cellular" approach that separated all ranks for him, and their associated curriculum by age. In my own experiments running "youth programs" I found with all ranks, but the young in particular, it doesn't matter what they wear around the waist as long as all their peers receive the same, under the same guidelines.

With this in mind I created a kids program, and a youth program with age appropriate material for each, and unique accouterment adornment rank belts. I also made provisions for age crossovers, where a child might be months away from a "crossover age point" when they begin the program. The adult program, 17 years and up, remained essentially unchanged.

Mr. Parker did have one proviso. While he suggested the kids black belt should be "available" for marketing purposes, he essentially wanted it to be unattainable by structure to all but the truly rare, (and he stressed rare), exceptional kid.

 

[Mark L]

You can't quote me, disagree, and then say 'whatever' like that's it--argument over.

Yes, I can. You made a blanket statement, with a parenthetical probably, and are using that to rebut being called on it. The "whatever" is 'cause I don't really care to argue with you. But I won't let you tell me what I can and can't do on these forums. I'm making every effort to conduct a polite argument on the topic, without attacking the arguers. Maybe you could do the same, perhaps starting with the assumptions you're making about fellow posters here.

I suggest you also take exception to MJS "Of course, this idea runs the risk of failing because if the school is the bread and butter for the owner, not having kids...well, we all know what'll happen."

I suggest you decide what you'll post, and I'll decide what I post, OK?

Maybe your are correct with regard to your one-horse town. I grew up in one, and I could see how that may work out. But as this forum cannot adequately represent a thousand little microcosms, I was making a broader more general point. I haven't been everywhere, talking to everyone, but until there is a large aggregation of data suggests that my conclusions are erroneous I am very confident in what I said.

I'm not suggesting your conclusions are erroneous, only that the support for them is just as anecdotal as mine, not really justifying a conclusion at all, particularly a broad one.

I have been in and around the martial arts since a child and all my adult life. I said I ran a school, and essentially ran a martial arts supply store. I live in a large metro area with urban, suburban, and rural schools. Sure it's my opinion, but I'd say it is better informed than yours appears to be--whether you think it is foolish or not.

You know nothing of my history or experience, and yet you'd say you are better informed? That is arrogant and foolish. That is why all of my future responses to you will be "whatever".

To clarify: I submit that the guy that can have a large enough student base to teach martial arts full time and support a family, is going to have difficulty competing for kids if there is no "junior black belt." Are there guys in the situation that can make this work? Sure. But they are small in number.

Without hard data this is speculation, my "one horse town" is 2 for 2 in this regard (I submit that this sample size is way to small to draw any conclusions).

And again let me re-state I am not necessarily in favor of awarding such belts, I am just not going to say that the guy that needs to is a bad instructor simply for awarding a junior black belt.

I haven't said anything against awarding Jr. BB. The bad instructor tag goes to those that make such awards without merit, in my opinion, evidenced by the video.

 

[thetruth]

When I did kenpo and graded to purple I had to be able to pull off the techniques at pretty much full speed and the attacks were hard so if I missed I got punched in the face and if I was grabbed and didn't execute a technique properly they didn't let go. Those attacks were absolute rubbish and someone of that level should have the control etc to do them a heel of a lot faster than that.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Tez3]

I'll admit it is hard to draw a bright line. As I said, some "commercial" schools can be traditional. Let me also add (in case this didn't come through) no one should teach kids if they don't want to.



Now that's the real problem. Many years ago when I was an assistant instructor I told a parent that same thing (nicer of course), he got mad, explained to me that he was paying for his kid to come here (not sure how that mattered), and I never taught that kid again--someone else did. To me, this was an example of how 'commercialization' at all levels and ages can be bad. Not only to have to have the guts to tell this guy to keep his money, but you also have to not need it (or be willing to go without).[/quote]


When you have parents you will have problems whether you are a commercial school or one that teaches for free because you can afford to. Some parents think their child is perfect and must never be criticised by anyone, it's as simple as that.
If you are charging someone the onus on you is to provide value for money, perhaps thats all this parent wanted? perhaps this child wasn't bad but wasn't being taught properly and thats why the father complained, unfair on you? Perhaps but your story doesn't prove commercialisation is bad, it just proves we've only heard one side of the story.

