Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[JowGaWolf]

Actually most people use guns, most people use knives. A crazy minority uses weapons from centuries ago.

The point is this; If you want to train in weapons, it makes more sense to learn how to use a gun, or take a FMA and learn to use knives and batons. You can actually carry those around and protect yourself. The idea that learning an ancient Chinese sword form from the 12th century is a good idea for self defense purposes is pretty laughable.

Yes most people use guns and knives. The point is that its a weapon and is still used as a weapon.

 

[TSDTexan]

What was so funny about my first post on this?

As someone with direct and relevant experience with aiki ken, and some experience with actual Japanese katana work, I can tell you that the focus of aiki ken, and the product of its training, has very little to do (for most) with actually using a sword in combat. It's all about body mechanics, and lessons that translate into empty hand movement. That isn't to say that someone who trained in aiki-ken couldn't bash someone decently enough with a stick....but they're not "swordsmen."

Yes. They are not yet ready to go out into pre-Meji-restoration Japan and mix it up on the battlefield, With real Shogun Era samurai.

Eh... this might make you laugh.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Guns are great til it jams or is out of ammo.

Every weapon has a weakness. From what I understand the 21ft rule is one, it's probably less because I can't see myself charging at someone from 21 feet. Depending on the length of the blade that distance becomes even smaller.

Some states in the U.S. make it illegal to walk with a sword in public, or have a knife with a blade of a certain length, yet people can walk with a gun in public. My guess is that these laws are put there because of the true danger that blade weapons present. To have more restrictions on bladed weapons then on guns, especially since as hanzou put it, most people don't carry swords.

 

[Hanzou]

People give Wing Chun a hard time. Maybe because it hasnt done well in ufc. However, if a WC guy just happens to live in a jurisdiction where blades are permitted as SD and he just happens to live in a bad side of town... you would definitely develop an appreciation for the butterfly swords.

This art is pretty old, and comes out of white crane which is far older and white crane has sword forms that can done with butterflies.

Again, in what scenario would you seriously be carrying around twin butterfly swords? Wouldn't it be more practical to learn how to use a butterfly knife, or a baton?

You can keep a butterfly knife (balisong) in your pocket, or you can have a collapsable baton on your keychain. Also the arts that teach you how to use those weapons have pretty solid disarms and defenses against knife attacks.

Again, something you're far more likely to encounter than a Manchu warrior armed with a pike, or a fully armored samurai warrior on horseback.

Dont knock it because it is old. A blade of steel a foot long or longer is a viable form of sd. Don't let prejudice make you blind. Because the training is old.

No it's not. People tend to not carry machetes or swords with them to theaters, work, shopping centers, or sports events.

At least not in the industrialized world.

Guns are great til it jams or is out of ammo.
Knives are short and swords are long. I would say a machete is more sword than knife.

The Boxer Rebellion resolved that argument over 100 years ago.

 

[TSDTexan]

Again, in what scenario would you seriously be carrying around twin butterfly swords? Wouldn't it be more practical to learn how to use a butterfly knife, or a baton?

You can keep a butterfly knife (balisong) in your pocket, or you can have a collapsable baton on your keychain. Also the arts that teach you how to use those weapons have pretty solid disarms and defenses against knife attacks. Again, something you're far more likely to encounter than a Manchu warrior armed with a pike, or a fully armored samurai warrior on horseback.



No it's not. People tend to not carry machetes or swords with them to theaters, work, shopping centers, or sports events.

At least not in the industrialized world.



The Boxer Rebellion resolved that argument over 100 years ago.

When I lived in Texas, I found myself with a machete daily clearing land occupationaly. When I went in Mexico which was 3 or 4 times a year, and outside of San Miguel... I carried a chete everywhere.

Sometimes I carried butterflies. I learned butterflies from my Judo Coach who was a WC man. I stopped doing Judo after my second sholder sepperation. While recuperating he had me doing blade work.

You will find machetes in almost every third world country.
It IS viabile there. Pethaps not so much where you are.
But if SHTF a machete or BF swords with training will be better than knuckles.

 

[Hanzou]

When I lived in Texas, I found myself with a machete daily clearing land occupationaly. When I went in Mexico which was 3 or 4 times a year, and outside of San Miguel... I carried a chete everywhere.

I'd be carrying a lot more than a machete if I was walking through some parts of Mexico.

Just saying.

Sometimes I carried butterflies. I learned butterflies from my Judo Coach who was a WC man. I stopped doing Judo after my second sholder sepperation. While recuperating he had me doing blade work.

Hopefully he taught you how to use knives, not butterfly swords.

You will find machetes in almost every third world country.
It IS viabile there. Pethaps not so much where you are.
But if SHTF a machete or BF swords with training will be better than knuckles.

Hence why I said the industrialized world. Again, if I'm traveling through the third world, I'd be carrying way more than just a machete.

