Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[TSDTexan]

I am confused.we are looking for a traditional guy to flog Joe rogan and we didn't pick an Andy hug or Sam Greco or something.


So who did he fight to validate his karate works. Or is he just a tough guy who happens to do karate.

Bwahaha.
/sigh.

You are more than welcome to go to okinawa and call him out. Dont be surprised if one of his students whip the snot outta ya first and then admit they themselves are not ready to tackle the Grandmaster of his organization.

He is a tough guy made tough by doing his father's karate.

I dont see a lot of TMA critics flying out to Okinawa to actually test the Karate schools. In the old days, it was surprisingly common for a teacher to get challenged.
If you won the teach usually would retire.
If you lost... you would become his student.

Some schools honor od ways.

 

[renc]

Ah. Okay. So, you do agree that McDojos are bad. So does Joe rogan.

We can all agree that McDojos are bad, I can, you can, Joe Rogan can, a marginally introspective chicken can, it's like the evil twin of motherhood and apple pie.
If that's all Joe Rogan were saying, there wouldn't be a discussion.
The point for Joe Rogan is ... if you're saying that McDojos are bad, then say that McDojos are bad and *don't* over-generalize (stereotype) to 'Kung Fu'... hundreds of martial art systems, thousands of clubs and millions of practitioners.
That's sloppy communication. Sloppy communication drives sloppy thought drives sloppy action.
Like not recovering the hip from kicks.
Joe Rogan misidentifies the problem. Wrong problem wrong solution. Then I doubt that McDojo-ism is his driving concern.

Joe Rogan and his pal Nic Gregoriades trade in stereotypes. Repeatedly from their soap boxes. These aren't one-off casual remarks.
They poison the well for newcomers.

If McDojos and training methods are open for criticism, so are Joe and Nic for their repeated public comments.
If martial arts are to be held to a high standard, so *must* communication about martial arts.

A common theme I hear in MMA circles is 'science' / 'empiricism'. I like the idea. I admire Drop Bears' approach to his training. It's a positive can-do attitude. It's also *fun*.

I think Rogan subscribes to this idea of doing science when he talks of MMA as "the science of fighting". He also styles himself as a scientific skeptic on a number of issues.

An empirical approach to your own training is relatively easy to accomplish. An empirical comparison between techniques -> training methods -> principles -> martial arts systems is increasingly difficult.

A central claim made by Joe Rogan is 'effectiveness'. I have yet to see Joe Rogan define effectiveness in a way that is measurable, that we can at least in theory put numbers to. So the problem is ill defined. So we are not doing science yet. So Joe talking in no uncertain terms is hubris.

Science is a high bar.

Rogan's hypothesis is that 'Kung Fu' are stuffed with sub-optimal techniques as a result of not sparring, and his evidence is an illogical claim about the effectiveness of a backfist vs an overhand right and talking of the effectiveness of a technique (monkey fist) which he isn't sure exists (!) Not rigorous and not scientific. Plenty of shaky assumptions there too.

Science has peer review which is a low pass filter on communications. The internets by comparison has no filter and no marginal competence. Bad ideas infects minds and spreads through and changes cultures. The same tired old discredited themes recirculate instead of dying out.

"It's that it doesn't work on the right people, you can probably knock on an 86 year old grandmother with the white crane dancing tiger technique" - Nicolas Gregoriades

"If you look at some of those more ridiculous martial arts [...] without fail, every single 45 year old plus traditional martial artist is the one who's got a slouch and a beer belly and you can see he hasn't done a pushup for like fifteen years" - Nicolas Gregoriades

Hyperbole, ridicule and stereotype. Rhetorical devices, not good communication. Not scientific nor productive.

 

[Hanzou]

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The trouble is, then, we see some many, many TM Artist's present these 'pretty' demos. Then, go into full contact competitions & fight like kick boxers, often sloppy ones @ that. Get their lights punched out.
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We don't know if the pretty-demo karate practitioners can do real karate until they either do it or don't do it. Me though, I would never write off an Okinawan karate master 'cause his form looked good (pretty).
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But then again, you're trying to recruit self-defense students who will never aspire to the strict standards of Higaonna.
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So good luck with all of that....

We have venues where Okinawan karate masters or their students are more than welcome to step up and show the world their prowess. Such venues even exist in Japan and other parts of Asia.

The fact that not a single one has stepped up should speak volumes.

 

[drop bear]

Bwahaha.
/sigh.

You are more than welcome to go to okinawa and call him out. Dont be surprised if one of his students whip the snot outta ya first and then admit they themselves are not ready to tackle the Grandmaster of his organization.