 

[terryl965]

Tez3 is right some parents see there little Johnny as perfect and must be the best all the time. When you correct or somebody in the school does a little better mommy is mad and upset. So the school owner does what they must to make eveeryone happy.

 

[SL4Drew]

Yes, I can. You made a blanket statement, with a parenthetical probably, and are using that to rebut being called on it. The "whatever" is 'cause I don't really care to argue with you. But I won't let you tell me what I can and can't do on these forums. I'm making every effort to conduct a polite argument on the topic, without attacking the arguers. Maybe you could do the same, perhaps starting with the assumptions you're making about fellow posters here.
I suggest you decide what you'll post, and I'll decide what I post, OK?

I'm not suggesting your conclusions are erroneous, only that the support for them is just as anecdotal as mine, not really justifying a conclusion at all, particularly a broad one.


You know nothing of my history or experience, and yet you'd say you are better informed? That is arrogant and foolish. That is why all of my future responses to you will be "whatever".

Without hard data this is speculation, my "one horse town" is 2 for 2 in this regard (I submit that this sample size is way to small to draw any conclusions).
I haven't said anything against awarding Jr. BB. The bad instructor tag goes to those that make such awards without merit, in my opinion, evidenced by the video.

A whole lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing.

So far you disagree with me, try to refute my assertions as 'mere opinon', and use rheotric to attack me--rather than discuss the issue at hand, sir. I explained my experience, why I reached the conclusion I did, and clarified why I made the statements I did. Sir, so far you have offered very little substantively. What little you have said, I accurately charaterized and then refuted. You may not like my choice of metaphors, but based on what you stated, I can't see that it was inaccurate. And yes based on what you have chosen to share, yes I'd trust my own experiences and judgments over yours. Now, if you share with us that you are an expert or have other relevant qualifications I will certainly reconsider.

I am not trying to attack you, sir. The simple fact is you and I seem to have a disagreement. You seem to feel passionately about your opinion, but I am asking you to do more than 'feel' your opinionrhetoriccharacterizedopinion, explain it to me rationally.

So to restate my position: When an instructor seeks to carry on full-time as a martial arts instructor and be successful enough to support a family, it will in all likelihood require teaching children and offering a 'junior black belt' to be competitive. I will acknowledge that in a non-competitive environment this may not be true. But I kind of thought that went without saying.

 

[KempoGuy06]

So to restate my position: When an instructor seeks to carry on full-time as a martial arts instructor and be successful enough to support a family, it will in all likelihood require teaching children and offering a 'junior black belt' to be competitive. I will acknowledge that in a non-competitive environment this may not be true. But I kind of thought that went without saying.

I can agree with that somewhat. In a smaller city it would almost seem imperative that you offer both, in a city such as mine there is no need. The only schools that offer both kids program and jr BB's are...well...lets just say they arent up to scratch with some of the standards Im sure people want on this board. My instructor has 1 school, teaches kids and offers no Jr BB....he is doing fine. I like in Louisville KY by the way, as population goes we are the 16th largest city in the country as for the MA market I dont know where we are but it does seem to be growing.

B

 

[SL4Drew]

When you have parents you will have problems whether you are a commercial school or one that teaches for free because you can afford to. Some parents think their child is perfect and must never be criticized by anyone, it's as simple as that.
If you are charging someone the onus on you is to provide value for money, perhaps thats all this parent wanted? perhaps this child wasn't bad but wasn't being taught properly and thats why the father complained, unfair on you? Perhaps but your story doesn't prove commercialisation is bad, it just proves we've only heard one side of the story.

Throw a pebble...start an avalanche. I hadn't a clue what a touchy subject this was.

A lot of people seem to be projecting their thoughts, emotions, and experience into their reading of what I am saying. I didn't say commercialization is necessarily a bad thing. Most of us wouldn't be here to have this discussion if the martial arts hadn't been commercialized. Whether traditional or commercial, each has its own problems to grapple with.