 

[geezer]

Yes. They are not yet ready to go out into pre-Meji-restoration Japan and mix it up on the battlefield, With real Shogun Era samurai.

Eh... this might make you laugh.

They subdued him with a hose, a ladder and an animal noose! Animal control!

Absolutely hilarious.

 

[geezer]

Again, in what scenario would you seriously be carrying around twin butterfly swords? Wouldn't it be more practical to learn how to use a butterfly knife, or a baton? .

Not so practical. Butterfly knives -- Balisongs that is, are illegal to carry in many locals, as are collapsible batons. On the other hand, where I live, guns can be carried openly or concealed most public places without a permit. Some consider carrying almost a civic duty. Lacking a gun, an ordinary locking knife is a popular alternative.

Carrying guns in AZ, a civic duty!

Personally, I depend on avoiding conflict. Failing that, I practice a lot identifying and using improvised weapons available in the kinds of places I frequent. I'm short, middle-aged, polite and unassuming, and sometimes ...angry. Call me Lester. Check this clip 1:10 - 1:20:

 

[TSDTexan]

They subdued him with a hose, a ladder and an animal noose! Animal control!

Absolutely hilarious.

Cause beanbag shotshells don't work on crazy

 

[TSDTexan]

Cause beanbag shotshells don't work on crazy

Dont forget the ladder

 

[ShotoNoob]

The scientific method does not require everything to be personally witnessed as they happen in real time. If it did then chemical reactions and the atomic nucleus would not pass either. The pressure testing I assume you are referring to (full contact competition fighting) is not the only line of evidence for the determination of an arts effectiveness or the effectiveness of any of its techniques.

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Good one RTKDCMB. Good to see the TMA emphasis on PRINCIPLES.
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BTW: Thought I saw one of your TKD kata's on YT... Now if only the TKD sport competitors could latch on to that training....

 

[ShotoNoob]

HA, HA, fair enough. ONE I could say I over-replied to your post on the 3x times better....

I am not sure what you mean here.

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That's ok. many @ my dojo don't understand me either...

Generally myself and those in my school do not do instructional videos of that sort, you might find some basic techniques and stances or patterns but not board breaking of self defense instructional videos. We have the philosophy of 'if you want to learn something come to class and learn it properly'. It can be irresponsible to teach some things online (I have seen people break their hands on just two boards), in other words "kids, don't try this at home'.

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Well, I think you're being overly critical of LAsZLO. If he wants to post an instructional video, he can; just like you can post your demo's for whatever reason.
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Of course the whole traditional karate / TKD / TKD model of coming to classes on a regular schedule is the proper way to train. Once a certain level of proficiency is gained, one can practice outside of class. The standard class training is always a good approach, IMO... and I heavily endorse same.
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Your clear emphasis on the traditional training methods should put your school @ the upper end of the choices for serious practitioners. BTW, I am impressed by Laszlo's serious demeanor.... I'm going to see if I can find that TKD kata (poomsae?) I think you have on YT.
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OTOH, if someone like me watches a cake baking demo on YT and then assumes I can bake a quality cake off the bat.... well, I would never assume my first cakes would turn out to the the new rave. again, let's be serious....

I generally don't break boards down like that because it is easier to break that way, if that were the case I would just foot stomp on them. I break them like that because they are downward techniques. I have broken the same amount of boards with a punch in the horizontal direction.

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Well, I've seen common demos of breaking that way. Foot stomp is better self defense many times. So TKD is self defense oriented the way you train... more goodness. The Gracie rolling all around might happen & become necessary -- it's not where one wants to go, ever.... for SD.
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The standard karate curriculum starts with the lunge or middle punch, at torso height. Specific target is the solar plexus. Stance is horse stance or lunge / front stance. That is the traditional punching standard off the bat. In my mind, then, the introductory board breaking should be exactly the same exercise.
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Actually, my current dojo and most karate schools start board breaking otherwise. These still use a middle level punch, but use the reverse punch from a front stance. This is easier because one's punch is closer to one's center of gravity & the involvement of hip is maximized by the reverse hand striking off of the rear leg.
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Our school even deviates from this and currently uses a reverse elbow strike which is easier because the stroke is shorter and there is more mass in the forearm which furthermore is easier to leverage one's body weight into the strike.
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Lot's of structural helping new students make the break...

Now I did the downward break on 3 boards first because I wanted to see how much resistance 3 boards would have in the punch before doing it horizontally but I broke the 3 boards with a downward strike because I had never tried breaking boards that way before (it was always with tiles before that).

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Makes sense.

How so?

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I have to go back and read your quote...

And how am I less disciplined, based on our respective videos?