He is a tough guy made tough by doing his father's karate.

I dont see a lot of TMA critics flying out to Okinawa to actually test the Karate schools. In the old days, it was surprisingly common for a teacher to get challenged.
If you won the teach usually would retire.
If you lost... you would become his student.

Some schools honor od ways.

He is more than welcome to come to airlie beach and call me out.

Something something about how cool my training is. And how nobody challenges me because they are too scared.

And from that we can conclude that we are obviously both world class martial artists and resolve that we should never meet lest the resulting conflict destroys the earth.

 

[drop bear]

We can all agree that McDojos are bad, I can, you can, Joe Rogan can, a marginally introspective chicken can, it's like the evil twin of motherhood and apple pie.
If that's all Joe Rogan were saying, there wouldn't be a discussion.
The point for Joe Rogan is ... if you're saying that McDojos are bad, then say that McDojos are bad and *don't* over-generalize (stereotype) to 'Kung Fu'... hundreds of martial art systems, thousands of clubs and millions of practitioners.
That's sloppy communication. Sloppy communication drives sloppy thought drives sloppy action.
Like not recovering the hip from kicks.
Joe Rogan misidentifies the problem. Wrong problem wrong solution. Then I doubt that McDojo-ism is his driving concern.

Joe Rogan and his pal Nic Gregoriades trade in stereotypes. Repeatedly from their soap boxes. These aren't one-off casual remarks.
They poison the well for newcomers.

If McDojos and training methods are open for criticism, so are Joe and Nic for their repeated public comments.
If martial arts are to be held to a high standard, so *must* communication about martial arts.

A common theme I hear in MMA circles is 'science' / 'empiricism'. I like the idea. I admire Drop Bears' approach to his training. It's a positive can-do attitude. It's also *fun*.

I think Rogan subscribes to this idea of doing science when he talks of MMA as "the science of fighting". He also styles himself as a scientific skeptic on a number of issues.

An empirical approach to your own training is relatively easy to accomplish. An empirical comparison between techniques -> training methods -> principles -> martial arts systems is increasingly difficult.

A central claim made by Joe Rogan is 'effectiveness'. I have yet to see Joe Rogan define effectiveness in a way that is measurable, that we can at least in theory put numbers to. So the problem is ill defined. So we are not doing science yet. So Joe talking in no uncertain terms is hubris.

Science is a high bar.

Rogan's hypothesis is that 'Kung Fu' are stuffed with sub-optimal techniques as a result of not sparring, and his evidence is an illogical claim about the effectiveness of a backfist vs an overhand right and talking of the effectiveness of a technique (monkey fist) which he isn't sure exists (!) Not rigorous and not scientific. Plenty of shaky assumptions there too.

Science has peer review which is a low pass filter on communications. The internets by comparison has no filter and no marginal competence. Bad ideas infects minds and spreads through and changes cultures. The same tired old discredited themes recirculate instead of dying out.




Hyperbole, ridicule and stereotype. Rhetorical devices, not good communication. Not scientific nor productive.

Then you would go to simplest terms. Does martial art come with evidence. Mma does,boxing does,bjj kick boxing and so on.

Does kung fu? Sanda does mabye a few others. But a lot don't. Which is much more stark and brutal than Joe rogans commentary.

 

[elder999]

The fact that not a single one has stepped up should speak volumes.

How is that a "fact?"

 

[renc]

The fact that not a single one has stepped up should speak volumes.

Expecting evidence to present itself whilst drawing a conclusion from its absence would underwhelm a scientist.

 

[Hanzou]

How is that a "fact?"

There's examples of Okinawan karate masters winning in NHB competitions?

Where?

 

[elder999]

There's examples of Okinawan karate masters winning in NHB competitions?

Where?

You're the one making definitive statements, not me: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[Hanzou]

You're the one making definitive statements, not me: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

And you're the one saying that my statement that there's no Okinawan karate masters in NHB or MMA isnt a fact.

 

[drop bear]

And you're the one saying that my statement that there's no Okinawan karate masters in NHB or MMA isnt a fact.

If you make a statement you have to prove it. So if it is a fact that there no Okinawan karate masters in nhb you have to show that which of course you can't do. Facts have sources.
(I know we have walked down the road to insane town before with this idea but that is the generally accepted way to go.)

But what the issue is here is a case of terminology. What you should have said is there is no evidence of Okinawan karate masters performing in nhb or mma.

Which I would not have a clue either way.

But there are probably guys who do Okinawan karate who do mma. Is kyokkushin Okinawan? Cos then there are a few fairly decent guys running around.