I think everyone that has posted here so far isn't pleased with the way children are currently dealt with in the martial arts. But things are the way they are because, at a minimum, they were one time functional. Private lessons, cardio karate, black belt clubs, junior blackbelts, and kids ages 5 and up all exist in martial arts for a reason. I submit to you they exist because they are all commercially successful to one degree or another. If these things didn't work in the marketplace, they would have almost certainly never gained traction.

We can all gnash our teeth and render our clothes, but so long as these things are successful marketing tools they aren't going away. The cardio karate fad is largely gone, but I remember when everyone and their brother was doing it. But the others remain because they tend to work and make money. In the real world, if your competitor offers something you don't that the consumer values, won't the customers usually go to the competitor? And if you aren't being competitive, you really aren't commercial.

My overall point was that in a competitive marketplace, a school owner may have to employ some or all of these marketing tools. Consider that there are three commercial schools trying to compete for roughly the same number of students. Sure, there are plenty of intangibles that go into the decision a prospective student makes, and as a school owner you try to control for those. But at the end of the day the bigger, more successful school usually employs some combination of the marketing tools I described above. Does this fact make the program or the instructor sub-standard? I'd say not necessarily.

 

[SL4Drew]

I can agree with that somewhat. In a smaller city it would almost seem imperative that you offer both, in a city such as mine there is no need. The only schools that offer both kids program and jr BB's are...well...lets just say they arent up to scratch with some of the standards Im sure people want on this board. My instructor has 1 school, teaches kids and offers no Jr BB....he is doing fine. I like in Louisville KY by the way, as population goes we are the 16th largest city in the country as for the MA market I dont know where we are but it does seem to be growing.

B

I think you and I agree far more than we disagree. Thank you for your perspective, sir.

Does your school offer a "black belt substitute" for juniors? I've heard from a few people that suggest that is a good solution for them.

 

[KempoGuy06]

Throw a pebble...start an avalanche. I hadn't a clue what a touchy subject this was.

A lot of people seem to be projecting their thoughts, emotions, and experience into their reading of what I am saying. I didn't say commercialization is necessarily a bad thing. Most of us wouldn't be here to have this discussion if the martial arts hadn't been commercialized. Whether traditional or commercial, each has its own problems to grapple with.

I think everyone that has posted here so far isn't pleased with the way children are currently dealt with in the martial arts. But things are the way they are because, at a minimum, they were one time functional. Private lessons, cardio karate, black belt clubs, junior blackbelts, and kids ages 5 and up all exist in martial arts for a reason. I submit to you they exist because they are all commercially successful to one degree or another. If these things didn't work in the marketplace, they would have almost certainly never gained traction.

We can all gnash our teeth and render our clothes, but so long as these things are successful marketing tools they aren't going away. The cardio karate fad is largely gone, but I remember when everyone and their brother was doing it. But the others remain because they tend to work and make money. In the real world, if your competitor offers something you don't that the consumer values, won't the customers usually go to the competitor? And if you aren't being competitive, you really aren't commercial.

My overall point was that in a competitive marketplace, a school owner may have to employ some or all of these marketing tools. Consider that there are three commercial schools trying to compete for roughly the same number of students. Sure, there are plenty of intangibles that go into the decision a prospective student makes, and as a school owner you try to control for those. But at the end of the day the bigger, more successful school usually employs some combination of the marketing tools I described above. Does this fact make the program or the instructor sub-standard? I'd say not necessarily.

we do agree on a lot of things. I think the problem most people have is that at first it appeared as if you were stating that the only way to be successful was to use these tactics. With saying that it also seemed as if you were making an unsaid statement that successful meant the amount of money coming in as opposed to the amount of quality going out. You argued your point very well and now its obvious that you are merely saying that to have a school with a large enough income to support itself, quality taken out of the equation, that you need to employ 1 or more of said tactics.

is this a fair and correct assumption?

I think you and I agree far more than we disagree. Thank you for your perspective, sir.

Does your school offer a "black belt substitute" for juniors? I've heard from a few people that suggest that is a good solution for them.

as far as i know, no it does not. you test for BB after 16 if the instructor thinks you are ready and after 18 if you feel you are ready. But again the kids class is much slowed paced....sorta. I say that because they progress faster rank wise but as they move up the belts material from the adult program is added in slowly...BB standards are the same if you 16 or 66 with regard to physical limitations

B