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This is tricky over the internet 'cause we are trying to convey mental concepts & principals which are intangibles physically... though the physical results can be empirically witnessed.
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I've posted extensively on this here @ MT. Just let me say that mind / body unity is key. On the dominating factor in mind / body unity, it is the mind which is directing the physical movement. This is separate & distinct from the similar looking good body mechanics of athletics & sport activity including sport fighting, where muscle memory & quick reactions carry the day. In TMA or traditional karate we have the conscious mental direction controlling the movements at all times. KIME is the essential mental building block here. However, the Shotokan karate manual spells out several additional mental concepts & principles which are always in action. These have been the subject of threads @ MT.[/quote]

How so?

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I have to go reread your quote.

That is conjecture as there is nothing in my videos that even hints at being unable to deal with sweeps. I have not included any sparring or anything that would suggest that is true.

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On a purely technical basis, your objection of 'conjecture' is correct. Traditional karate or TMA is not defined by technical s. But your question is valid & demands an answer.... TMA or traditional karate is defined by principles.... So by extension of mental discipline, that principle, your physical movements in the board breaking indicate a wanting in mental discipline. Hence when you are forced to make an adjustment like Bertel's opponent was when Bertel swept him (aided by some of the undisciplined sport exaggeration in his opening strike gambit by the opponent which then put himself in a weak, high stance), your reactive, improper movement will cause you to be vulnerable.
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That's a general description to premise the issue. Of course I need to be more specific in order to honor your request. BTW, this is where Rogan-ites go off the rails. A more readily observable example of this is when Rogan states that his TKD kicking left him unprepared for boxer hand fighters. HUH? As you demonstrate very well, and your board breaking demos really drive home, TKD is all about being effective + powerful with hands.... So Rogan clearly leveraged off his athletic kicking skills to dominate in sport fighting,,,,, and completely omitted serious study of the application of hand techniques presented in the traditional TKD curriculum. WOW!
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That is a lack of thinking mental discipline in one's training = karate fail.
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Hope that gives you a start....
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EDIT: On the mind, reactions & instincts as K_MAN would say, are involved & engaged. The conscious, thinking mind, however, is kind of like the chairman of the board, always alert & intent on changing one's action's into a new direction at any moment on a second's notice.

 

[ShotoNoob]

RTKDCMB: Here's a look @ you how so's. I really like the Laszlo demo for FORM. IT'S THE PRINCIPLES OF MENTAL DISICPLINE BEHIND THE OUTWARD FORM THAT MAKE'S HIS DEMO COMPETENT.

Hey, some here like to poke fun @ me. Here's a board breaking demo that is superior to RTKDCMB's demos. And it's presented by a dorky looking / dorky acting instructor similar to me.... so all that want a good laugh on my account, pay attention....

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As dorky as this guy is (I am), he does a good presentation of board breaking form, IMO.
[edit]
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edit: Here's the Shotokan demo vid equation: Sound body mechanics + Disciplined KIME = Disabling Effect.

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I'll try to do this point by point.
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1. ON LASZLO'S LEAD IN EXPLANATION. Guy's got 'dork' written all over him. So what is the value of us dorks. Intelligent thinking. keys right into the recipe for mental discipline. Laszlo is exactingly deliberated & detailed @ what he's going to do and how he's going to do it. So in that sense, dorky personality is perfect for training mentally disciplined action... the latter what really makes karate work over sports.
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2. LASZLO DESCRIBES THE BREAKING MECHANICS. Once the board in place, he shows concisely how to position for the break, where he will strike, the choice of weapon (technique) he will apply & the physical motion he will employ. Notice, however, he uses a reverse punch, which is easier than the standard front or lunge punch. THIS approach IS CALLED THE tma / traditional karate base.
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Also notice he approaches with the kihon karate stance he calls a "walking stance," to me a standard front or high lunge stance. The purpose of that kihon stance is to enable one to [mentally disciplined] call upon & draw upon all the internal & external strength of the entire body and place it into the intent to complete that break. KIME is the driver, mentally. The body works under the auspices of KIME.
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3. LASZLO'S FORM. Notice Laszlo doesn't move off balance or out of his stance. both legs remain squarely planted. His body mechanics are tight & controlled, no extraneous movements or wiggle-waggling around. He uses a short 'windup,' a bit unnatural yet accurate chambering for the strike. The purpose of the chambering is to facilitate, like the 'walking' stance, the 2nd paragraph in Pioint2. above. In a sense, this helps Laszlo put his center of gravity into the strike.
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4. TMA / TKD IS ALL ABOUT MIND / BODY UNITY. Also note how Laszlo breaks the board without any kiai. Moreover, he is not straining, stressing, overcompensating through extra windups, extra - excessive body movement, contortions or jerky muscle tension attempting to 'force,' the break - some of which were evident in your demos. The use of KIAI is competent & helps foster, create & can supercharge the KIME. Laszlo has sufficient KIME power without the Kiai, with breathing alone. Laszlo's pretty relaxed, really.
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There are some additional kumite-level qualities in Laszlo's form, but this is enough to think about. Laszlo demo, he's got the principles of karate power down pretty darn good. Yes guys, dorky Laszlo's got karate.... He exudes other key mental martial qualities in his execution of that break.
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5. LEST I FORGET, THE TARGET. Laszlo also make a definite point of where to strike the board in order to succeed @ the break. And his KIME does that right on target. Not here, not there, not like MMA striking typically throwing haphazard strikes out there hoping to catch the opponent (most of sport karate equally guilty) -- Laszlo is precisely on target. No need, really to be some big weight lifter to smash with massive brute force. Laszlo has the capability to readily knock one into starry land.
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Hope that helps.... Laszlo luv ya.