Otherwise I bet the Japanese Kudo team has some krotty guys as well. But regardless none of these guys are defined by methods like kata or demos and so on. The common element will generally be they train like fighters.

 

[ShotoNoob]

We have venues where Okinawan karate masters or their students are more than welcome to step up and show the world their prowess. Such venues even exist in Japan and other parts of Asia.

The fact that not a single one has stepped up should speak volumes.

\
That's a valid point. Yet one that has been addressed before through other venues & forums. Your point, while valid, is not conclusive.
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For a counterpoint, the Gracie's stepped into MMA and soon gained an aura of invincibility. So BJJ became the new martial religion.
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Then came along some true MMA talent the likes of Matt Hughes. The Gracie style was flattened like a pancake with MMA striking & wrestling.
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I have faced the same attitude as from yourself when other karate traditionalist's failed against kick boxers, boxers, grapplers -- or even other aggressive & physically intimidating members @ my dojo.. Because one trains the form of a style, doesn't mean they represent the style competently. I've defeated opponent after opponent when the vast majority @ my school initially thought I had no chance.
\
May be the Okinawan's are busy training true to karate standards and don't desire the fairly pitiful risk / reward of an MMA career? A distinct possibility.

 

[ShotoNoob]

OK, YOU ASKED FOR IT. HERE I AM IN ALL MY GLORY!

We have venues where Okinawan karate masters or their students are more than welcome to step up and show the world their prowess. Such venues even exist in Japan and other parts of Asia.

The fact that not a single one has stepped up should speak volumes.

\

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Notice "i've" mustered enough athletics to hipty-hop spin wheel kick the board. It's that darndedededed backfist nobody "eats very often."
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Shake it out, shake it out. Yeah us TKD guys just need to shake it out to do the cool break. Break board, cool-Oh.
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Why we see TKD sometimes pull through in MMA. Nothing speaks volumes Hanzou like "Shake it out."
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Edit: Notice how the rest of the class is vigorously working out in preparation for their future MMA careers... Why aren't they working harder? Well TKD is nifty cool, let's shake it out and clap, clap, clap Billy-sue's nifty TKD technique. Speaks volumes about the how the real way to fight is to ditch TKD & train Joe Rogan-MMA (Rogan should have a vid-set out anytime now, dont' you think?).
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Edit2: Notice how the 2 TKD Master's (black gi's) get involved. Their ministrations & all their moral support doesn't aid in breaking the board. Funny. They mus'ta thought they were that Kiai Master for a moment, the one you all panned......
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Edit3: LOL.
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Edit4: Send this guy a plane ticket to Michigan. Fed x right away....

 

[ShotoNoob]

[edit]

Otherwise I bet the Japanese Kudo team has some krotty guys as well. But regardless none of these guys are defined by methods like kata or demos and so on. The common element will generally be they train like fighters.

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More "Self Defense" school dogma. Snore.

 

[drop bear]

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More "Self Defense" school dogma. Snore.

Well that seems the trend for successful fighters. There is no evidence that suggests that kata has been the defining actor in the majority of fighters. I don't even know of a minority of fighters that use kata soley or even as the bulkof their traning. It. Tends to be used as a supplemental training.

Arts like Kudo,like kyokkushin, like sanda and any other art that could actually show a proven result,spar. They spar hard and with good people. They invest in conditioning and fitness. And they are evoking martial artists.

These trends have been repeated club to club,system to system.

 

[drop bear]

May be the Okinawan's are busy training true to karate standards and don't desire the fairly pitiful risk / reward of an MMA career? A distinct possibility.

So they avoid competition because they dont want to risk loosing and therefore loosing their standings as martial artists.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So they avoid competition because they dont want to risk loosing and therefore loosing their standings as martial artists.

That's it, you have uncovered the hidden secret of non-competitive martial arts, however shall we live down the shame of being found out?

 

[RTKDCMB]

I dont see a lot of TMA critics flying out to Okinawa to actually test the Karate schools.

And you probably won't. It's all talk, people say a lot of things. I have had a few people criticizing me over the years when they heard I study a martial art, saying things like they would easily take me or that if they did this I would have no way to stop them but not one of them, ever, has tried to test their 'theory' because it's all talk.

 

[renc]

Then you would go to simplest terms. Does martial art come with evidence.

What evidence are you looking for?

Which is much more stark and brutal than Joe rogans commentary.

Stark and brutal - and accurate, logical and productive is fine. Rogan's isn't.

 

[renc]

And you're the one saying that my statement that there's no Okinawan karate masters in NHB or MMA isnt a fact.

No he didn't...