 

[ShotoNoob]

RTKDCMB... spotted your suspended-in-air spinning back / hook ? kick board break YT vid. Take that TMA / TKD critics... How Wonderboy cleaned Ellenberger's clock, who had a entire pre-match YT vid devoted to ridiculing such 'karate nonsense.'
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EDIT: just cam across a reverse - Laszlo vid... karate-not... looks to be TKD school... later.

 

[JowGaWolf]

They subdued him with a hose, a ladder and an animal noose! Animal control!

Absolutely hilarious.

ha ha ha..that's the power of the sword. This is what the bring out for someone who has a sword and two machetes.
As many swords that police have to deal with you would think that they would have some kind of body armor that would allow them to just walk in and light him up with a taser.

 

[drop bear]

That looks like a blast, frankly.

Yeah would totally do it. Words look like they are a hundred bucks which is about a set of gloves. So doable.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know. I just know one person had a stick and basically clubbed the guy without a stick (weapon vs no weapon). No awareness either because the guy without the stick moved away from the stick when he should have been moving in towards the stick (mark 0:46)

OK. So a bunch of guys and a weapon can beat down a pro fighter. I am happy to go with that.

I am not sure how you are making a link to anything there.

 

[drop bear]

At the moment I'm training to fight using the staff against unarmed people and untrained people. The techniques in the staff form that I know have attacks that can be use against both unarmed people and armed people. I haven't quite mastered connecting the power from my waist to my staff with all my techniques. I don't have the skull cracking power with all of my techniques as well.

This is similar to the staff form that my lineage does. The form I use has many of the techniques in these videos just not in the same order.

I go about the same speed as well because I don't have enough strength and connection with my body to the staff to do full force without my staff throwing me around. The slow speed is because the staff they are using are heavier than what you see many karate practitioners use. To give you an idea of how light some karate staffs are, skip to the 0:26 mark and watch it actually hit some people. Clearly not a fighting weapon being used.

So how do you know that works better than wild swinging? Who have you tested it on?

I don't know if it works or doesn't to find out I would have to get a stick and beat on someone with it. This is the same way I test all my martial arts.

I have done stick and knife by the way. I am not confident in the practicality of all but the simplest stuff.

Hand trapping was something I could never pull off safely. Nobody could pull off hand trapping safely on me. And I would not have known that if I did not test with resistance.

 

[drop bear]

I think the bokken armed Aikidoka would do even better.
But youtube counts in dropbears system of evidence.

Guy with a stick > mma fighter.

Based on evidence? Or feelings. Some things that seem intuitive or sensible. Just don't work.

 

[drop bear]

You start with the false assumption that just because I have a sword (or knife, or whatever) that it is drawn. I do not have to choose to drawn the weapon.
If I did have it in hand, I could certainly choose to use it in any number of ways that are unlikely to be lethal.
You slap. I could block your slap using the flat of the blade. I could slap your head with the flat of the blade. I could inflict a superficial cut to your arm by blocking with the edge. I could cut you on various other body parts, in ways and locations that are very unlikely to be fatal. I could inflict more serious (but still survivable) cuts to the torso. I could do my best to remove your arm. I could run you through.
This is by no means a complete list of the options available.



Mostly, with the weapon being fired. Doesn't necessarily mean a fatal shot. of course. Statistically, the police will miss with roughly 3/4 of their shots. So it's reasonable to assume that if that entire 30% results in a weapon being fired, most will still result in no injury.

That is some pretty extreme mental gymnastics. But OK the non leathal version of guns and swords is to not use them. Or to miss.and to be honest trying to block a punch with a sword sounds like trying to shoot a robber in the leg.

But I get it in America guns are not for killing people unlike every other country in the world. And the deaths are just unhappy accidents.

Guns in Australia are (in my opinion) justly considered leathal force. Plain and simple. You point them at people you intend to kill. Not threaten. Not deter and not miss. I treat gun carry when I use it.(which is not often) pretty seriously and treat it as a responsibility. Not a right. And honestly do not see myself changing my stance on this any time soon.